Presidential Debate McCain vs Obama Round 2

[RoboDad]

wtf?

The latest West Virginia poll has Obama up 8! Even I don't think this is true. I highly doubt WV will turn blue this year, but it is just interesting to see. These polls have been crazy. Can we see a whole new map this year?

https://americanresearchgroup.com/pres2008/WV08.html

I don't know that I'm all that surprised. As has been said, a bad economy always plays better for Democrats than Republicans (not that there is any real logic behind that perception, but I digress). The worse things get, the better it will be for Obama's final tally on November 4th.

Of course, once he wins, you can expect the tone of most news reports to suddenly become much more optimistic and hopeful for a bright future just around the next corner (except those on Fox News, where things will suddenly look even worse).

 

[RoboDad]

While this is certainly true, and there are extremists on both sides, I believe the Republican party to be more often than not the party of intolerance, bigotry and desire to maintain the status quo. I'm sure there are some democrats, but most racists, homophobes and pro death (hunting,war,capitol punishment,etc) people I see and hear all vote for the GOP. Just my 2 cents.

I would have to disagree with you here. If you want to define the parameters of what can be included in the category of "intolerance" to such narrow scope, then of course your claim appears to be valid. But my belief is that intolerance know no political affiliation, and that, as a general rule, the numbers of intolerant people in each party are very similar, though the subject of their intolerance may differ.

 

[DarkArtist81]

But my belief is that intolerance know no political affiliation, and that, as a general rule, the numbers of intolerant people in each party are very similar, though the subject of their intolerance may differ.

With that sentence, you hit it on the head. The intolerance my differ in it's subject matter, but it's still there. Both sides tend to have a few radical members that go to rather harsh extremes to push their views or slander the opposing side.

 

[Entropy]

I would have to disagree with you here. If you want to define the parameters of what can be included in the category of "intolerance" to such narrow scope, then of course your claim appears to be valid. But my belief is that intolerance know no political affiliation, and that, as a general rule, the numbers of intolerant people in each party are very similar, though the subject of their intolerance may differ.

I just can't recall the last time I saw a bunch of Democrats picketing with signs that read "God hates you" or heard about a Klan member who voted Democrat. I'm not saying that some members of the left aren't intolerant, just that the GOP seems to draw and appeal more so to those radicals who preach hate. It's nice to think that intolerance is evenly split among both sides, but I don't think that's the case from what I've seen and heard, especially when you pick one side with like minded people. I haven't heard anyone at an Obama rally scream out that McCain is a terrorist or call for his death, for instance.

I went to a private showing of the last debate at a theater and there was a republican woman there who alerted the manager that she saw another woman there with her daughter wearing a (whisper) burka in the theater with a (gasp) cell phone and wanted the manger to pull the woman out of the theater and search her. When the manager refused, she became quite angry. Sad thing is, she thought she was being a good citizen by alerting someone that she saw a Muslim. Agree with their policies or not, I just don't see or hear about any of that stuff happening with the Democrats.

 

[RoboDad]

Well, since our perspective is bound to color our perception, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Anything less would be... intolerant.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Its very rare to see a Democrat that believes in gay rights, but not abortion rights or vice versa.

I think you're more likely to see a Republican with their own distinctive view.

In the Democratic party, you're stigmatized and crucified if you don't fall in with the concensus...and that concensus for the democratic party is based on garnering a quantity of votes. People like Jessie Jackson have compromised their beliefs on stuff like homosexuality in order to grab the gay vote to help with black issues...etc.

 

[Entropy]

Well, since our perspective is bound to color our perception, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Anything less would be... intolerant.

That's cool. But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the usual characterization of the Dems by Repubs that they are tree hugging, dope smoking, love everyone, equality for all (homosexuals, the poor, minorities, etc) peace-nics that are soft on criminals and terrorists? I just don't get a "party of hate" or intolerance vibe from that characterization.

 

[IrishJedi]

I have friends all over the political spectrum, of course (which is one reason why I generally dislike discussing politics, religion, etc). And I can honestly say that my more "Liberal" friends have definitely demonstrated a lot of pure mean-spiritedness and spiteful rhetoric at times, probably even more than the Conservos. I know they are surely more elitist and pretentious in their discourse when they get together.

 

[Entropy]

I have friends all over the political spectrum, of course (which is one reason why I generally dislike discussing politics, religion, etc). And I can honestly say that my more "Liberal" friends have definitely demonstrated a lot of pure mean-spiritedness and spiteful rhetoric, probably even more than the Conservos.

Just curious. examples?

Have they ranted against conservatives and the Bush admin. or against homosexuals, minorities and other groups?

 

[IrishJedi]

They've ranted against Bush, of course. But I've also observed them ranting against Christians (or anyone with faith) and "anyone who is dumb enough to ever vote for a Republican". Of particular note is a remark by one (who posts here, so I won't mention the name) who said, point blank, "Any woman who votes for Sarah Palin is an idiot." This was less than a week after she was announced as the VP candidate.

Trust me, there are judgemental, hateful, irrational pinheads on BOTH sides. The extremists, if you will. Heck, we haven't even touched on the fringe of the radical Feminists who actually believe that all men are rapists.

There is crazy everywhere... it's not exclusive to Conservative Republicans by any means.

Tomandshell is absolutely correct when he says, "Politics brings out the worst in everyone".

 

[Spartan Rex]

I just can't recall the last time I saw a bunch of Democrats picketing with signs that read "God hates you" or heard about a Klan member who voted Democrat.

....I give you the dishonorable Sen. Robert Byrd.
That was an easy one.
Please stop while youre behind or you risk gagging some of us with your hypocrisy.
I can go on all day with examples.
Just walk away from this topic.

 

[ProgMatinee]

Not to mention in general Democrats have an intolerance for letting people do what they will with the money they earned.

