MARVEL' S Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Chakor]

Far left. Far right. They both suck . They only want to make money for themselves. The government doesn?t care about you.

 

[ZE_501]

The government doesn?t care about you.

Quoted for truth.

 

[a-dev]

 

[Sassafras]

I gotta stop watching stuff that reminds me of what a fail this show was. For me anyway.

Hopefully any sequels will be drowned in production, since Disney already has a *thrilling* slate lined up.

Now I know how X-men fans must've felt about Dark Phoenix.

 

[JAWS]

Okay, I?m gonna have to be that guy and say, Yep...because you certainly know better than the black writer of the show and the black actor who had to deliver the lines how a black man in America would feel being placed in that position.
You can dislike it, you can be annoyed by it, but I don?t think you are qualified to question how the character would FEEL, which is what the scene was taking about, regardless of whether the concerns would ever come to pass.

I thought about exactly what you wrote when I posted that.. but then I remembered no black or white American has been put into that position of being Captain America. So then we are just dealing with opinions and feelings.

And then I thought.. If there was a cool ass superhero that helped save the world and he was to become the next Captain America would most of America give a **** what the color of his skin was?? There would be some for sure. Hell some of the eyes of hate would probably come from the black community thinking he was a sellout and call him the sort of things that black conservatives get called.

But It would be a minority. IDK it just came off as forced and agenda driven. It does not help that the rest of the speech was a just as goofy.. It felt more like a Disney written speech then what Sam would actually say.

JAWS is black.

Grey on top / White on the bottom

The GREAT WHITE at it again!

View attachment 511632

I'm glad that more people are seeing "Karli" as being one of the single worst (if not THE worst) villains in the history of supervillains. My gosh she was lame. And since a hero is only as good as his villains Cap Falcon is lame as well. She had a terrible look, was annoyingly written, sounded unintimidating and ridiculous ("prepare for bat-oh", lol), and was pathetically overpowered. She can go toe to toe, with no shield, and WIN against an equally enhanced career soldier like Walker? Give me a BREAK.

And then Sam's mopey speech about this ONE idiot terrorist dying? And how we shouldn't "label" murderous TERRORISTS--all from the hands of a writer that you know considers half the country to be "ists" and "phobes?" No it was not a great speech, it went on forever, was eye-rollingly cringy and with the dozen cutaways I was half expecting to see the *boat's* reaction to Sam's preaching on TV. The Isaiah memorial *could* have been quite poignant in a better show but not in this one.

Bucky was made to be a first class idiot and borderline incompetent, Walker's handling was shameful (but Russell himself at least won me over, even in this episode he was the one character I was actually rooting for.) But yes jye I don't know what was going on with his goofy "I'm back, yay" deal at the end. Did Russell show up on set drunk and they just said "we only have time for one take, let's do this," lol

Sam cries over a loser terrorist, makes a big speech about her, and then pardons an apparent villain (wtf) who now has full access to government and military secrets.

Good job for your first day as Cap.

Yep... It was all just awful.

I was able to look past most of the shows issue and found a lot to enjoy.. But those final two episodes.. Yuck... And it just kept getting worse and worse.

 

[JAWS]

Its like the writers of SR read this thread

 

[JAWS]

I have to disagree.


All I have heard on this thread and many other places was how Sam didn?t deserve the shield .......many times it?s just veiled racist nonsense ......although I doubt even the people saying it realize that they are being racist.


Bucky should never have gotten the shield, for anyone paying attention he would be the last person who wanted it and deserved it.

Sam has been represented as Cap 2.0. He has proven his loyalty and honor over and over, more than any other Avenger, he embodies what Cap was when he was Steve.

The whole ?on your left? was designed to showcase him as a selfless person who would always be standing next to Cap when he was needed.

