LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

[Agent0028]

He must have figured it out on his own, or he wouldn't have been able to tell Desmond in the first place, since it didn't seem he had any recollection of meeting Desmond (since it hadn't happened yet). So had he not told Desmond to tell him that he would have figured it out anyways. But I agree Tom that if too much of that happens it gets infinitely more difficult to explain that simply.

 

[Shropt]

EDIT: OOOH! OOOOH! OOOOH! I GOT IT! The Island is THE GARDEN OF EDEN! The two corpses from season one were ADAM AND EVE! That's why Jacob from the Bible is there... "Jacob's Ladder" was really the first example of time travel. Somehow, Jacob managed to unhinge the Garden of Eden from the time stream the first time he "climbed" Jacob's Ladder. The Island represents the point where the word of God made Man, and the healing powers of the island are the residual effect. When Jacob was climbing the Ladder to Heaven, he ended up in the unhinged Heaven on Earth.... Eden.

And the "monster" is the snake that tempted Eve?

 

[tomandshell]

Did he really learn the secret from his older self, or just the correct settings to make it work???

Well, the older self had the settings from his journal (presumably written post-1996) and was told the settings from his future self. 1996 Daniel was told what to do by 2004 Daniel, who still had his old notes from '96 when he was told what to do by future Daniel. At what point did Daniel ever figure it out on his own?

So 1996 Daniel received second hand information, which he ultimately passed on to himself (via Desmond) in 2004. So it seems like a paradox to me, since I can't figure out where this information was discovered for the first time, and by whom...

 

[Memnoch]

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but **actually** from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.

I think that easily sums up the paradox question. It happened because it was meant to happen and will happen again. Things don't always have to have the right order but they do have to happen.

 

[Shropt]

I still love it when I hear TV shows use the term "Time Space Continuum" which is actually a term from Star Trek and has no scientific origins.

 

[tomandshell]

If I get in a time machine ten years from now and travel back to visit myself on the last day of high school, then my signature is already in the yearbook that's in my closet today, and has been for the last fifteen years. Since I'm not in my yearbook, I know that I will not eventually travel back in time to visit myself and sign my own yearbook. If I do eventually travel back in time, then the original post-1993 timeline ceases to exist (or is never allowed to exist in the first place), and there never is a future version of myself with a signature-free yearbook. The moment I sign that yearbook, I have changed history and the original future never happens (and I cannot return to it because it no longer exists). The fact that I am sitting here existing, post-1993, means that my timeline never ceased to exist.

The biggest problem with Back to the Future II is that Old Biff travels back in time to give himself the sports almanac, and then gets in the time machine and returns to the original future, not the altered future in the new timeline that he created where he is rich and powerful. He can't go back in time and create timeline B and then travel forward from B into timeline A--because it no longer exists.



(And Lonnie, on the last page I hit "edit" instead of "quote"--so that explains why it looks like I edited your post, lol.)

 

[Darth Caedus]

yea, tom, that does indeed make sense when you think about it.

My only question, since it was 1996 desmond that got penny's phone number and the desmond in our time that called her, which desmond ended up in the current desmond body? since desmond called her, that would have to be 1996 desmond right? because that's the desmond that didn't know what was going on in the present and kept going back and forth???

If so, then the desmond from the first three seasons is gone? got his anchor in penny? IF so, how would be know to get his anchor in penny is the 1996 desmond heard that, not the present desmond....my brain hurts.

 

[tomandshell]

This is what makes it interesting--we are talking about a time travel of consciousness only. This kind of sets it apart from most previous time travel concepts. I am anxious to see where they go with it.

I assumed that 2004 Desmond's consciousness ended up back in 2004 Desmond's body, because he recognized Sayid after the phone call. He jumped from 1996, setting the phone call up, to 2004 making the same phone call he was just thinking about. That continuity apparently allowed him to sync back up with his appropriate timeline.

My favorite use of time travel has been in films like 12 Monkeys and Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, where there is one timeline, and all the future time travel has already left its mark on the past (and present). Careful use of the concept (as with J.K Rowling) allows the story to be told without paradox.

 

[Entropy]

So the captain of the black rock eh? So he must have found the island 200 years ago, found out something about it, and now his great-grandson is in cohoots with Wilmore.

Actually I think Alvar Hanso is opposoed to and the enemy of Widmore. Widmore took control of The Hanso Foundation by replacing him on the board with Thomas Mittelwerk. Before he mysteriously disappeared, Hanso said on camera that he was being held prisoner in his own home by his second-in-command at the Hanso Foundation, Thomas Werner Mittelwerk.


paradox speaking...

In a recent interview with Cuse and Lindoff, they discuss this very thing and how they spent a whole morning working it out so that there would not be a paradox. Damon said that he didn't want a Heroes type of story where the time travel made no sense (nice dig at the competition).

LINDELOF: We're not going to tell you that we're against bending the time/space continuum. We are very for it. Carlton and I are PRO time-space continuum bending! But we're ANTI-paradox. Paradox creates issues. In Heroes, Masi Oka's character travels back from the future to say, ''You must prevent New York from being destroyed.'' But if they prevent New York from being destroyed, Masi Oka can never travel back from the future to warn you, because Future Hiro no longer exists. Right? So when we start having those conversations at Lost, we go, ''This show is already confusing enough as it is.'' To actually have characters traveling through time has to be handled very deftly.

