LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

[CAhobbit]

Did he lie to Hurley when trying to get Jack to the lighthouse or did he just not tell the whole story? I seem to recall he didn't reveal all the information to Hurley as to why Jack had to come to the lighthouse, not that he told some kind of outright lie (ie: the whole line from Hurley about wanting to know everything next time). Of course it's been a few weeks, so I'm hazy, ha!

Frankly we don't know who gave the order to kill dharma town and whether Locke was dead upon falling out of the building. I'm more inclined to think Locke did die from that fall, but that's not been confirmed (and may never be).

Seems strange that Jacob would go to great lengths to keep Locke living though (if he in fact did die in the fall) if he had some kind of future knowledge of events that might happen (ie: Smokey taking over the look of Locke and ultimately causing Jacobs physical demise).

 

[Entropy]

Examples of Jacob lying:

When he told Hurley to take Jack to the lighthouse to signal a coming ship.

We don't know that Jacob did not want them to really signal the coming ship as well; he did later say "I'm sure they'll find some other way." So while he again withheld info, I think it was technically not a lie.

Examples of Jacob killing:

Probably commanding Widmore to have the whole Dharma town killed in the 70's. (Widmore was in charge at this time so it may have been just his own order.)

Exactly who ordered and planned the Purge remains unclear, although it appears Charles Widmore was the leader at the time. ("Dead Is Dead") Ben seemed to take responsibility ("Not so long ago, Jack. I made a decision, that took the lives of over forty people in a single day") ("Through the Looking Glass, Part 1") but also stated that the Purge "wasn't (his) decision" because he answered to someone. ("Cabin Fever"). But we know Jacob never spoke to Ben. Again, we haven't seen Jacob kill anyone by his own hand or heard him order someone to kill.

Seems strange that Jacob would go to great lengths to keep Locke living though (if he in fact did die in the fall) if he had some kind of future knowledge of events that might happen (ie: Smokey taking over the look of Locke and ultimately causing Jacobs physical demise).

Nah. Course correction, it would've happened anyway. Jacob's death, while not necessarily something he relished, was a necessary link in the chain of events that will eventually defeat MiB, complete Jack's arc and rebalance the scales, or destroy the scales entirely I suppose.

 

[LOTRFan]

If God watches and manipulates humans, do you view that as evil? If Jacob does it apparently it is. If God allows a good person to die and does not intervene, is he evil? Apparently if Jacob does he is.

My point is that a character like the Judeo-Christian God behaves this way in his stories, specially the Book of Job, and is generally considered to be a figure of "good", if Jacob behaves in the same observant but detached manner in his story, why should he then be viewed as "evil" for the same behavior? I don't see how you can possibly view their stories as completely different or separate. And regardless of your religious views, you do know it's not only ok, but actually very powerful and insightful to compare fictional and non fictional characters, right?

Exactly why I brought up the famous trilemma related to the problem of evil.

 

[Shropt]

Frankly we don't know who gave the order to kill dharma town and whether Locke was dead upon falling out of the building. I'm more inclined to think Locke did die from that fall, but that's not been confirmed (and may never be).

This reminds me of a little known fact about the original Star Wars. Did you know that when the Tusken Raider attacked Luke and Obi wan came and touched his head that Luke was dead. It's true. Luke actually died in that scene and Obi brought him back to life. I'm sure this has since been changed by Lucas but that was the original story.

Oh, and I agree with everyone's arguments about my points. None of the points were 100% lies or kills and this proves again how well the writers have kept everything soooo open.

 

[Entropy]

I heard that story but thought it was Alec Guinness that healed Mark Hamill.


Just watching the Lighthouse ep again...

Assuming the skeletons are Jack and Kate and that the MiB knew this and lead Jack to discover them, then the MiB wants Jack to know he will go back in time and die on the island? Will he reveal this info to Jack? If Jack becomes the caretaker and somehow gives Jacob the list of the 815ers and foreknowledge of the things to come, would this knowledge of becoming the skeletons discourage Jack from making that choice to eventually die on the island in the distant past, esp if MiB gives him another option? And if there are 2 stones 1 black and 1 white, does that mean Jack was claimed by Jacob and Kate claimed by MiB?

If Jack and Kate loved each other up in the caves did they produce a kid? Could that kid be MiB himself? Surely he couldn't prevent his own birth? And if this were true, how did he become this bodiless force of darkness? He says he lost humanity and presumably became shape shifting smokey because of Jacob, but did the evil power that must be bottled up and kept from the world come from Jacob also or a previous MiB? Doesn't make sense that one "deity"' would create his dark balancing opposite but it's a staple in many stories. I doubt they'd go that deep down the rabbit hole but you never know with Lost.

