Presidential Debate Tonight - Obama vs. McCain.... DING, DING, DING

[gdb]

Not putting your hand over your heart isnt unpatriotic, however add that to his association with Bill Ayers a known terrorist,

You're purposefully confusing the words "known terrorist" with "respected prof, former radical."

his America hating pastor,

A black man calling to ******* America in order to make a point about America's history is hardely proof of hatred. America's history with the black people is hardly something to be proud of.

Tony Riesco ties,

Being a good negotiator when it comes to real estate is hardly a deal breaker.

,the 3rd most liberal senator in congress, wanting to raise taxes,

With two ongoing wars, isn't it a bit unpatriotic to be trying to fearmonger on the idea of paying for those wars with new taxes? The reality is that Obama's plan will cut more taxes than McCain's plan.

Michelle's "For the first time proud to be an American..."comment,

Even Bill O'Reilly has dismissed the idea of reading too much into this qoute.

being a Ivy league lawyer,

Um, your point being...? Ignorance is bliss? Education is bad? I don't follow.

tells a S.F. crowd that "bitter small town americans cling to guns or religion",

Taken out of context that does sound awkward. But so does John McCain's joke at a Republican dinner in 1998, "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”

no history of bipartisan ship,

A) that's not true.
and B) since we've seen what happens when Republicans get their way the last 8 years, I'm not sure letting them have too much power is a good thing right now. Maybe they need to do some more house cleaning before they get to play again.

comes out of the historically corrupt Chicago political machine.....

As apposed to being an active participant in the corrupt Keating Five.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/24/john-mccains-keating-five_n_128807.html

 

[The Josh]

I don't put my hand over my heart during the NA. Does that make me unpatriotic?

His associations with ayers is nothing more than serving on a few boards together and this guy has a history with some repubs as well. What the guy did 40 years ago are not good but I have a feeling McCain has a few of these types in his woodshed.

The stuff with Tony Rezko is a bit shady. Its an issue I'd like him not to have but I don't know a person in Washington or Politics in general that doesn't have one. You cannot say that the other side of the isle doesn't have their fair share either.

His pastor is a piece of work. A complete douche bag and again I'm glad Obama did the right thing and dropped the guy. I've got an uncle that that preaches and is a bit racist in some of his remarks. Is that an indictment of me? I mean come on just because you listen to someone doesn't mean thats who you are.

Ah raising taxes. He wants to raise taxes on folks making 250k or more a year. How many of us does that actually hit here? I doubt too many if any at all. You will actually get more money back based on his tax plan. It also in the long run will help how things are going contrary to what McCain's plan which has shown will only make things worse.

Being liberal is BFD item. Its no worse than being a Conservative. I don't find being a liberal a bad thing.

Some defenitions for ya

favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers

So I have no problem with him being liberal.

Michell's comments where taken out of context and cut down so the right could play games. I know that shocks ya doesn't it.

"For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback."

She also said it like this later the same night

"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country, and not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change."[

So you tell me whats wrong with either of those. I see nothing at all and I actually agree. I'm proud for the first time in a long time this country is saying enough.

Not only is your quote wrong like what the wonderful right not knowing what they're talking about and twisting crap.

He's bad for being an Ivy League lawyer? Is that supposed to be bad? He went to a nice school and got a great degree. I have no problem with that. Do you? Are you jealous he did something you couldn't? I could go on but I digress.

I'm I live in a small town in the middle of the country and this comment is dead on. People in the MW tend to be very tied to their guns and religion when things get tough.

Here's the quote.

You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Coming out of Chicago is no worse than anything that was stolen in the last two Presidential Elections.

Thats just off the top of my head.

Not putting your hand over your heart isnt unpatriotic, however add that to his association with Bill Ayers a known terrorist, his America hating pastor,Tony Riesco ties,the 3rd most liberal senator in congress, wanting to raise taxes, Michelle's "For the first time proud to be an American..."comment, being a Ivy league lawyer, tells a S.F. crowd that "bitter small town americans cling to guns or religion", no history of bipartisan ship, comes out of the historically corrupt Chicago political machine.....take that sum total and this guy stinks to high heaven.


Thats just off the top of my head.

 

[DarkArtist81]

You're purposefully confusing the words "known terrorist" with "respected prof, former radical."

A black man calling to ******* America in order to make a point about America's history is hardely proof of hatred. America's history with the black people is hardly something to be proud of.

