Metal Gear Solid Collectibles

[GasparZizou]

Aaaagh, a fight, it's been a while.

Feelsgoodman.jpg

 

[Solidus]

Aaaagh, a fight, it's been a while.

Feelsgoodman.jpg

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GasparZizou again."

 

[GasparZizou]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GasparZizou again."

 

[ronri]

I'm gonna just say this, at this point, it's hard to make any sense of The Boss's will and Big Boss's interpretation of it. There are numerous contradictions, and plot holes with it. The Boss's will has also been bastardized horribly by Peace Walker, and Big Boss's interpretation too. Nothing against you Ronri, but I do agree with Solidus. However, you still bring up some good points.

That's absolutely fair enough and I don't disagree that PW definitely added so many complications to what was initially a fairly solid idea of The Boss's will.

Just to cap off my argument Solidus, I will concede that Outer Heaven's point definitely carried a part of The Boss's desire for unifying the world; in which BB projected a unified world free from the short-sightedness of nations. The part that he rejects about her is the very point of her self-sacrifice and that's something I felt that PW elaborated upon with a non-contradictory background.

Still I understand if you find that PW's framing of that as being questionably shoddy and I won't argue against that.

 

[potato]

No they don't. It's like saying we could use a Terminator Arnold headsculpt to pass off as a Conan. Snake never looked the same in any game, you just posted photographic evidence of that.

When i say reuse, i don't mean 100% reuse, even HT Jill underwent a hairdye before rereleasing her, i did mention about eye patch, you can change the hairstyle & color, add some mustache, but the base sculpt mold is already there from HT MGS3 Big Boss. Why spend extra cost just to redo another sculpt? You think those Tony & Joker v2,v3, v4 sculpts started from scratch?

 

[potato]

Sometimes fan wikis can be accurate, sometimes they are not. The God of War wiki claims Kratos is smiling on the cover of God of War: Saga, which I brought up on the wiki and no one has refuted...because they're wrong, and they know it Some others can be accurate though, like the MGS wiki at times. This is exactly why we believe you're a troll there is no resemblance between any of those head sculpts. You seriously think Jill and Sheva use the same head sculpt as Leon and Chris, the former of whom was made in 2008?
Except not really. Only if they disagree and are being an *******, like you. I've disagreed with them at times, and we're still friends.
Exactly yeah. Especially with Liquid, who has no facial hair unlike the others. The only two that could pass are Old Big Boss, and Solidus Snake - but it's not enough.

I'm gonna just say this, at this point, it's hard to make any sense of The Boss's will and Big Boss's interpretation of it. There are numerous contradictions, and plot holes with it. The Boss's will has also been bastardized horribly by Peace Walker, and Big Boss's interpretation too. Nothing against you Ronri, but I do agree with Solidus. However, you still bring up some good points.

I never said Wikia pages are 100% accurate, but the type of accuracy & details is not some official Guidebook or novel can match up with, compare to a big fan's "memory", it's way more detailed & accurate.

I took the HT RE figs as example on how the same mold can be reused on different release even if:
1.The original headsculpt was no where resembles the character (Jill)
2.The original headsculpt was intended for a different version of the same character (Chris & Jill)
This is an easy way to save cost for new Sculpt & Mold and that is what HT do, at most they add abit of this & that onto the old sculpt. And since MGS3 didn't do well in sales, do you think they would redo a new sculpt? Upgraded sculpts are only deemed worthy for characters that proven themselves they sell well.

 

[GasparZizou]

When i say reuse, i don't mean 100% reuse, even HT Jill underwent a hairdye before rereleasing her, i did mention about eye patch, you can change the hairstyle & color, add some mustache, but the base sculpt mold is already there from HT MGS3 Big Boss. Why spend extra cost just to redo another sculpt? You think those Tony & Joker v2,v3, v4 sculpts started from scratch?

If you don't care about accuracy at all, sure, you could use the same HT "MGS3" BB headsculpt.

Why would you even compare BB/Snake's case to a character from one movie and the likeness of a real actor that doesn't change in several movies?

