MARVEL' S Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[BeefEaster]

It's like they made the first episode of this and everyone involved started high fiving each other because it turned out pretty good and then someone walked in and was like, "uh, guys, we have to make five more of these..." and everyone looked at each other with an "oh, ****" look on their faces.

 

[jye4ever]

View attachment 511767
?Am I joke to u Sam??

Captain Iron Patriot lol

 

[ZE_501]

[...]
?Am I joke to u Sam??

Oh. Oh dear.

 

[The Buffinator]

View attachment 511767
?Am I joke to u Sam??

Your password is WARMACHINEROX, so yes, most definitely a joke.

 

[Sassafras]

It seems more are upset about Sam getting the shield because it was not what happened in the comics.

Bucky got the shield didnt he?

I dont know.. I for one had no issues with it being Sam. But I had no expectations with who would get the shield next.

Only thing I thought was initially strange about Sam getting the shield was No Superpowers. Seemed like a pretty big job to put on someone who lacked superpowers.

But I agree that in all other areas Sam was a good choice.

Well, for me it's always been a toss-up. Both held the shield in different comic runs. For selfish reasons I prefer Bucky as the antihero assassin in the shadows, so I didn't care.

I'm upset about what I view as disrespect/blowing off Bucky's pretty horrific history; like the writers hauling off and having Sam say his choices with the shield had nothing to do with Bucky. Duh. It's one of the last things Bucky saw - even had picked it up to defend Steve - before he pretty much died, in a sense. So u have a guy who was just bits of DNA at the time saying stuff like that.

A former counselor for veterans. Then there's the whole thing about "Steve Rogers insensitivity" - or Bucky's. Considering the man's brains were so fried he was trying to beat his best friend to death; this is the person you set up as an apologist? It's like the writers had absolutely no shame.

Then there was the whole Isaiah thing, which I might have felt something about except the whole comic is basically retooling someone elses original work, only making it "more". Why the original comic authors, or these writers, don't start at the bottom like Stan Lee and invent something absolutely new, I don't get. But then again, there seemed to be an awful lot of borrowing going on in this show, even the fights. Like Walker using the shield to save Lamar was like TWS Steve using the car door.

Sam using a grapelling hook against Walker was like Steve using one against Tony. Anyway when I get whiffs of borrowing I start to tune out - wow, did I have issues with the last SW trilogy

Overall I'm upset at the morphing of my favorite MCU character and a favorite character I pretty much don't recognize; either in skill set or personality; kinda feel like we "knew" Sam and Bucky long before this showrunner was on board. And Spellman & co. pretty much didn't give a %$#; not even coming up with interesting fight choreography a lot of the time. IMO their characters weren't developed; they were warped.

Finally there was the heavy handed barrage about racism and just about everything, really. I've never liked getting banged in the head with stuff - always liked the Russos more tight editing where the characters don't overexplain or ramble on. The level of cheese by the end was mind-numbing. Writing on the level of those disaster porn films where everyone hates each other, but then have to work together (like Volcano) including the guys from the hood, and then group hug. Holy %$#@ this was bad, in so many ways

 

[Sassafras]

It's like they made the first episode of this and everyone involved started high fiving each other because it turned out pretty good and then someone walked in and was like, "uh, guys, we have to make five more of these..." and everyone looked at each other with an "oh, ****" look on their faces.

Yeah, I'd have think about when I started to get uneasy. Probably when Bucky the trained assassin wanted to charge off like a happy puppy....it's sad thinking I was SURE the finale would be a redemption.

 

[e30ernest]

Your password is WARMACHINEROX, so yes, most definitely a joke.

Hahaha I was about to say the same thing.

I also agree with the Pitch Meeting's take on Bucky. The end title should have read "Captain America and Bucky" to show Bucky's character progress. But I guess that wasn't as catchy as "Captain America and The Winter Soldier".

 

[SwedishHeat]

In the MCU version of our own world, Karli pours gasoline on vehicles containing civilians, blows up buildings containing bound prisoners, etc. -- she decides who "matters".

Which scene are you talking about? I know there's a scene where they pour gas on one of the armored trucks, which was carrying GRC members, I don't think they were 'civilians'.