CUSE: For example, the fifth episode of the season [airing next week] deals with time travel and operates in different time periods. It was a tough story to break. But we adhere to our rule: no paradox.


I trust that they have worked this all out paradox free, especially since they addressed it in an interview, we just don't have all the info that they do.

https://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2826

 

[Agent0028]

I'm not sure how Lost is any less confusing if they are the only ones who know how there is no paradox.

 

[DarthNeil]

Perhaps you didn't complete the thought - but you know who Odysseus' wife was right? Penelope.

And have to say - that I'm loving the show more than I ever have. 3 solid episodes in a row. The ennui of last season is completely gone for me.

The literary scholar in me loves this point.

Great thoughts--with so much conversation it's obvious that this episode was strong and that LOST is squarely back on track... Too many points to respond... Overloaded... And my eyes are blurry from Desmond's phone call--er, I mean... dust. Yeah, that's the kicker.

 

[Entropy]

We only have pieces to the larger puzzle that is being told. Struggling to understand such a huge plot point as the time discrepancies from one episode seems like an act in futility to me. I'm sure all will be revealed in due time.

And the thought that this story will somehow tie into the Bible story seems wrongheaded.

 

[Memnoch]

All I know is that I want a Lost encyclopedia after the show is over so that I can pour over the details without having to watch hours of television over again.

 

[barryo]

All I know is that I want a Lost encyclopedia after the show is over so that I can pour over the details without having to watch hours of television over again.

amen...........i know i had question after question in my mind that seems to have fallen by the wayside with each new significant revelation. so now i stick to the larger questions and dismiss the ones that in my mind seem insignificant. that may be a strategy that doesnt work because sometimes it is in the little details that reveal the biggest info. thats why this show rocks. every show i say its the last time cuz i want to know now !!!! but i cant..........LOST IS ELECTRONICALLY INDUCED PIXELLATED CRACK !!!!!

 

[JonnyReedie]

sorry to divert slightly,

but do you think the oceanic 6 were the only ones to rescue themselves from being ''lost in time'' meaning everyone else died getting off the island?

also adressing the time issue on the island, do you think the island is somehow in another ''dimension'' and doesnt theoretically have to be bound to the normal laws of time?

it explains alot if thats the case,
one image from season one which stays in my mind s when walt is looking through the comic book and gets attacked by the polar bear, on the page before there is a picture of a planet which is on fire(i think) with an island in a bubble floating over it...

it gives an explanation of the SPECIFIC co-ordinates that must be taken, maybe a possible wormhole?
that separates the island from the real world in all aspects.

what do you think? also if someone could maybe post a screenshot of the comic image it would be much appreciated!

EDIT: never mind, here is the image and its not exactly what i described, i could have sworn it was what i saw, but this IS apparently what i saw....

 

[JonnyReedie]

here is the screen shot from the show, you can see why i thought it was a planet... because it was only shown for a split second.

 

[Entropy]

do you think the oceanic 6 were the only ones to rescue themselves from being ''lost in time'' meaning everyone else died getting off the island?

also adressing the time issue on the island, do you think the island is somehow in another ''dimension'' and doesnt theoretically have to be bound to the normal laws of time?

I do think some of the losties died, but many lived and were left behind. Matthew Abadon asked Hurley "are they still alive?" which leads me to believe yes there are others who are still living on the island.

Also it seems obvious that the island is in a bubble unto itself, unbound by the normal laws and the flow of time for the rest of the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in another dimension or in a wormhole. Even if it is I don't see how that would matter or affect the story in any substantive way. At then end of the day it's established that the island has unique and "magical" properties, the 'why' of these properties is not really important. It's like explaining why Walt has magical Shinning power.... be it because of a mutant gene or that he's half alien or bestowed these powers as an infant from a time traveling witch from the future or whathaveyou... I don't expect detailed concrete answers to questions like these or really even need to know why.

 

[Darklord Dave]

So anyone think the flashforward Jack isn't just wrought up with guilt, but possibly he's unstuck in time just a little bit?

 

[Memnoch]

So anyone think the flashforward Jack isn't just wrought up with guilt, but possibly he's unstuck in time just a little bit?

I do. Makes sense about saying stuff about his dad and the like. I think while this episode did it's usually thing it also gave us possible answers as long as we are open to all possibilities.

 

[Entropy]

So anyone think the flashforward Jack isn't just wrought up with guilt, but possibly he's unstuck in time just a little bit?

It's an interesting thought and certainly a possibility, but ultimately, no I don't think he's a Billy Pilgrim. The oxycontin abuse, lack of nose bleed, suicidal crying over the newspaper thing and the producers saying "We want to work toward a future where Jack is absolutely miserable and wants to go back to the Island" doesn't really lead me to believe he's unstuck from time. If he were suffering from temporal psychosis, an external force responsible for his behavior, I think it would water down his character and the choices he will ultimately make in an effort to return to the island.