Turns out HT MGS3 BB head isn't even good as MGS3 BB head, I honestly don't know why they went with that portrait.

Do you honestly believe they look the same in that picture? Honestly?

-MGS3 BB model is completely different from PW's BB artwork, they straight have different bone structure and different facial features, furthermore, TPP BB looks completely different from anything in the series' past.
-MGS2 Snake looks completely different to MGS4 Young Snake, which in turn looks completely different to Old Snake.

And none of the previously mentioned look like any of the others.

The only one that kinda looks like MGS4 BB is Solidus in that pic, but if you look a other pics the actual Solidus in-game model looks nothing like MGS4 BB.

But the point here is that the already existing HT MGS3 BB head looks nothing like young Snake from MGS1 nor MGS2, nor like Young Snake from MGS4, much less like Old Snake nor MGS4 BB.

I guess you could use a slightly modified MGS1 or 2 Snake head (with actual likeness) and pass it as Liquid's, but other than that, nope, not at all man.

Like I said, if you don't give a crap about accuracy then you could do that and hope the fans of the series have a bad case of pink eye or at least squint when they decide to drop $200+ per figure.

 

[Snake Plissken]

Double post. Triple post. Every thread he's in.

 

[potato]

If you don't care about accuracy at all, sure, you could use the same HT "MGS3" BB headsculpt.

Why would you even compare BB/Snake's case to a character from one movie and the likeness of a real actor that doesn't change in several movies?

Turns out HT MGS3 BB head isn't even good as MGS3 BB head, I honestly don't know why they went with that portrait.

Do you honestly believe they look the same in that picture? Honestly?

-MGS3 BB model is completely different from PW's BB artwork, they straight have different bone structure and different facial features, furthermore, TPP BB looks completely different from anything in the series' past.
-MGS2 Snake looks completely different to MGS4 Young Snake, which in turn looks completely different to Old Snake.

And none of the previously mentioned look like any of the others.

The only one that kinda looks like MGS4 BB is Solidus in that pic, but if you look a other pics the actual Solidus in-game model looks nothing like MGS4 BB.

But the point here is that the already existing HT MGS3 BB head looks nothing like young Snake from MGS1 nor MGS2, nor like Young Snake from MGS4, much less like Old Snake nor MGS4 BB.

I guess you could use a slightly modified MGS1 or 2 Snake head (with actual likeness) and pass it as Liquid's, but other than that, nope, not at all man.

Like I said, if you don't give a crap about accuracy then you could do that and hope the fans of the series have a bad case of pink eye or at least squint when they decide to drop $200+ per figure.

It's Hot Toys that doesn't care about accuracy, i'm just stating what they'll do if they plan on doing MGS1,2,4,PW Snakes, like i said at most they do some changes on existing MGS3 Snake sculpt, don't expect something from scratch. But if you look at the artbooks you'll notice they actually look very close to each other based on the base design.

 

[Henry Morgan*]

Not quite, he wanted to fulfill The Boss's will of freedom of control (soldiers specifically) by fighting the good fight for the soldiers that were being exploited by corrupt governments. His desire of removing governments falls squarely against Zero and nothing else. To illustrate:

The Boss's Will: Desire for peace/unity + Desire for soldiers' free will = Give BB himself freedom from being a loyal soldier + Unifying the world through purposeful reformation and not through conflict

Big Boss's interpretation: Desire for soldiers' free will - Desire for peace/unity -> "Give BB himself freedom from being a loyal soldier" -> Give soldiers freedom from loyalty to a nation (Outer Heaven)

Zero's interpretation: Desire for peace/unity - Desire for soldiers' free will -> "Unifying the world through purposeful reformation and not through conflict" -> Unify the world through micro-managing proxies (The A.I. Patriots)

Ok here's my two cents, I won't go point by point but I guess I agree with most things you said @Ronri in this post and in the others. Even after I played the games the Boss' will was still a bit enigmatic to me, her weird way of speaking didn't make it easier to understand.

But I think I do now, some people still think she is rooting for some kind of pacifistic neutral political philosophy, but thats not the case.