As I said though, the show did a poor job of explaining the conflict. as I understand it, had the GRC vote happened, it would have basically erased Karli and hundreds of thousands of other people's homes, so she was trying to kill them to prevent that from happening. She already had the support of countless others, there's a line earlier in the show when someone tells her that the people are calling her 'Robin Hood' . So she's not some deluded, evil, psycho villain.

What would happen if the UN decided to move all of Mexico into the United States? How would that play out? That's basically what the GRC was trying to do.

 

[TheDucky]

Which scene are you talking about? I know there's a scene where they pour gas on one of the armored trucks, which was carrying GRC members, I don't think they were 'civilians'.

As I said though, the show did a poor job of explaining the conflict. as I understand it, had the GRC vote happened, it would have basically erased Karli and hundreds of thousands of other people's homes, so she was trying to kill them to prevent that from happening. She already had the support of countless others, there's a line earlier in the show when someone tells her that the people are calling her 'Robin Hood' . So she's not some deluded, evil, psycho villain.

What would happen if the UN decided to move all of Mexico into the United States? How would that play out? That's basically what the GRC was trying to do.

holy **** lmao wow.

The TERRORIST tried to kill everyone she fought, tried to burn people alive, actually murdered people, and wanted to murder hostages. Even her own followers didn’t want to go that far. You actually sitting here and telling me she isn’t evil You one of those who think rioting and looting are peaceful protests too huh?

The GRC was trying to give the people who were snapped out of existence their homes back. You know the same ones Karli and her nutjobs stole. If that happened to you, you just giving up your house and being homeless? They can GTFO out of my house and go back to your original home. Don’t give a **** who you are, where you from, your race, your religion, doesn’t matter, my house is my house.

Karli and her one world one people BS just wanted to keep their free hand outs. After they failed in life for five years and got pushed out they whine and cried.

 

[TheDucky]

Anyways finished the finale. -3/10. Wokeness and delusional rating score 10/10 though. Loved this show and it took a nose dive. Ruined multiple characters in a way. Hopefully somebody makes a cut with all the BS preachy crap and useless scenes cut out.

Probably could made this into a solid 120-150 minute film easy that primarily focuses on the legacy of Captain America and Walker taking the shield with Sam and Bucky trying to get it back. I’m just gonna pretend Karli died right after Lamar did and the finale was the EPIC Walker vs Bucky/Sam fight.

 

[ZE_501]

Which scene are you talking about? I know there's a scene where they pour gas on one of the armored trucks, which was carrying GRC members, I don't think they were 'civilians'.

Yes -- they're GRC members, but they're unarmed, non-military, non-combatant hostages that were kidnapped and confined. I know the conflagration was meant to divert Bucky, but pouring gasoline on a truck full of those people and igniting it classifies as terrorism at worst, maybe a war crime at best. Given that Karli and co. are insurgents who decide who is and is not fit for execution based not on engagement but their LinkedIn profile, I don't think it's much of a war even though they consider themselves freedom fighters. Those civilians are not 'collateral damage' they were targeted for execution.

As I said though, the show did a poor job of explaining the conflict. as I understand it, had the GRC vote happened, it would have basically erased Karli and hundreds of thousands of other people's homes, so she was trying to kill them to prevent that from happening. She already had the support of countless others, there's a line earlier in the show when someone tells her that the people are calling her 'Robin Hood' . So she's not some deluded, evil, psycho villain.

What would happen if the UN decided to move all of Mexico into the United States? How would that play out? That's basically what the GRC was trying to do.

Oh, I understood why she was radicalized. The show was not subtle ... so where do you draw the line?

• When is it okay to blow up a building with prisoners confined in it?
• When is it okay to set a vehicle on fire with civilian hostages inside it?
• When is it okay to publicly execute senators to prove a point?

The GRC wasn't conducting genocide. They were conducting forced mass migration in what was a genuinely complicated situation, given that about 3.45 billion people just popped back into existence after vanishing for 5 years.

If they were being heavy-handed and unjust (which it sounds like they were), Karli and co. could have chosen all kinds advocacy, activism, resorted to civil disobedience and property damage; if they had so many supporters all over the world it would have been relatively easy to render themselves ungovernable.

Not as easy as juicing up with Super Soldier serum and murdering people.