Being a good negotiator when it comes to real estate is hardly a deal breaker.

With two ongoing wars, isn't it a bit unpatriotic to be trying to fearmonger on the idea of paying for those wars with new taxes? The reality is that Obama's plan will cut more taxes than McCain's plan.

Even Bill O'Reilly has dismissed the idea of reading too much into this qoute.

Um, your point being...? Ignorance is bliss? Education is bad? I don't follow.

Taken out of context that does sound awkward. But so does John McCain's joke at a Republican dinner in 1998, "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”

A) that's not true.
and B) since we've seen what happens when Republicans get their way the last 8 years, I'm not sure letting them have too much power is a good thing right now. Maybe they need to do some more house cleaning before they get to play again.

As apposed to being an active participant in the corrupt Keating Five.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/24/john-mccains-keating-five_n_128807.html

You rock man.

Oh, where's hoodonit... check it out... a Liberal with a link!

 

[Mesa]

No... The only thing I expect out of my leader would be for him to do his job honorably, to try to do what is best for the people, to respect our country and the people within it, to respect the Bill of Rights and our basic freedoms, and to do his best to keep us the best country on the planet. That's all I care about.

The Code of Military Conduct is just that... for Military men and women. It has no bearing whatsoever for our political leaders. They wear no uniforms, they stand no watches, they don't fall under that rule structure.

Can you imagine if the person that you took commands from didn't even honor the flag? That's like being the coach of the (insert football team here) but not really caring about football in the least.

I'm guessing if you put a Commander in Chief on the podium to deliver a speech to try and rally the troops and he won't even salute the flag or put his hand over his heart during the pledge, it wouldn't be too good for morale or motivating the troops to go fight for their country.

 

[DarkArtist81]

And Josh.. thank you for reminding me.. My Political Science instructor today was just going over that, what it really means to be Liberal or Conservative.

Conservative: One who wants less Government influence on economic concerns and more influence on social levels.

Liberal: One who wants more Government influence on economic concerns and less on social levels.

 

[The Josh]

And Josh.. thank you for reminding me.. My Political Science instructor today was just going over that, what it really means to be Liberal or Conservative.

Conservative: One who wants less Government influence on economic concerns and more influence on social levels.

Liberal: One who wants more Government influence on economic concerns and less on social levels.

No problem. I love how the word liberal gets looked at as a bad thing. Its far from that but getting some to understand that is a long hard road.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Can you imagine if the person that you took commands from didn't even honor the flag? That's like being the coach of the (insert football team here) but not really caring about football in the least.

I'm guessing if you put a Commander in Chief on the podium to deliver a speech to try and rally the troops and he won't even salute the flag or put his hand over his heart during the pledge, it wouldn't be too good for morale or motivating the troops to go fight for their country.

No it doesn't. It doesn't affect his ability to lead in the slightest. I wouldn't even notice. In fact, none of my Commanders ever did any of those things in front of us. He just showed up in uniform and gave speeches that got us ready to do our duty, if he declared that he wasn't going to wear a flag patch on his flight suit because he felt it was a cheap way to try and look patriotic... I would actually respect him deeply for having the guts to say so.. just like I do Obama.

Following tradition does not make a good leader, leading men responsibly makes a good leader.

 

[Mesa]

No it doesn't. It doesn't affect his ability to lead in the slightest. I wouldn't even notice. In fact, none of my Commanders ever did any of those things in front of us. He just showed up in uniform and gave speeches that got us ready to do our duty, if he declared that he wasn't going to wear a flag patch on his flight suit because he felt it was a cheap way to try and look patriotic... I would actually respect him deeply for having the guts to say so.. just like I do Obama.

Following tradition does not make a good leader, leading men responsibly makes a good leader.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Personally, I don't see how you can have someone leading the Unites States of America that doesn't acknowledge our flag.

And if I was ever in a situation where someone tried to disrespect it, spit on it, burn it, I would do my best to "stop" it. Freedom of speech, etc, etc. etc, I'd still "stop" it, most likely with fists. You want to disrepect the flag, move to Syria or Iran. In the US, it deserves and commands respect. Try and pull that crap in some other country that doesn't have freedom of speech and see how far you get.

 

[The Josh]

The thing is we have freedom of speech. If you want to stop someone from that you might want to move to Syria or Iran.