Now thinking about what Big Boss said:

"Boss… You were right. It's not about changing the world. It's about doing our best to leave the world… The way it is. It's about respecting the will of others… And believing in your own "

Now I realize that sounds like Volutarism which is the belief that all forms of human actions should be as voluntary as possible. Applying this to the Boss' will "leaving the world the way it is" means to leave individuals alone, and of course voluntarists are against the government for creating conflicts throught the means of force.

The Boss isn't an anarchist though, she wanted to restore the Philosophers after all, but the key priciples of voluntarism echo in her words.

Besides that, I think Philantrophy had a similar philosophy, remember in MGS2 Snake didn't plan on destroying MG Ray, he used force only when it was necessary. Each member of Philantrophy had their own reasons, independent people who were united voluntarily, as needed, to accomplish the same goal. And the new motto "To Let the world be" does echo on the things I mentioned earlier, the group clearly has an ideology but it doesn't use force to get closer to it they all have a voluntarist point of view.

In a ironic twist Solid Snake seems to have taken on the will of a woman that he never even know about who happened to have a deep influence in all of his enemies. This is why I like the ending of MGS4, with the Patriots and Big Boss gone the world The Boss envisioned is a reality and seems to be what Snake wanted as well, a world where ideology matters, ambitions are pure, and there are no traces of the old all-compassing hegemony


Ronri, I remember you also realised that Solid had the same ideology as the Boss, back then when you brought this up I didn't agree with you. But you were right all along

 

[WellCQCaboutthat]

We dont like rotten potatoes.

 

[Solidus]

Ok here's my two cents, I won't go point by point but I guess I agree with most things you said @Ronri in this post and in the others. Even after I played the games the Boss' will was still a bit enigmatic to me, her weird way of speaking didn't make it easier to understand.

But I think I do now, some people still think she is rooting for some kind of pacifistic neutral political philosophy, but thats not the case.

Now thinking about what Big Boss said:

"Boss… You were right. It's not about changing the world. It's about doing our best to leave the world… The way it is. It's about respecting the will of others… And believing in your own "

Now I realize that sounds like Volutarism which is the belief that all forms of human actions should be as voluntary as possible. Applying this to the Boss' will "leaving the world the way it is" means to leave individuals alone, and of course voluntarists are against the government for creating conflicts throught the means of force.

The Boss isn't an anarchist though, she wanted to restore the Philosophers after all, but the key priciples of voluntarism echo in her words.

Besides that, I think Philantrophy had a similar philosophy, remember in MGS2 Snake didn't plan on destroying MG Ray, he used force only when it was necessary. Each member of Philantrophy had their own reasons, independent people who were united voluntarily, as needed, to accomplish the same goal. And the new motto "To Let the world be" does echo on the things I mentioned earlier, the group clearly has an ideology but it doesn't use force to get closer to it they all have a voluntarist point of view.

In a ironic twist Solid Snake seems to have taken on the will of a woman that he never even know about who happened to have a deep influence in all of his enemies. This is why I like the ending of MGS4, with the Patriots and Big Boss gone the world The Boss envisioned is a reality and seems to be what Snake wanted as well, a world where ideology matters, ambitions are pure, and there are no traces of the old all-compassing hegemony


Ronri, I remember you also realised that Solid had the same ideology as the Boss, back then when you brought this up I didn't agree with you. But you were right all along

I was never under the impression that Solid Snake actually had a philosophical care about setting the world right. Prior to the Shadow Moses incident, he was living a normal, carefree life in Alaska, and was happy about just taking care of his dogs and drinking the days away. But, being who he was, as a clone (and "son") of Big Boss, he felt that it was his moral obligation to put an end to Big Boss' legacy, by killing Liquid and stopping the proliferation of Metal Gears around the globe. Unlike the Boss, Solid Snake acted on his own personal conviction, rather than notions of loyalty dedication to the mission. Like you said, he only fought when he had to, and he was practically coerced into the Shadow Moses mission. Heck, at the end of MGS 4, we can assume that he went back to living out his days peacefully.