Now if the GRC was going straight Handmaid's Tale and disappearing people, torturing them and murdering them, I would see your point, but at that point somebody tell me what The Avengers are doing while this goes on ... it is the MCU after all.

 

[ironwez20]

Same thing they did when tony stark?s house got blown up.

Looked at it on tv. Shrugged it off and turned off the tv and went back to sleep.

 

[ZE_501]

Same thing they did when tony stark?s house got blown up.

Looked at it on tv. Shrugged it off and turned off the tv and went back to sleep.

....convenient.

 

[jal76]

I thought about Obama.. Two term black president. Great moment in out country even though politically I didn't see eye to eye with him. I live in a fairly red neck area but never heard racist comments about him. But yes of course its out there. The show just was ham fisted in its delivery.

I didn?t think to bring him up, but this makes my point perfectly.
There is a ton of documentary information that even after Obama was elected President, black Americans all over the country collectively panicked when he took the ceremonial walk down Pennsylvania Ave. to the White House after being inaugurated.
Every President does it, but even after winning in a landslide, black Americans were convinced that he needed to stay inside the bulletproof SUV on a day of celebration, instead of walking out in the open like every other President.
They were convinced that the first black President would not be able to make it to the White House on foot without being harmed.
It?s also a fact that he received earlier and enhanced security prior to being inaugurated than any other President-Elect. It wasn?t that people didn?t like his policies because he hadn?t been sworn in yet.
Why do you think it was?
He was fine, they were wrong, but they still felt that way and that says something. It speaks to the way black Americans feel in this country. Pretty sure Sam Wilson (if he was real) would have been watching at home and wanting Obama to stay inside the SUV too.

 

[The Buffinator]

As I stated previously, conceptually I really liked what they tried to do with the Flag Smashers, but the execution was lacking when it came to establishing them as the sympathetic "Robin Hoods" that they tried to sell us. IMO the series should have started with them being introduced as the victims of heavy-handed GRC relocation tactics. Not only that, but maybe also show how/why they would have been on the Power Broker's radar and in a position to receive the super soldier serum in the first place (let alone steal the last 20 doses). Did they answer an ad requesting volunteers for medical testing? How/why they ended up in Madripoor is a mystery.

Regarding the terrorist label, by the textbook definition all of them were terrorists but only Karli was a murderer. She blew up the GRC warehouse and killed people without consulting the others, and the rest thought they were only going to hold the GRC council members hostage & were surprised/hesitant when Karli announced they'd kill them if needed. Plus it was Karli in the end who actually tried to do the deed; it's open to debate if any of the others would have followed through in her place. As for setting the trucks on fire, I don't think any of them expected Bucky to NOT successfully save the GRC council members so I viewed it as a tactical diversion, but then Karli didn't mean to kill Lemar either so it still would have to be viewed as attempted murder.

 

[JAWS]

I didn?t think to bring him up, but this makes my point perfectly.
There is a ton of documentary information that even after Obama was elected President, black Americans all over the country collectively panicked when he took the ceremonial walk down Pennsylvania Ave. to the White House after being inaugurated.
Every President does it, but even after winning in a landslide, black Americans were convinced that he needed to stay inside the bulletproof SUV on a day of celebration, instead of walking out in the open like every other President.
They were convinced that the first black President would not be able to make it to the White House on foot without being harmed.
It?s also a fact that he received earlier and enhanced security prior to being inaugurated than any other President-Elect. It wasn?t that people didn?t like his policies because he hadn?t been sworn in yet.
Why do you think it was?
He was fine, they were wrong, but they still felt that way and that says something. It speaks to the way black Americans feel in this country. Pretty sure Sam Wilson (if he was real) would have been watching at home and wanting Obama to stay inside the SUV too.

But the show is doing more than just expressing a feeling.. It was teaching a lesson. That is what we are supposed to get out of it. The lesson should be how far we have come as a country. We have our sins for sure but we are not nearly as divided as the news and politicians want us to be. Obama was our President for 8 years.. Hell I was even worried about an assassination attempt.. But not a one.. Of the county was as still as racist as some want to make it out to be then I dont think we get through those 8 years without some idiot trying to take an attempt at him.

We are getting a tad to political here..

