Official "The Dark Knight" SPOILER Thread

[Buttmunch]

I don't think he intended to kill Two Face so his rule still stands. If he didnt act, Gordon or his son would have been killed.

I believe his rule always applies, no matter what the situation. He could have let the Joker fall to his death in self defense or whatever, but he didn't. Him killing Two-face is out of character and does in fact break his one rule. Even if he didn't mean to, he did in fact kill him. Therefore, the Joker won because he made Batman break his one rule.

Now with Ra's, he didn't kill him. He just didn't save him. I have no problem with that. He didn't blow up the monorail - Gordon did. Gordon killed Ra's.

But Batman breaking his one rule is a big issue to me and I don't see why you guys aren't picking up on that. If Batman can break his one rule in certain cases, what will prevent him from flat out breaking his rule just when he feels like it. I think this is Nolan's first true mistake. The only way to correct this mistake would be to bring back Two-face in the third part. But if not (which it isn't looking like it), Batman broke his one rule and the Joker got the last laugh.

 

[Moonloop]

I could be wrong, but I don't really remember that drop being that much higher than the one Batman dropped Sal Moroni from so he could live. Plus him surviving for me wouldn't be a departure from realism anymore than having half your face severely burned, but being able to get out of bed and kill people the next day.

Yeah, but Sal landed on his feet and broke his leg. Dent could have landed on his back and instantly been killed, or hit his head and instantly be killed as well.

 

[Buttmunch]

Yeah, but Sal landed on his feet and broke his leg. Dent could have landed on his back and instantly been killed, or hit his head and instantly be killed as well.

Then what about that Batman/Rachel fall during the party? They were up a lot higher and didn't slow down until they landed on the cop car. Neither was injured in the slightest. Again, Nolan's only mistake is the ending with Two-face. It just doesn't hold up with the rest of the movie.

 

[IrishJedi]

You guys are gonna burn yourselves out on this movie before it even hits DVD/Blu-ray.

 

[DarkArtist81]

I think that Batman did everything he could, he grabbed the child and got him to Gordon before falling himself. He would have tried to save them both, but there was no way... so he had to choose....

And again he didn't choose Dent. I don't see it as being his fault or against his "one rule"... but that's just me. It's interesting to note that once Gordon had his son, Batman wearily fell to the ground. He was pushing hard enough to save one of them as it was.

Joker was different, HE intentionally tossed him.

 

[Buttmunch]

I think that Batman did everything he could, he grabbed the child and got him to Gordon before falling himself. He would have tried to save them both, but there was no way... so he had to choose....

And again he didn't choose Dent. I don't see it as being his fault or against his "one rule"... but that's just me. It's interesting to note that once Gordon had his son, Batman wearily fell to the ground. He was pushing hard enough to save one of them as it was.

Joker was different, HE intentionally tossed him.

Why didn't he just grab both of them and take the impact of the fall like he did when he caught Rachel? He could have knocked the gun out of Two-Face's hand in the inital tackle, but hung on to both of them until they hit the ground and then subdue Two-Face.

And of course there is always the old Batarang to the hand, knocking the gun out of his hand, trick that he has used countless times before.

I still think Nolan, not Batman, made the real mistake here.

 

[EVILFACE]

I you think he killed Two Face, then you have to believe he killed Ras cause he chose not to save him which led to his death.

He didn't break the rule, what happened, happened. Batman did not break his rule and the civilized people did not eat each other. The Joker lost.

 

[cerealkeller]

Why didn't he just grab both of them and take the impact of the fall like he did when he caught Rachel? He could have knocked the gun out of Two-Face's hand in the inital tackle, but hung on to both of them until they hit the ground and then subdue Two-Face.

And of course there is always the old Batarang to the hand, knocking the gun out of his hand, trick that he has used countless times before.

I still think Nolan, not Batman, made the real mistake here.

