Presidential Debate Tonight - Obama vs. McCain.... DING, DING, DING

[Mesa]

But, as I have stated over and over again... it is all based on your belief that a ritualistic gesture decides patriotism.

This whole argument is solely based on the belief that the gesture itself shows patriotism, which it doesn't.

This is just silly Josh.

Weren't you taught as a kid in school to put your hand over your heart during the Pledge of Allegiance? And the same in the military, except salute while in uniform. We're only like 5 or 6 years apart, I don't think the education system changed that much in that short amount of time; today may be another story.

It's not my belief, it's an accepted tradition that has been aorund for years.


Seriously, is it just me that feels this way? Where did you guys go to school? Weren't you taught proper flag etiquette to show respect, never let it touch the ground, only time acceptable to burn a flag is when you retire it. Didn't anyone ever participate in color guard or were a member of scouts?


I can't believe I'm alone here. Probably explains why Obama is leading the poles.

 

[CelticPredator]

I was taught. But sometimes...I dont want to stand up at 7 AM in the morning. Too tired. Besides, I have OTHER ways I could show my patriotism. Standing up for the pledge isnt the only way....

 

[Bannister]

I always put my hand over my heart during the pledge, but not during the National Anthem. My father was in the military and has been standing next to me when I have not put my hand over my heart during the National Anthem. He never even tried to kick my ass because of it. What a piss poor excuse of a role model he has been.

 

[devilof76]

Participating in the gesture does not make one a patriot. Osama bin Laden could put his hand over his heart and it would not make him a lover of this country.

But for someone who does love this country, it is a way of publically expressing that love. It is a demonstration of pride. If a person wants to keep it to themself, that is their prerogative. But there are certain situations in which I would question a person's sincerity if they chose to refrain.

 

[Mesa]

I was taught. But sometimes...I dont want to stand up at 7 AM in the morning. Too tired. Besides, I have OTHER ways I could show my patriotism. Standing up for the pledge isnt the only way....

This is the exact reason why we need a leader that leads by example. Today's youth are too tired at 7AM to show respect for their country. Tell you what... If we held the Pledge of Allegiance at 2:00 PM in the afternoon, would that be more convenient and fit your schedule a little better? Perhaps we can write a computer program to say it for you.

 

[CelticPredator]

Parfec answer.

 

[DarkArtist81]

This is just silly Josh.

Weren't you taught as a kid in school to put your hand over your heart during the Pledge of Allegiance? And the same in the military, except salute while in uniform. We're only like 5 or 6 years apart, I don't think the education system changed that much in that short amount of time; today may be another story.

It's not my belief, it's an accepted tradition that has been aorund for years.


Seriously, is it just me that feels this way? Where did you guys go to school? Weren't you taught proper flag etiquette to show respect, never let it touch the ground, only time acceptable to burn a flag is when you retire it. Didn't anyone ever participate in color guard or were a member of scouts?


I can't believe I'm alone here. Probably explains why Obama is leading the poles.

I don't see how that is silly. I was never in the scouts or color guard, but I was taught the traditions.

I just think that it's silly to heed to all traditions simply because our society does. Traditions are just rituals, as I said. Rituals throughout time have changed, due to change in belief.

I personally think that we can show reverence for the flag and our country without placing our hands over our hearts. I also believe that prayer is acceptable without placing your hands together in the traditional prayer symbol.

What happens if you are armless? or lacking the right arm or hand? Are you unpatriotic by default?

My main point is that rituals are just that... rituals. They mean nothing except for whatever rationale we humans give to them. What's so wrong with making your own rituals and belief structure? Nothing.

It's just those that follow the rituals inherently are offended when someone goes against the grain and doesn't heed to their rituals. Respect is an abstract idea, and cannot be shown by gesture alone. I could be a dissident, hand over my heart during the pledge, reciting hatred in my mind... am I patriotic?

Gesture alone means nothing without the thoughts to back it up.

 

[CelticPredator]

This is the exact reason why we need a leader that leads by example. Today's youth are too tired at 7AM to show respect for their country. Tell you what... If we held the Pledge of Allegiance at 2:00 PM in the afternoon, would that be more convenient and fit your schedule a little better? Perhaps we can write a computer program to say it for you.

If any leader could have me wake up later then ^^^^ing 6 AM then i'd vote for him. Rep or Dem!

 

[Bannister]

Perhaps we can write a computer program to say it for you.

I bet this guy has that program:

 

[Mesa]

Participating in the gesture does not make one a patriot. Osama bin Laden could put his hand over his heart and it would not make him a lover of this country.

But for someone who does love this country, it is a way of publically expressing that love. It is a demonstration of pride. If a person wants to keep it to themself, that is their prerogative. But there are certain situations in which I would question a person's sincerity if they chose to refrain.

This I agree whole heartedly with. I think I'm being taken at face value only.

If someone doesn't want to do it, so be it, that's their right and God given freedom.

But I don't think the person running for president is setting a good example and offending a lot of patriots by choosing not to show respect.

Although, I guess I'd rather he not do it than do it and not really mean it. At least I know where he stands, which isn't behind our flag or country.

 

[CelticPredator]

https://tts.imtranslator.net/1oOx

 

[Mesa]

I don't see how that is silly. I was never in the scouts or color guard, but I was taught the traditions.