As for the parallels from Philanthropy's motto to The Boss' philosophy, I think Kojima just likes reusing themes, especially whenever they sound cool or edgy, and it often adds unnecessary confusion into the mix. In a more recent example, do you remember in Ground Zeroes, when Skull Face echoed the almost the exact same words to Chico as Big Boss did in Peace Walker? "You're a real man now, soldier".

 

[ronri]

Spoiler-tagging because I know that people don't like my long posts (which is totally fine):

Spoiler

But I think I do now, some people still think she is rooting for some kind of pacifistic neutral political philosophy, but thats not the case.

That's what I didn't mind about PW. It showed that, for all of The Boss's peaceful side, she held a certain standard of conduct that allowed her to feel comfortable about taking necessary action. In the case of the seeming "Nazi spy" scenario, she outright muses on essentially betraying America since she felt that it might've benefited the world. That really speaks volumes of how her personal feelings are very much separate from her loyalty to her country (something I feel that a lot of people tend to forget due to her many lines about "loyalty").

You can't tell me that The Boss was happy to have her child taken from her because of "loyalty". You can't tell me that The Boss was happy that she kept being used throughout history because of "loyalty". You can't tell me that she was happy that Volgin botched her mission which forced her against her own disciple because of "loyalty". The Boss was very aware of how she was being used, but it's not something she wished on others especially towards Big Boss. The Boss viewed her sacrifice as appropriate and necessary as she had already lost everything. It's why she was such a martyr, she took the fall that no one else could or would have.

Ronri, I remember you also realised that Solid had the same ideology as the Boss, back then when you brought this up I didn't agree with you. But you were right all along

I highly agree, but I'd phrase it differently. It's not that Snake held the same ideology as The Boss, rather what I find compelling about the parallels between them is that Snake's actions and relentless faith in fighting for others "embodies" The Boss's ideals. It's less to do with Snake and The Boss being the same and rather about how Snake embodied the kind of ideals that The Boss had wished for Big Boss. Kojima outright says that had Snake been in Big Boss's place, he actually wouldn't have made the same mistakes as Big Boss did. That's right, Kojima outright says that Snake would have done a MUCH better job than his favorite MGS poster boy "Beeg Bawss". Just let that sink in.

And Solidus, that's what I mean by how The Boss's loyalty is separate from her personal opinions/feelings. Snake's actions were based on his personal convictions in fighting for what he believes in all without causing major wars. The Boss's loyalty should have served as the last example for how loyalty to one's country can ruin a person. Heck her own personal views very much contradict the notion of loyalty based on how she felt about a world without East and West (her space travel ring any bells?) So no, The Boss wasn't just "all about loyalty". Her loyalty is a mark of her unrelenting attitude to shoulder the burden that others couldn't possibly take, it's not what defines her personal views at all. She's not just about "loyalty", her character is far more 3-D than someone who just follows orders blindly without questioning its results.

Again, The Boss purposely put herself on the path of a loyal soldier in hopes of paving way for a better future. That's what makes her such a martyr, she didn't live a life that she was happy with yet she willingly sacrificed everything in her life for the greater good.

As for the parallels from Philanthropy's motto to The Boss' philosophy, I think Kojima just likes reusing themes, especially whenever they sound cool or edgy, and it often adds unnecessary confusion into the mix. In a more recent example, do you remember in Ground Zeroes, when Skull Face echoed the almost the exact same words to Chico as Big Boss did in Peace Walker? "You're a real man now, soldier".

Actually the thing about that last parallel you mentioned might not seem so ridiculous in drawing comparisons between the two, especially if the TPP trailers are anything to go by. If anything it's frightening in that it gives credibility to the prospect that Big Boss might work alongside Skull Face to take down Zero since their views might align in some aspects.