He was literally written to have the shield, it?s was not. Surprise to me he got it at all. People wanted Bucky to have it because of the long standing friendship between Cap and Bucky, but they forget most of the time Bucky was the WS, hardly Caps friend or ?Left side?. As a matter of fact Bucky caused Cap the most misery in his life. He destroyed the Avengers and would never be accepted by the public as Cap. No to mention , Bucky did not want to be Cap!!!! Of course Steve knew this!

Explain why anyone else in the MCU should have gotten the shield besides Sam? Who was the better choice?


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It seems more are upset about Sam getting the shield because it was not what happened in the comics.

Bucky got the shield didnt he?

I dont know.. I for one had no issues with it being Sam. But I had no expectations with who would get the shield next.

Only thing I thought was initially strange about Sam getting the shield was No Superpowers. Seemed like a pretty big job to put on someone who lacked superpowers.

But I agree that in all other areas Sam was a good choice.

 

[JAWS]

Really? Can you quote a single example of someone here saying that Sam didn't deserve the shield because I don't know that I've seen that said once.

Oh so nobody has said that Sam didnt deserve the shield??


So what is xipotec's point then


I like Xi but if nobody said this then bad on his part.

 

[JAWS]

No lies detected here.

Except there might be one, if nobody said Sam did not deserve the shield.. Also one might have to feel in their heart that Sam did not deserve the shield because of the color of his skin in order to be called racist. Unless they say that part out loud then one is again just guessing and assuming. Which is how problems begin in the first place.

 

[The Buffinator]

Except there might be one, if nobody said Sam did not deserve the shield.. Also one might have to feel in their heart that Sam did not deserve the shield because of the color of his skin in order to be called racist. Unless they say that part out loud then one is again just guessing and assuming. Which is how problems begin in the first place.

Well, there was the whole "wokeness" whinging going on and someone specifically moaned about "Sam replacing Cap, Riri Williams as Iron Man, Jane Foster as Thor, She-Hulk as Hulk, Kate Bishop as Hawkeye", etc.. Not explicitly racist (definitely sexist though lol), but when people are repeatedly complaining about their white male heroes being phased out of the MCU it's a pretty short walk to get there. It's really quite silly. RDJ was aging out of the role anyway (plus he had the perfect arc and went out as THE hero), Evans wanted to move on, Renner's not getting any younger - it's time for some new blood. And all of the aforementioned characters exist in the comics, so it's not as if Disney/Marvel is pulling them out of its collective ass. Will the MCU maintain the same heights it achieved with RDJ & Evans? Probably not, but after IW/Endgame there was nowhere to go but down. That doesn't mean it can't still be entertaining.

 

[e30ernest]

I thought about exactly what you wrote when I posted that.. but then I remembered no black or white American has been put into that position of being Captain America. So then we are just dealing with opinions and feelings.

And then I thought.. If there was a cool ass superhero that helped save the world and he was to become the next Captain America would most of America give a **** what the color of his skin was?? There would be some for sure. Hell some of the eyes of hate would probably come from the black community thinking he was a sellout and call him the sort of things that black conservatives get called.

But It would be a minority. IDK it just came off as forced and agenda driven. It does not help that the rest of the speech was a just as goofy.. It felt more like a Disney written speech then what Sam would actually say.

So the only near enough real-world scenario where a black man was put into power to represent the USA that comes into mind is Barrack Obama. Now I do remember some racist comments about him (some I've heard personally from people around me) becoming president. So I guess there is some merit to what Sam "felt" about people hating him for picking up the Captain America mantle just because of his color.

I agree it was poorly delivered in this show, but I do think that type of racism still exists. And while I do agree it would be the minority, it's still widespread enough for me to hear about it all the way across the Pacific from both people in my country and from people I know in the USA.

 

[SwedishHeat]

I wish the show would've set up the moral ambiguity of 'after the Blip' more appropriately.