Again it could have been handled much better.

The film Wind River does a fantastic job of showing us the plight of the Native American Indian, while not once getting preachy about it. That's the way to do it.. Had a much bigger impact on me then this shows speeches did.

View attachment 511767
?Am I a joke to u Sam??

Of course then there is this...

 

[loki2371]

So since this ended past Friday I decided to binge watch all the episodes on Saturday night. Have avoided this thread since it started so way too far behind to go back and read through everyone's comments.

Wasn't very impressed. Even at only 6 episodes still a little bloated with a lot of crap that was very unnecessary. It was OK, but nothing great. The CGI and action scenes were all pretty damn good looking, except for maybe 1 or 2. Some were pretty badly written and stupid though. The beginning chasing the guys on gliders was pretty bad. Amazing how they could out maneuver Falcon... And then the last episode helicopter chase was pretty bad. Amazing that some rando could fly a helicopter that good giving Falcon a problem, let alone make it do things that are quite unbelievable.. Falcon seemed to struggle more fighting these dweebs than Thanos' alien army in IW & EG.. And all of a sudden Falcon caries no guns?? Seriously, I mean WTF?? I guess otherwise everything would've ended too quickly. Whatever.. More BS.

Walker Cap was pretty good but a little too goofy. And the fight scenes were all crap. I mean, they never explained who the members of the Flagsmashers were as far as their background. I don't think they would've been much of a match for 4 highly trained and skilled military people (Bucky, Falcon, Walker Cap & Battlestar), especially for Bucky. Bucky was nerfed way too much. Having the super soldier serum may make you strong, fast & tough, but it doesn't automatically turn you into a deadly fighter.

And that Karli character as the Flagsmasher's leader was laughable. I couldn't figure out if you were supposed to like her, then later dislike her? Feel bad for her?? Either way she was terrible and I was glad when she was killed. One of the best parts of the show!! The actor wasn't very good. Not sure if she was the same person from Solo who played Enfys Nest, but just as bad and with many eye rolling moments. One bad ass little girl. At least find an actor that looks menacing and tough, not a cutesy freckled whatever she was supposed to be.

Also not too sure why they needed to turn Sharon Carter into the Power Broker. Why? Shock value? Surprise twist? Very out of character and would've been nice to just have her back as an ally. Plenty of other Marvel characters to choose from for that role.

There was also a bit much trying to make it grounded and politically relevant to today. This should be escapism. I wish they would just leave the SJW & current political climate out of these shows. Won't stand the test of time because of it, and ruins wanting to revisit/rewatch them.

I think I may have preferred Wanda/Vision overall to this. I don't have very high hopes for any of these D+ shows...

 

[SwedishHeat]

The GRC wasn't conducting genocide. They were conducting forced mass migration in what was a genuinely complicated situation, given that about 3.45 billion people just popped back into existence after vanishing for 5 years.

If they were being heavy-handed and unjust (which it sounds like they were), Karli and co. could have chosen all kinds advocacy, activism, resorted to civil disobedience and property damage; if they had so many supporters all over the world it would have been relatively easy to render themselves ungovernable.

My head canon says all that happened prior to the start of the show.

The ending was trying to sell Karli as a martyr, but the writing didn't support that, so my brain fills in the gaps.

 

[ZE_501]

[...]Having the super soldier serum may make you strong, fast & tough, but it doesn't automatically turn you into a deadly fighter.

[...]

I don't know how it works in the MCU, and was never a comics Cap fan, but what I've *heard* is that the serum affects the brain making it into a very fast tactical computer. I don't know if that's true or not.

But even if it were, experience and training would have given Bucky and juiced-up Walker the edge, and even underpowered Falcon and Battlestar given most of the Flag Smashers appeared to be a buncha mooks.

 

[ZE_501]

My head canon says all that happened prior to the start of the show.

The ending was trying to sell Karli as a martyr, but the writing didn't support that, so my brain fills in the gaps.

Whatever it takes for you to enjoy it. I call that weak writing and poor execution. And my other questions still stand:

• When is it okay to blow up a building with prisoners confined in it?
• When is it okay to set a vehicle on fire with civilian hostages inside it?
• When is it okay to publicly execute senators to prove a point?