Also Solidus:

I was never under the impression that Solid Snake actually had a philosophical care about setting the world right

Yeah MGS2 begs to differ:

"Life isn't just about passing on your genes. We can leave behind much more than just DNA. Through speech, music, literature and movies...what we've seen, heard, felt...anger, joy and sorrow...these are the things I will pass on. That's what I live for. We need to pass the torch, and let our children read our messy and sad history by its light.We have all the magic of the digital age to do that with. The human race will probably come to an end some time, and new species may rule over this planet. Earth may not be forever, but we still have the responsibility to leave what traces of life we can. Building the future and keeping the past alive are one and the same thing."

His primary state in MGS4 may have soured his attitude towards a brighter future, but it's downright false to say that Snake wasn't fighting for something more than himself, even if they're just based on his own personal conviction.

 

[SavageSloth]

Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the mgs game section rather then the collectables? I know the head sculpt discussion could stay, but the backstory shouldn't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jameson Rook]

Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the mgs game section rather then the collectables? I know the head sculpt discussion could stay, but the backstory shouldn't.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, it should. We already have a MGS general discussions thread.. somewhere.

 

[Solidus]

I'll just leave it as this:

Yeah MGS2 begs to differ:
"Life isn't just about passing on your genes. We can leave behind much more than just DNA. Through speech, music, literature and movies...what we've seen, heard, felt...anger, joy and sorrow...these are the things I will pass on. That's what I live for. We need to pass the torch, and let our children read our messy and sad history by its light.We have all the magic of the digital age to do that with. The human race will probably come to an end some time, and new species may rule over this planet. Earth may not be forever, but we still have the responsibility to leave what traces of life we can. Building the future and keeping the past alive are one and the same thing."
His primary state in MGS4 may have soured his attitude towards a brighter future, but it's downright false to say that Snake wasn't fighting for something more than himself, even if they're just based on his own personal conviction.

You're confusing Snake's general view on life about propagating the species through cultural and social influences, with a war manifesto . That entire monologue in MGS 2 alluded to the social themes and memes that Kojima had placed inside of MGS 2, and it served simply as a concluding statement to finalize the overall discourse of the game.

Snake never had notions of "loyalty to the end", or fighting for cause that was greater than himself, unlike The Boss. He was highly apathetic about the world, aside from his personal war against Big Boss and Liquid (which included his work in Philanthropy to rid the world of Metal Gears). He even told Olga, "I'm a nomad, too" - which referenced the way he lived his life on the fringe, away from governments, and away from the rule of law and society.

 

[GasparZizou]

Snake never had notions of "loyalty to the end", or fighting for cause that was greater than himself, like The Boss. He was highly apathetic about the world, aside from his personal war against Big Boss and Liquid. He even told Olga, "I'm a nomad, too" - which referenced the way he lived his life on the fringe, away from governments, and away from the rule of law and society.

I'm not following the current debates, but I like this post, this post is good.

That is why I like Snake the most.

 

[Solidus]

On a related note, remember in MGS 4 when Snake was just hanging out in the graveyard? Roy Campbell had to drop in to find Snake, and tell him about Liquid . It's pretty clear that Snake was probably even retired at this point, because of his advanced aging. But, when Campbell finally told him, "We've found him" (Liquid), "track him down", the look on Snake's face (as it was portrayed by the character render) was like, "I'm getting too old for this ****".

 

[Jameson Rook]

On a related note, remember in MGS 4 when Snake was just hanging out in the graveyard? Roy Campbell had to drop in to find Snake, and tell him about Liquid . It's pretty clear that Snake was probably even retired at this point, because of his advanced aging. But, when Campbell finally told him, "We've found him" (Liquid), "track him down", the look on Snake's face (as it was portrayed by the character render) was like, "I'm getting too old for this ****".

Fact is that MGS4 was a metaphor for Kojima wanting a way out from MGS. You can tell that the game wasn't as lovingly written as MGS1,2 and 3. Unfortunately, there is no way out, not for Kojima. MGSVI, VII, etc will be made, and they will be GREAT games, it's just that as a fan, I might have a burnout keeping up with the canon.

 

[Solidus]

Yeah, he's in this series for life. And maaaaybe the heavy themes in Ground Zeroes was the like dark and bitter realization that he will never be freed from it >__>.