"Dear ProgMatinee, congrats on having a job, not taking out bad loans, not getting multiple women pregnant, not taking unemployment checks, donating to a charity of your choice, not smoking, not doing drugs, not getting abortions, not contracting diseases, not coming into the country illegally, driving with insurance and 1000000 other things decent folk do. You were a great model citizen. Now give us money so we can pay all the people that weren't and by the way, you must "tolerate" any of these people that are taking your money and they are allowed to hate you for being a Christian and force you not to talk to them about it or otherwise express your disappointment for raping you up the ass and spitting on your face at the same time."

 

[Entropy]

....I give you the dishonorable Sen. Robert Byrd.
That was an easy one.
Please stop while youre behind or you risk gagging some of us with your hypocrisy.
I can go on all day with examples.
Just walk away from this topic.

WTH? I didn't say anything condescending or insulting about you. Are you capable of showing myself and others the same respect or does a mod need to lock this thread? When you respond so rudely it just hobbles any point you are trying to make and re-enforces the view that Republicans like you are angry, venomous a-hole jerks. Please be considerate, ok?

I was merely asking questions and discussing the topic and I agree with you that Byrd is an idiot.

 

[Spartan Rex]

A mod may have to lock it if I have to give more examples.
Nothing will make me go thermonuclear faster then having to respond
to the classic "Our ^^^^^ dont stink but yours sure does" arguments.
Thats why Im saying back off the topic or Ill jump in with both barrels.
...and that was me being friendly

 

[RoboDad]

Just curious. examples?

Have they ranted against conservatives and the Bush admin. or against homosexuals, minorities and other groups?

This is what I was referring to earlier, when I suggested that it doesn't encourage open discussion if you first try to define the parameters of the discussion in such a way that it tends to favor your opinions or biases.

"Intolerance" does not imply, on any level, intolerance toward homosexuals, minorities, women, or any other specific group, nor does it require an outward display of physical aggression. It can take many forms.

 

[Entropy]

This is what I was referring to earlier, when I suggested that it doesn't encourage open discussion if you first try to define the parameters of the discussion in such a way that it tends to favor your opinions or biases.

"Intolerance" does not imply, on any level, intolerance toward homosexuals, minorities, women, or any other specific group, nor does it require an outward display of physical aggression. It can take many forms.

Sorry, just trying to list some specific examples of groups other than 'the opposing party' not necessarily frame it in a certain way. Those were the first examples I thought of. Call it bigotry, intolerance, hate or whathaveyou, I was looking for specific, obvious, quantifiable examples of this occurring with groups of Dems, not vague "many forms of intolerance".

And I was mostly interested in physical aggression, as that is the most easily identifiable and generally the most destructive form of intolerance - is this more prevent in Republicans than Democrats? One I thought of was PETA. Their tactics and rhetoric are just as extreme, violent and hateful as Fred Phelps. We can be respectful to each other and still make our voices heard, whether in public life or on this forum. I was stating that it often seems to me that intolerance and violent attacks targeting certain groups seems to occur more with the Republicans. If you can think of others, Sparten Rex, without resorting to name calling, I'd like to read them.


But I did want to thank you Robodad and the rest who have discussed hot topics like this with a cool head.

 

[The Ween]

When an armed man breaks into my house in the middle of the night to do harm to my family, I will not accept anything less than the ability to use a gun. Tell me, how many criminals obey gun laws? WHat's the point of enacting such laws, only us law abiding citizens will listen to them.


This is my greatest fear of an Obama presidency, he rabidly opposes the second amendment, and is even against defending yourself in your home. No that's not partisanship or untrue, just a concerned citizen telling the truth.

If someone breaks into your home, make sure you shoot him INSIDE your house and also, make sure you kill him. If you don't do both of these you've opened yourself up to be sued. I kid you not.

 

[Entropy]

They've ranted against Bush, of course. But I've also observed them ranting against Christians (or anyone with faith) and "anyone who is dumb enough to ever vote for a Republican". Of particular note is a remark by one (who posts here, so I won't mention the name) who said, point blank, "Any woman who votes for Sarah Palin is an idiot." This was less than a week after she was announced as the VP candidate.

Trust me, there are judgemental, hateful, irrational pinheads on BOTH sides. The extremists, if you will. Heck, we haven't even touched on the fringe of the radical Feminists who actually believe that all men are rapists.

There is crazy everywhere... it's not exclusive to Conservative Republicans by any means.

Tomandshell is absolutely correct when he says, "Politics brings out the worst in everyone".

Cool. Thanks Irish.

I hear the unfair disparaging of Christains all the time, but they hardly ever have rallies or turn violent. And I forgot about the wacky 'men = rapist' people.

 

[LChinoz]

Please stop while youre behind or you risk gagging some of us with your hypocrisy.

First, Byrd is an Obama supporter, so he obviously changed his tune. Second, sure there is hypocrisy, but can anyone defend this hypocrisy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBaCcRMStxc

Just saying it is on both sides...

 

[The Ween]

Not to mention in general Democrats have an intolerance for letting people do what they will with the money they earned.

"Dear ProgMatinee, congrats on having a job, not taking out bad loans, not getting multiple women pregnant, not taking unemployment checks, donating to a charity of your choice, not smoking, not doing drugs, not getting abortions, not contracting diseases, not coming into the country illegally, driving with insurance and 1000000 other things decent folk do. You were a great model citizen. Now give us money so we can pay all the people that weren't and by the way, you must "tolerate" any of these people that are taking your money and they are allowed to hate you for being a Christian and force you not to talk to them about it or otherwise express your disappointment for raping you up the ass and spitting on your face at the same time."

They all want your money, Dems and Reps. McCain wants to tax your health benefits! They all find a way to stick their hand in your pocket.