Shocking a Republican wanting to take away someones rights.

 

[RoboDad]

Following tradition does not make a good leader, leading men responsibly makes a good leader.

Just so I'm clear, Josh, are you only saying that it doesn't matter one way or the other to you, or are you opposed to a leader who observes such conventions (assuming that they are a good leader in other ways as well)?

 

[DarkArtist81]

Well dude, not putting your hand over your heart is NOT showing a lack of acknowledgment of the Flag. You can show reverence in other ways, you know. Not following tradition doesn't make you a flag burner.

 

[The Josh]

Well dude, not putting your hand over your heart is NOT showing a lack of acknowledgment of the Flag. You can show reverence in other ways, you know. Not following tradition doesn't make you a flag burner.

Exactly! I don't during the NA and I don't consider myself a flag burner.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Just so I'm clear, Josh, are you only saying that it doesn't matter one way or the other to you, or are you opposed to a leader who observes such conventions (assuming that they are a good leader in other ways as well)?

I'm saying that it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm saying that not holding your hand over your heart does not make you unpatriotic or undeserving of leadership.

The real importance lies in your character, and your responsibility in leading the nation.

 

[Mesa]

The thing is we have freedom of speech. If you want to stop someone from that you might want to move to Syria or Iran.

Shocking a Republican wanting to take away someones rights.

All I'm saying is, don't disrespect the symbol of OUR country in front of me.

 

[Bannister]

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Personally, I don't see how you can have someone leading the Unites States of America that doesn't acknowledge our flag.

And if I was ever in a situation where someone tried to disrespect it, spit on it, burn it, I would do my best to "stop" it. Freedom of speech, etc, etc. etc, I'd still "stop" it, most likely with fists. You want to disrepect the flag, move to Syria or Iran. In the US, it deserves and commands respect. Try and pull that crap in some other country that doesn't have freedom of speech and see how far you get.

You would honestly get in a fist fight with someone if they didn't put their hand over their heart during the National Anthem, since you consider that disrespectful.

 

[RoboDad]

I'm saying that it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm saying that not holding your hand over your heart does not make you unpatriotic or undeserving of leadership.

The real importance lies in your character, and your responsibility in leading the nation.

OK, thanks. I thought that was what you meant, but I couldn't be sure.

But I would ask one question. With all else being equal, what harm would it do to also follow the convention? I'm not saying you should, I'm just saying that, if doing or not doing something makes no difference to me, but I know it might make others happy, I'm more inclined to do it, only because I enjoy seeing other people smile.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Scott, there is a difference in not placing your hand over your heart and spitting on the flag or flicking it off, burning it... etc.

I would lose respect for Obama if he did those things, but not for clasping his hands and staring reverently at the flag... nothing wrong with that.

 

[Mesa]

Well dude, not putting your hand over your heart is NOT showing a lack of acknowledgment of the Flag. You can show reverence in other ways, you know. Not following tradition doesn't make you a flag burner.

I'm saying that it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm saying that not holding your hand over your heart does not make you unpatriotic or undeserving of leadership.

The real importance lies in your character, and your responsibility in leading the nation.

Exactly! I don't during the NA and I don't consider myself a flag burner.

Maybe you guys were raised differently, I don't know. But ever since I can remember back to the 1st/2nd grade, and all during my time in the scouts, I was taught to show respect for the flag by placing hand over heart during the pledge.

It's something I would teach my kids, if I ever have them.

In my own personal belief, it's unpatriotic NOT to.

You guys can talk about, "Well, you're still a patriot if you think in your head during the time that the pledge is spoken about how great America is and how much you love and appreciate it..." but there is no easier way to show allegiance to your country than putting your right hand over your heart during the pledge and meaning it. I suppose the National Anthem could slide, but removal of your hat and standing is certainly an option. Anything less is not respectful and IMO is not being patriotic.

And in my view, Obama showed a lack of patriotism and respect by not following this AMERICAN tradition.

 

[Bannister]

Scott, there is a difference in not placing your hand over your heart and spitting on the flag or flicking it off, burning it... etc.

I would lose respect for Obama if he did those things, but not for clasping his hands and staring reverently at the flag... nothing wrong with that.

I don't think Lucifer is qualified to decide what is and what is not respectful.

 

[RoboDad]

I don't think Lucifer is qualified to decide what is and what is not respectful.

Man, you are just evil!