 

[pixletwin]

Its not jack and kate. They have to be Rose and Bernard.

 

[Entropy]

Its not jack and kate. They have to be Rose and Bernard.

why? because rose and bernard are black and white and were left in 1977? I can't think of any payoff that would be satisfying or interesting, especially since Darlton said in interviews when we see the skeleton reveal we will know they had planned it from the very beginning episode. But I suppose it's slightly possible that a mystery they have planted from the very first episode, guarded closely, hinted at for years and waited until the very end of the show's run to reveal could turn out to be a ho-hum payoff, black & white stone = black & white skin, of a couple of boring side characters that have no relevance to the Big Story and that the writers have hardly dealt with.

 

[Maglor]

Very interesting good/evil--light/dark debate here. I tend to be on Entropy's side.

life/healing. Rose and Locke. But depends if you think Locke died in the fall, I do, or if Jacob via the Island healed Rose's cancer and Locke's paralysis. Also Jacob's statue Tarawet is the goddess of life and birth, MiB is associated with Anubis, god of death. Could also be the reason Jacob had no power to bring Isabella back, rather than him simply choosing not to.

I don't recall that ever being stated or implied. Where is that from?


The above quote got me thinking about Christian Shepherd. He has been unique in that his body went missing. I don't think that he is a manifestation of MiB. Perhaps he really was brought back to life by Jacob...


...but then the scene with him and Claire in the cabin seems kind of weird...



What do you all think is the deal with Christian?

 

[Entropy]

The Anubis drawing depicting Smokey in front of it was in the ruined outer wall of the Temple Ben fell into.

Christian and Yemi's bodies were both missing. Yemi was definitely MiB and I believe Christian was too.

 

[Lookin4Precious]

Just a note, as I haven't heard anybody say it in reading through the pages of talkback this brilliant episode resulted in....

LOST is all about reversing what was thought to be true. Showing us something, then showing us that what we saw was in fact, not what we thought it was. We know this. So I find it funny that NOBODY has offered up the theory (and in this particular case, what I actually believed to be true immediately) that the ship we saw during The Incident, Part 1 was NOT the Black Rock.

During that episode, Jacob and MIB talked about how Jacob had been bringing people to the island for a long time and running them through the gauntlet of ISLAND fun... how else would he be bringing people to the island back then? By ship seems to be the only obvious method of arrival... so although we believed that the ship we saw during the day in The Incident, Part 1 was the Black Rock (and why wouldn't we?) having seen the Black Rocks actual arrival, it now makes LESS sense to assume that Jacob conjured up this epic storm/tsunami to bring the ship ashore and in the process turned day to night... than it does to assume that ship sailing of the coast beneath the sun was simply one in a long line of ships Jacob brought to the island, and that the Black Rock arrived later, and at night.

 

[a-dev]

How is it that I haven't the slightest clue whats going on in this show but I still very much enjoy it. I think its been one of the most consistently interesting shows I've ever watched. Its also very pretty.

 

[tomandshell]

The title of the series finale is:

Spoiler

"The End"

What does Tomandshell have to say about this? He does have a degree from Lost U and thus his opinion has more heft.

That's too funny!

I am still absorbing this week's episode. I am philosophically in agreement with MIB that there is a tendency within our human nature that predisposes us (to one degree or another) towards corruption. A roomful of four year olds will not naturally share a single toy. We are selfish creatures, and the pressures and influence of authority figures in an organized society are what keep us in check throughout our formative years--without those, it would be Lord of the Flies every time. However, we also have the potential for nobility and self sacrifice. The trick is that we all have a mix of both--none of us are as good (or as bad) as we could be, and we end up somewhere in the middle. Slap a label on someone and that might begin to influence/determine their actions (Sayid), but deep down inside things are still more complex than our simplistic labels allow--everyone on the show is "corrupt" in some way or another and has either lied, cheated, stolen or killed at some point over the last six seasons. But they have also had their heroic moments as well.

Lost has often blurred the lines between "good" and "bad" and I would be shocked if their climactic battle between good and evil ended up very clearly defined and clean cut on both sides. MIB has become far more sympathetic this season, and Jacob was a bit of a jerk last night. Saying that one is "good" and the other is "bad" is neither dramatically interesting nor accurate to the human condition. Hitler might have once helped an old lady across the street, while Mother Teresa got mad and kicked a puppy. Can one good deed counteract a lifetime of sins, and/or vice versa?