I just think that it's silly to heed to all traditions simply because our society does. Traditions are just rituals, as I said. Rituals throughout time have changed, due to change in belief.

I personally think that we can show reverence for the flag and our country without placing our hands over our hearts. I also believe that prayer is acceptable without placing your hands together in the traditional prayer symbol.

What happens if you are armless? or lacking the right arm or hand? Are you unpatriotic by default?

My main point is that rituals are just that... rituals. They mean nothing except for whatever rationale we humans give to them. What's so wrong with making your own rituals and belief structure? Nothing.

It's just those that follow the rituals inherently are offended when someone goes against the grain and doesn't heed to their rituals. Respect is an abstract idea, and cannot be shown by gesture alone. I could be a dissident, hand over my heart during the pledge, reciting hatred in my mind... am I patriotic?

Gesture alone means nothing without the thoughts to back it up.

Well shoot, while we're at it, let's just get rid of the Olympics. And not celebrate Thanksgiving. Screw Christmas, just a bunch of commercial BS anyway... Jesus who? 4th of July, Veterean's Day, eff it, just stupid silly traditions that our country was founded on.

 

[CelticPredator]

Please...please....if someone doesnt put there hand up over their heart, during whatever, it doesnt mean jack. There are OTHER ways of supporting our country....like trying to make it better. No one is burning a flag, no one is saying ^^^^ AMERICA....some people just dont want to do the pledge....its not a sin, its not a crime...so please, allow people to do what they want.

 

[hoodonit00]

This is just silly Josh.

Weren't you taught as a kid in school to put your hand over your heart during the Pledge of Allegiance? And the same in the military, except salute while in uniform. We're only like 5 or 6 years apart, I don't think the education system changed that much in that short amount of time; today may be another story.

It's not my belief, it's an accepted tradition that has been aorund for years.


Seriously, is it just me that feels this way? Where did you guys go to school? Weren't you taught proper flag etiquette to show respect, never let it touch the ground, only time acceptable to burn a flag is when you retire it. Didn't anyone ever participate in color guard or were a member of scouts?


I can't believe I'm alone here. Probably explains why Obama is leading the poles.

You're not alone Mesa. I even posted a link to the flag code, where it states about removing hats and covering your heart. It's a sad day in this country when people start defending there reasons for not doing it. Whether or not civilians do it is I guess up to them, but any politician in this counrty should have the good sense to know that the majority of people expect them to do it.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Well shoot, while we're at it, let's just get rid of the Olympics. And not celebrate Thanksgiving. Screw Christmas, just a bunch of commercial BS anyway... Jesus who? 4th of July, Veterean's Day, eff it, just stupid silly traditions that our country was founded on.

He's not saying that ALL Americans should not do it... it's their choice to do so. Just like it is our choice to observe whatever holidays and RITUALS we choose.

The main thing here is the CHOICE to do so... I think that right should extend to those running for office.

 

[CelticPredator]

CHOICE for 08!

 

[DarkArtist81]

You're not alone Mesa. I even posted a link to the flag code, where it states about removing hats and covering your heart. It's a sad day in this country when people start defending there reasons for not doing it. Whether or not civilians do it is I guess up to them, but any politician in this counrty should have the good sense to know that the majority of people expect them to do it.

So I guess if you are a politician, then Freedom of Choice goes out the window, huh?

Good to know that we expect all our leaders to be cookie cutter representations.

 

[Mesa]

Please...please....if someone doesnt put there hand up over their heart, during whatever, it doesnt mean jack. There are OTHER ways of supporting our country....like trying to make it better. No one is burning a flag, no one is saying ^^^^ AMERICA....some people just dont want to do the pledge....its not a sin, its not a crime...so please, allow people to do what they want.

You can do whatever. I expect more from my President than I do from you. A lot more. For starters, acknowledging and respecting the symbol or our country, our flag.

But you're free to show your patriotism however you choose, and lack there of. It is a free country after all.

 

[devilof76]

But I don't think the person running for president is setting a good example and offending a lot of patriots by choosing not to show respect.

I agree. He is vying to be Commander-in-Chief, and he can't be bothered to move his arm? I personally don't like shaking hands, but if I approach a stranger with whom I intend to begin a business relationship with, knowing full well that he expects a handshake, why would I refuse? I can see it now. "You want my business, but you can't shake my hand?"

By the same token, "You have the power to send me to war, but you can't put your hand over your heart during the Anthem? You can't salute the Flag?"

I can even understand his desire to make a statement to the effect that the gesture is meaningless without underlying substance. I happen to agree with him--and was disgusted--by the number of people who expected me to give them the status of patriot just because they had a flag pin or a sticker on their car, when more often than not, it is second nature for them to malign this country with every other breath.

But there's a time and a place for making that kind of demonstration. During a Presidential candidacy is not it.

 

[hoodonit00]

So I guess if you are a politician, then Freedom of Choice goes out the window, huh?

Good to know that we expect all our leaders to be cookie cutter representations.

I posted what I meant. I've read enough of your post to get a pretty good feel of who you are. Your kind of anti-establishment so I don't expect you to understand. Couple weeks ago Rage Against The Machine desecrated a flag, what do you think about this? First Ammendment Right?

ETA above post is not meant to be a disparagement, it's more of a statement about the younger generation in this country growing up in a different way then some of us older guys did.