Had the show started out showing Karli and her crew handing out food and supplies to the 'down on their luck' folk, then showing GRC soldiers crashing that party to start snatching select members of the local population and dragging them into troop transports, it would clearly establish the GRC are the bad guys. Then cut to a new scene with a GRC leader giving Falcon and Bucky orders about where the 'rebels' are located and to go eliminate them. Then that makes you question who's right and who's wrong, because obviously those two are good, but why are they working with the bad guys? They needed to play up the 'Robin Hood' aspect of Karli's character more.

It took me until Sam's speech at the end to try and figure out where or what the conflict actually was. They didn't sell the audience on the issues, so Sam's speech at the end, while what he said was correct, in service of the show, it seemed like he had more information than those of us watching the show.

As far as I understand it, after half the world disappeared, all the countries came together to consolidate resources, and people got used to that status quo after 5 years. As Steve noted in Endgame, the world was 'healing'. Then all of a sudden, the Blipped come back, and those people want their homes back, but what happens if their home is gone? What happens if someone else bought the now unoccupied home? Who is the GRC? Who do they represent? Who elected them? So, the GRC just decided to move people around by force, apparently. If you bought a home, and then the original owner blipped back, I guess the GRC will take you from your legally-purchased home, by force, and allow the original owner to live in that home?

There's a lot of questions that aren't really worth spending time on in the show, but were necessary to understand the conflict. I can see what the show tried to do, and it is probably still worth exploring, but it seems like most folks don't have the patience for that sort of political plotlines, otherwise you start getting into PT-level' disputes over taxation on trade routes' territory.

And as far as Karli being a terrorist .... Luke Skywalker killed a million people when he blew up the Death Star, but we call him a hero. But as I mentioned, the show did a poor job of explaining the conflict, so our point of view was flawed.

 

[Drawbak]

Far left. Far right. They both suck . They only want to make money for themselves.

That is ... the exact opposite of what the far left would want. And the US has no far left politicians in office anyway.
No elected American politician is advocating nationalizing Amazon and Walmart (and distributing their profits among all citizens), just that they pay some taxes. And that is a pretty moderate policy proposal.

But we digress lol

One thing is, by trying to grapple with post-blip mass unsnappenings, FFH and this show retroactively cast The Avengers Endgame in an extremely bad light. I mean, wow. They really screwed up without a thought to the possible consequences of doubling the world's population in an instant.
I was skeptical when it happen offscreen, but I let it go. No ignoring it now!

 

[JAWS]

Well, there was the whole "wokeness" whinging going on and someone specifically moaned about "Sam replacing Cap, Riri Williams as Iron Man, Jane Foster as Thor, She-Hulk as Hulk, Kate Bishop as Hawkeye", etc.. Not explicitly racist (definitely sexist though lol), but when people are repeatedly complaining about their white male heroes being phased out of the MCU it's a pretty short walk to get there. It's really quite silly. RDJ was aging out of the role anyway (plus he had the perfect arc and went out as THE hero), Evans wanted to move on, Renner's not getting any younger - it's time for some new blood. And all of the aforementioned characters exist in the comics, so it's not as if Disney/Marvel is pulling them out of its collective ass. Will the MCU maintain the same heights it achieved with RDJ & Evans? Probably not, but after IW/Endgame there was nowhere to go but down. That doesn't mean it can't still be entertaining.

I just want Hulk to get his due

I don't really care about the rest of the MCU.. Like you pointed out RDJ was aging out and moving on from the other characters is fine.

Now I don't know how people feel about the changes in the comics. I didn't read those. I think new heros are better ideas then taking over for old ones. I think its just hard for people to picture anyone else stepping into a fav characters shoes.

Was not that long ago that people were saying it was time for a female Bond or even a gay bond.. Well that's just not James Bond anymore. Be creaive and make a new character. Atomic Blonde is a fav of mine but all the people clamoring for a female Bond did not go see that one.

So the only near enough real-world scenario where a black man was put into power to represent the USA that comes into mind is Barrack Obama. Now I do remember some racist comments about him (some I've heard personally from people around me) becoming president. So I guess there is some merit to what Sam "felt" about people hating him for picking up the Captain America mantle just because of his color.