I would never have expected this show to end up in such an interesting place thematically/theologically/philosophically/existentially/mythologically, but I'm happy with where it seems to be heading with only a handful of weeks left.

 

[ChronoBreak]

I just rewatched the latest episode. Isnt the guy who played as the priest also played Hurley's dad?

 

[Rock83]

I just rewatched the latest episode. Isnt the guy who played as the priest also played Hurley's dad?

No that`s not him.


I was thinking back to season 4 with the flashes back and forth,i remember Sawyer was helping Locke down the hole to turn the wheel,can`t remember if it was the last flash atfer Locke turned the wheel and the hole was not there anymore after the flash,just the rope down in the dirt,but they saw the full Statue right in front of them,which means they flashed all the way back to before 1867 when Richard came to the Island,i wonder what meaning the Flashes has in all of this,i know it is time travel but why it jumped so often back and forth at a short period of time.Seriously,Faraday died WAY TOO EARLY,he died when he counted the most,one of those things that will annoy me until the end.

 

[pixletwin]

why? because rose and bernard are black and white and were left in 1977? I can't think of any payoff that would be satisfying or interesting, especially since Darlton said in interviews when we see the skeleton reveal we will know they had planned it from the very beginning episode. But I suppose it's slightly possible that a mystery they have planted from the very first episode, guarded closely, hinted at for years and waited until the very end of the show's run to reveal could turn out to be a ho-hum payoff, black & white stone = black & white skin, of a couple of boring side characters that have no relevance to the Big Story and that the writers have hardly dealt with.

You are overplaying the significance of the two bodies in the cave. I think most viewers had forgotten about the two skeletons. The subject has hardly been a major mystery nor a major point of discussion until recently. (even now it is hardly a "major" mystery)

I am afraid you can take a seat now with Maglor in the going-to-be-disappointed box to the side of the aisle.

 

[Sidewinder]

Finally we find out about Richard. I always wanted to know his story, so I thought this was a great episode. I really like where they're going with the show and hopefully with only 7 episodes left they can answer the other remaining questions.

 

[Entropy]

You are overplaying the significance of the two bodies in the cave. I think most viewers had forgotten about the two skeletons. The subject has hardly been a major mystery nor a major point of discussion until recently. (even now it is hardly a "major" mystery)

I am afraid you can take a seat now with Maglor in the going-to-be-disappointed box to the side of the aisle.

I beg to differ. And it's not just me. In January, after Barack Obama and his administration moved their State of the Union Address away from February 2 to avoid a conflict with the premiere of Lost's final season, Damon and Carlton said that Obama could ask a question about any unresolved mystery and they would answer it. According to the White House's ABC correspondent Jake Tapper, Obama allegedly asked the identity of Adam and Eve, to which Carlton replied "Good question! Have POTUS call us!"

People have been asking about the skeletons for 6 years now.
What is the meaning or significance of the two skeletons that Jack and Kate found in the cave of season 1?

CUSE: The answer to that question goes to the nature of the timeline of the island. We don't want to say too much about it, but there are a couple Easter eggs embedded in [the Feb. 7 episode], one of which is an anagram that actually sheds some light on the skeletons and hints at a larger mythological mystery that will start to unfold later in the season.

LINDELOF: There were certain things we knew from the very beginning. Independent of ever knowing when the end was going to be, we knew what it was going to be, and we wanted to start setting it up as early as season 1, or else people would think that we were making it up as we were going along. So the skeletons are the living — or, I guess, slowly decomposing — proof of that. When all is said and done, people are going to point to the skeletons and say, ''That is proof that from the very beginning, they always knew that they were going to do this.''

Could be Rose and Bernie, but that would get no more than a shoulder shrug and an eye roll for the lame stones = skin color reveal, when they could, and most likely did, plan it (as they hinted, and I predicted, Locke would become his dark doppelganger in the same pilot ep) to be a significant, possibly shocking payoff.

 

[pixletwin]

Could be Rose and Bernie, but that would get no more than a shoulder shrug and an eye roll for the lame stones = skin color reveal, when they could, and most likely did, plan it (as they did, and I predicted, hinting Locke would become his dark doppelganger in the same pilot ep) to be a significant, possibly shocking payoff.

Clearly you think it's lame, doesn't make it so. I like it. We'll see.

 

[Darthrazz]

Not really a spoiler but JUST in case, I'll put in a spoilertag.


Anyone else think that MIB and Jacob are.....

Spoiler

The same person?

 

[pixletwin]

I sure don't believe that.