I have to agree. It just seemed sloppy on Nolan's part to let Tow-Face die like this. It went against Batman's "one rule" and we saw numerous falls in this movie that didn't kill anyone. I love Two-Face and the character was never this brilliantly showcased before IMO. But the ending left a sour taste in my mouth. Too bad too because all the stuff before the fall off the roof was some of the most gut wrenching stuff in the film. It was perfect until the fall off the roof which would have been okay if the camera would have panned down to reveal Batman holding onto both little James and two-Face.

 

[Buttmunch]

I you think he killed Two Face, then you have to believe he killed Ras cause he chose not to save him which led to his death.

He didn't break the rule, what happened, happened. Batman did not break his rule and the civilized people did not eat each other. The Joker lost.

How so? Batman chose not to save Ra's. Gordon is who destroyed the bridge that lead to Ra's death. Batman just left him there to die. He is possibly only indirectly responible by destroying the breaks, but the chances are Ra's wouldn't have been able to stop the train in time to save himself anyway.

With Two-Face, Batman directly tackled him over the edge of that building. He was deliberately and directly responsible for Two-Face's death, thus breaking his one rule, and therefore Joker winning in the end by breaking Batman AND Harvey.

 

[Buttmunch]

I have to agree. It just seemed sloppy on Nolan's part to let Tow-Face die like this. It went against Batman's "one rule" and we saw numerous falls in this movie that didn't kill anyone. I love Two-Face and the character was never this brilliantly showcased before IMO. But the ending left a sour taste in my mouth. Too bad too because all the stuff before the fall off the roof was some of the most gut wrenching stuff in the film. It was perfect until the fall off the roof which would have been okay if the camera would have panned down to reveal Batman holding onto both little James and two-Face.

I agree, of course

After thinking it over, this is really the only major flaw of the film. If Batman had killed Two-Face like he did in Batman Forever, I would be fine with it. Two-face would have killed himself trying to grab his coin, but here, Batman is directly responsible for killing him, which plays against the scene previous. Batman could have let Joker live, but he couldn't out of some misplaced self-righteousness, as the Joker says. When comparing the two scenes, it is really a major flaw. Batman just contradicted the film's main message within 5 minutes!

 

[DarkArtist81]

I agree, of course

After thinking it over, this is really the only major flaw of the film. If Batman had killed Two-Face like he did in Batman Forever, I would be fine with it. Two-face would have killed himself trying to grab his coin, but here, Batman is directly responsible for killing him, which plays against the scene previous. Batman could have let Joker live, but he couldn't out of some misplaced self-righteousness, as the Joker says. When comparing the two scenes, it is really a major flaw. Batman just contradicted the film's main message within 5 minutes!

I don't think so... That Forever scene was horrible, and WAAY more blatant an attempt to kill a villain.

The best way to think of this is that Batman had only seconds to react, he was shot and slightly stunned... not to mention weak by that point after fighting the Joker. So he wasn't in a position to think over his decision before jumping at Harvey and grabbing Gordon's son. No freakin way he could have taken the fall holding them both.. That would have endangered the kid.

Earlier, when falling with Rachel... He had no choice but to hold on to her, try to break his fall with his cape and hope that she wouldn't get hurt. The cape slowed their fall a bit, but they got lucky.

I don't see it as a conscious attempt to kill Harvey, he just had to do something... he made a rough choice that endangered them all, he is human afterall. Batman can make mistakes. I like it better that way, it's not as clean and therefore... more realistic.

Still sucks that Harvey died, but I don't see it as Batman breaking his rule.

 

[scubasteve]

If Batman had done nothing, Dent wouldn't have killed the boy OR Gordon.

If you remember, the coin landed heads up after he got tackled. Yet another minute but critical detail. I'd have preferred a good punch ala the one he laid on Ramirez

 

[EVILFACE]

How so? Batman chose not to save Ra's. Gordon is who destroyed the bridge that lead to Ra's death. Batman just left him there to die. He is possibly only indirectly responible by destroying the breaks, but the chances are Ra's wouldn't have been able to stop the train in time to save himself anyway.

With Two-Face, Batman directly tackled him over the edge of that building. He was deliberately and directly responsible for Two-Face's death, thus breaking his one rule, and therefore Joker winning in the end by breaking Batman AND Harvey.