I agree it was poorly delivered in this show, but I do think that type of racism still exists. And while I do agree it would be the minority, it's still widespread enough for me to hear about it all the way across the Pacific from both people in my country and from people I know in the USA.

I thought about Obama.. Two term black president. Great moment in out country even though politically I didn't see eye to eye with him. I live in a fairly red neck area but never heard racist comments about him. But yes of course its out there. The show just was ham fisted in its delivery.

 

[e30ernest]

One thing is, by trying to grapple with post-blip mass unsnappenings, FFH and this show retroactively cast The Avengers Endgame in an extremely bad light. I mean, wow. They really screwed up without a thought to the possible consequences of doubling the world's population in an instant.
I was skeptical when it happen offscreen, but I let it go. No ignoring it now!

TFAWS had the side effect of proving that Tony was right in CA:CW. The Avengers working out of any oversight in EG has lead to some pretty big consequences so far in both MCU TV shows.

I thought about Obama.. Two term black president. Great moment in out country even though politically I didn't see eye to eye with him. I live in a fairly red neck area but never heard racist comments about him. But yes of course its out there. The show just was ham fisted in its delivery.

Oh I agree, the show really did badly in its delivery. The message I felt was ok, but the delivery only made it feel cheesy and preachy. A solid case of telling and not showing I think.

 

[jye4ever]

I just want Hulk to get his due

I don't really care about the rest of the MCU.. Like you pointed out RDJ was aging out and moving on from the other characters is fine.

Now I don't know how people feel about the changes in the comics. I didn't read those. I think new heros are better ideas then taking over for old ones. I think its just hard for people to picture anyone else stepping into a fav characters shoes.

Was not that long ago that people were saying it was time for a female Bond or even a gay bond.. Well that's just not James Bond anymore. Be creaive and make a new character. Atomic Blonde is a fav of mine but all the people clamoring for a female Bond did not go see that one.



I thought about Obama.. Two term black president. Great moment in out country even though politically I didn't see eye to eye with him. I live in a fairly red neck area but never heard racist comments about him. But yes of course its out there. The show just was ham fisted in its delivery.

 

[ZE_501]

[...]And as far as Karli being a terrorist .... Luke Skywalker killed a million people when he blew up the Death Star, but we call him a hero. But as I mentioned, the show did a poor job of explaining the conflict, so our point of view was flawed.

They're not really equivalent, although they're both fantasies. And all we were ever shown in Star Wars was a totally militarized genocidal planet killing battle station. Not a janitor in sight. Of course a close look at Star Wars tells us life is cheap in a galaxy far far away.

In the MCU version of our own world, Karli pours gasoline on vehicles containing civilians, blows up buildings containing bound prisoners, etc. -- she decides who "matters".

Either we agree on this or we don't, I've recovered from my days of writing wall-of-text analyses of Star Wars so I'll refrain from going into more detail.

 

[ZE_501]

Only thing I thought was initially strange about Sam getting the shield was No Superpowers. Seemed like a pretty big job to put on someone who lacked superpowers.

But I agree that in all other areas Sam was a good choice.

There is that. I really have to suspend my disbelief watching him wield the shield without superpowers, even though vibranium conveniently defies physics as the plot demands, etc. ... it also puts an expiry date on his career. If he avoids getting killed, there's no way his body will be able to deal with the level of punishment he's likely to take over the next 2 - 6 years. Although you can at least hand-wave some of that away with Wakandan tech, tech via alien contact, Stark tech etc.

 

[Spartan Rex]

“Am I a joke to u Sam?”

 

[xipotec]

Oh so nobody has said that Sam didnt deserve the shield??


So what is xipotec's point then


I like Xi but if nobody said this then bad on his part.

Jeez guys. It?s not that hard, go back to the Endgame thread, there was tons of hand wringing about it. Most of the guys here were not the culprits.

Or look at YouTube or just google it. Tones of people said it.

LOTS of people said it should have been Bucky.........


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