McCain Shocker!

[barbelith]

We are fighting a dictionary definition of an army in Iraq.

We're not fighting a single entity. Many of the factions would as soon attack each other as attack us.

1) Do they fit the dictionary definition of an army? And there can be only one answer.

And that answer is no. Or rather, it's about as much an army as McDonald's is.

and 2) Is this actually a war?

Nope.

We all need to leave the partisan spin behind.

Change begins at home. I can appreciate a difference of opinion but don't bother moralizing about spin before offering your own.

 

[barbelith]

Great move on the part of McCain. Did anyone see all the women weeping when Hillary spoke at the convention? They feel cheated with the results of the primaries.

Yeah. If there's one person most women are sure to vote for, it's someone who believes they should be forced to carry the product of a rape to term.

 

[monkeydad16]

Yeah. If there's one person most women are sure to vote for, it's someone who believes they should be forced to carry the product of a rape to term.

So it's ok to punish the innocent when someone else commits an evil deed?

 

[barbelith]

So it's ok to punish the innocent when someone else commits an evil deed?

You have to understand that while you may feel life begins at conception, others disagree. Certainly I can't find any similarity between a human being and what sits in a woman's womb two days after a rape that has led to conception.

I wonder, though. How many unwanted children who were the product of rape have you adopted?

 

[Khev]

Yeah. If there's one person most women are sure to vote for, it's someone who believes they should be forced to carry the product of a rape to term.

Not all women call people "products". I think Romney would have been the way to go. Hopefully choosing Palin doesn't backfire.

 

[barbelith]

Not all women call people "products".

https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/product

You might want to check out numbers 2, 4 or 5.

 

[Darth Cruel]

We're not fighting a single entity. Many of the factions would as soon attack each other as attack us.



And that answer is no. Or rather, it's about as much an army as McDonald's is.



Nope.



Change begins at home. I can appreciate a difference of opinion but don't bother moralizing about spin before offering your own.

You are mistaken. Although those factions may want to fight each other. They are cooperating to attack our military at this time. And just saying that they are not an army does not make that the truth. They absolutely, inarguably fit the simple definition of an army. And I am a spin-free operator. Anything I say can easily be shown to be factual from any angle. And if I am mistaken...prove it to me and I will concede.

 

[barbelith]

You are mistaken. Although those factions may want to fight each other. They are cooperating to attack our military at this time.

But they're not. Some people and/or factions may be collaborating with other people and/or factions but the idea we're fighting a unified army is blatantly false. In fact that's one of our major tactical challenges!

And just saying that they are not an army does not make that the truth.

Neither does claiming they are.

They absolutely, inarguably fit the simple definition of an army.

So does the Burger King down the street. And about as accurately.

And I am a spin-free operator.

I respect your participation in this thread, but your posts are packed with spin. I would hope it's your own, because it's a little disheartening if you're just regurgitating conservative talking points.

 

[Khev]

Yes you can accurately call all people products according to the dictionary. I think the inference when calling an unborn child conceived by a rape no more than a product or byproduct is that they aren't human or deserving of life.

Not all people, or women, believe that. I'm not saying you do. And I do know that a lot of women will indeed be put off by someone who's strongly pro-life. But there's also many women who share Palin's beliefs, and for them at least the fact that she's also a woman could appeal to them. We'll see.

 

[monkeydad16]

The answer would be zero. However, I do support the Liberty Godparent Home, which supports young mothers who chose life over death for their babies.

The rape issue comes up frequently with the pro abortion crowd. Rape is a horribly offensive crime and should be punishable by death in my opinion. But, 93% of abortions occur for social reasons only (inconvenient or unwanted pregnancy).

At what point do we start holding people accountable for their actions?

 

[barbelith]

At what point do we start holding people accountable for their actions?

At the point they've done something wrong. If you want to start making major decisions for other people, you're going to have to prove that what sits in a woman's womb at one month is a human being instead of something that could eventually become a human being. Good luck!

To be frank I have zero patience for people who want to impose their morality on others when it comes to this issue yet haven't put their money where their mouths are by adopting unwanted children.

However. This is a very controversial issue that is likelier to get more heated than the thread subject, so I am not going to post on the subject again. I invite you to post your own final opinion as I enjoy hearing from others' with different perspectives, but let's agree to move on to other topics?

 

[Khev]

Rape is a horribly offensive crime and should be punishable by death in my opinion.

Or at the very least castration.

 

[monkeydad16]

But the problem is, we are not talking about just one month. We are talking about 2nd and 3rd trimesters, when heartbeats and brainwaves are detected.