From now on, you shall be known as Fence Post!

 

[EVILFACE]

If Batman had done nothing, Dent wouldn't have killed the boy OR Gordon.

If you remember, the coin landed heads up after he got tackled. Yet another minute but critical detail.

Didn't the coin land clean up for Batman as well, but he still shot him?

 

[Buttmunch]

I don't think so... That Forever scene was horrible, and WAAY more blatant an attempt to kill a villain.

The best way to think of this is that Batman had only seconds to react, he was shot and slightly stunned... not to mention weak by that point after fighting the Joker. So he wasn't in a position to think over his decision before jumping at Harvey and grabbing Gordon's son. No freakin way he could have taken the fall holding them both.. That would have endangered the kid.

Earlier, when falling with Rachel... He had no choice but to hold on to her, try to break his fall with his cape and hope that she wouldn't get hurt. The cape slowed their fall a bit, but they got lucky.

I don't see it as a conscious attempt to kill Harvey, he just had to do something... he made a rough choice that endangered them all, he is human afterall. Batman can make mistakes. I like it better that way, it's not as clean and therefore... more realistic.

Still sucks that Harvey died, but I don't see it as Batman breaking his rule.

I suppose the Forever example was bad. I guess I should have said Batman could have just Bataranged the coin/gun and bought himself some time there instead of just charging in, and possibly having Two-face kill Jimmy in the clash.

Even if Batman's killing of Harvey was an accident, he should have felt a tremendous amount of guilt when he got back up. Because he did in fact kill a man. Even in the Justice League cartoon when Deadman temporarily posesed Batman and shot and killed a guy, Batman felt terrible about it even though he wasn't in control of his body.

Either way I just felt Nolan really dropped the ball on this whole scene. I can accept it if Two-Face had to die, but I just don't like the way it played out. It still seems to me Batman broke his rule that he just avoided doing in the previous scene.

 

[CelticPredator]

No. But the coin didnt land yet, Batman hit Dent, and the coin flipped out of his hand....so I thought the luck was on Batman rather then Dent.....eh.

 

[Buttmunch]

From now on, you shall be known as Fence Post!

Batman's rule is to not kill anyone. He can sit back and watch people die all he wants just as long as he isn't the one killing them. The villians of the world will look up and shot save us, and he will whisper, "No."

Didn't the coin land clean up for Batman as well, but he still shot him?

Nope, bad side up. To Two-face, the coin is law. Even though he wanted Maroni dead, he obeyed the coin's judgement. Being a good lawyer, he saw a loophole in being able to kill the driver and hopefully killing Maroni in the process.

 

[scubasteve]

I see your point though, munch, and I have to agree. Dent died as a result of Batman intervening. He broke his rule, but he had to save the kid.

Anyways, I've had enough of this Dent talk

 

[Buttmunch]

I see your point though, munch, and I have to agree. Dent died as a result of Batman intervening. He broke his rule, but he had to save the kid.

Anyways, I've had enough of this Dent talk

Fair enough, but then I still think there should have been more remorse on Batman's part. He broke his one rule, but he did it to save someone. Is that fair? Is that justified? Had he not saved Dent from the Joker's bomb earlier, none of that would have happened. Should he have gone after Dent in the first place, and thus saving Rachel by mistake? There are a lot of things to consider that I just don't think were done justice by the ending Nolan gave us. For such an amazing film, it is all the more confusing why Nolan ended it the way he did.

 

[DarkArtist81]

One last thing before I go off to bed... I too think it was because Batman intervened that Dent died. It was an accident. Though like BM said, it would have been nice to see a bit more sadness on Batman's part...for what happened.

As for the coin landing... it landed on the ground.. which means that it would have flipped countless more times before hitting. It doesn't mean that just because it landed on clean heads then, that it would have landed there in his palm.

It's landing is a foreshadowing that Gordon's son lives. Just a funny little thing. But it doesn't necessarily mean it would have landed that way had Dent caught it.