You tell me, when does life begin? When does someone deserve protection?

 

[Darth Cruel]

But they're not. Some people and/or factions may be collaborating with other people and/or factions but the idea we're fighting a unified army is blatantly false. In fact that's one of our major tactical challenges!



Neither does claiming they are.



So does the Burger King down the street. And about as accurately.



I respect your participation in this thread, but your posts are packed with spin. I would hope it's your own, because it's a little disheartening if you're just regurgitating conservative talking points.

Like I said. Show me, don't tell me. I have my own mind. I base my opinions on my own observations. And I respect and pay attention to others' opinions and experience because I feel that it multiple minds coming together on a subject is the best way to learn it completely. I like all people, though I dislike the ideas of conservatism, liberalism, Republicanism AND Democratics as those ideas apply to our politicians as I see them all as extreme in their motivations and I (edit - remove "do not") see them as being self-serving entities that are are not maximizing their efforts for the good of all U.S. citizens.

But I am not arrogant. If I am wrong, I want to learn why. So don't just tell me, show me the evidence.

 

[barbelith]

You tell me, when does life begin?

I don't know, which is why I don't presume to tell other people what they can and can't do with their bodies.

 

[monkeydad16]

So, when in doubt - kill?

 

[Mike1065]

I don't know, which is why I don't presume to tell other people what they can and can't do with their bodies.

Don't hide behind that "right to choose" garbage. Abortion is not a black and white, yes and no. I believe if women want to get abortions early in their preganancy they can, but when women get babies aborted who could survive out of the womb, or are very close to that, then where do you draw the line? Why is it not murder when a doctor kills a living child, one who could survive if extracted?

 

[barbelith]

So don't just tell me, show me the evidence.

Why not listen to our own intelligence community, which agrees we're fighting fighting a bouillabaisse of forces that are not working in concert as a unified force? We've fought foreign jihadists. We've fought Baathists. We've fought Sunni militias. We've fought ^^^^^e militias. We've probably fought some of the handful of guys the CIA believes constitutes al-Qaeda. Some people claim we're fighting Iranian operatives. In fact we're pretty much fighting (or have fought) every faction in Iraq short of the Kurds.

You seem to think they've banded together to fight us, but our own military and intelligence disputes this. It's called "sectarian violence" for a reason, after all, and it's our greatest operational challenge. We don't know where the next attack is coming from because we're under attack on multiple fronts by multiple - and competing - factions. There's not even unity among all of the ^^^^^e militias nor unity among all of the Sunni militias.

I'm trying to understand your perspective and the nearest I can get is that it can appear we're fighting an army, because someone's always shooting at us. But that interpretation is grossly misleading, because it implies a centralized authority or organization, when the truth is many of these groups refuse to communicate with each other short of a bullet through the head. Meanwhile we've successfully negotiated with a number of sectarian groups, demonstrating once again they're not all working in concert.

 

[Naptownsithlord]

I have mixed views on Palin, at first i didn't think it was a good choice but she is a mother of five and that will appeal to the demographic of voters McCain is trying to get.
I was a bit surprised by this selection and didn't see this one coming so i'm still on the fence.
I'll wait and reserve judgment till i know a little more about her.
Like i said on the Obama thread if all fails i'll be voting for Megatron..
And by the way you guys need to give the Pro Life Pro Choice a break nobody ever sees eye to eye on this issue.

 

[barbelith]

I was going to duck out on this one, but the loaded language here is a bit much.

So, when in doubt - kill?

I do not believe human life begins at the moment of conception. Therefore I reject your spin that abortion equals killing human beings.

Don't hide behind that "right to choose" garbage.

This is still America. The right to choose is never hiding. It's allowing other citizens to make their own choices and deal with the implications and repercussions themselves.

I believe if women want to get abortions early in their preganancy they can, but when women get babies aborted who could survive out of the womb, or are very close to that, then where do you draw the line?

My personal belief is that abortion should be unrestricted in the first trimester and banned in the third trimester except in cases where the woman's life is in danger. I don't have an answer for the second trimester and believe we should err on the side of allowing people to make their own considered decisions. On the other hand I'm an American and so don't believe in bans. Let's just say I'm glad I don't have to decide for anyone but my own family.

I don't think this is an issue that's going to be resolved on an Internet discussion forum and I don't particularly see the value in furthering discussion with those unable to see beyond incredibly biased and heated language like "baby killers" to accept that others may have different - and valid - opinions, so it's probably best if we return to discussing Sarah Palin to keep the thread from being shut down.