Presidential Debate Tonight - Obama vs. McCain.... DING, DING, DING

[Mesa]

When to salute the United States flag


All citizens salute when the Plegde of Allegiance is spoken.
All citizens salute when the National Anthem is played and should stand at attention and salute the US flag until the anthem is finished.
Citizens may choose to salute during parades or reviews.
Military personnel in uniform must salute during the National Anthem, the Pledge of Allegiance, parades and reviews.
Proper slaute procedure for civilians

All civilians place the right hand over the heart.
Men must remove hats, caps, or other headwear.
Women may continue to wear headwear, although it is appropriate to remove all caps.
Military personnel in uniform - use a formal salute

Salute as the American flag is raised or lowered.
Hold the formal salute until the flag is unsnapped from the halyard (or until the end of the National Anthem, whichever is longest).

https://www.libertyflags.com/page.cfm?PageID=44

I toook this for common knowledge, but apparently I was sadly mistaken and it is now left open for interpretation. Silly me.

 

[CelticPredator]

You guys scare me. That is all.

 

[hoodonit00]

This is why republicans scare me. Look, I tried to myself as unbaised as I can...but this crap is loony. For the most part I do the damn pledge. But still. Its not something I want to do at 7AM in the morning. Heck, I dont want to ANYTHING. I want to sleep.

You can call me whatever you want to, but I know where I stand.

ANd this is why the younger generation disapoints me. Like it's really asking to much to stand there for a minute to recite the pledge with true pride in your country.

 

[DarkArtist81]

I posted what I meant. I've read enough of your post to get a pretty good feel of who you are. Your kind of anti-establishment so I don't expect you to understand. Couple weeks ago Rage Against The Machine desecrated a flag, what do you think about this? First Ammendment Right?

ETA above post is not meant to be a disparagement, it's more of a statement about the younger generation in this country growing up in a different way then some of us older guys did.

I fought for and stand for the rights of Americans to say and do whatever they desire under the letter of the law. I'm not an anarchist or someone who desires Communist or Populist government. I just believe in the Bill of Rights and equality in our land.

Rage has the right under free speech to do with the flag what they will, it's their right to do so.

And Mesa... again... RITUALS.

At one point a lot of what we do freely now in the USA was once considered sinful and scandalous. At one point it was lawful to burn someone alive for suspicion of witchcraft... with no evidence that wasn't purely speculative and ritualistic...

 

[Spartan Rex]

I agree. He is vying to be Commander-in-Chief, and he can't be bothered to move his arm? I personally don't like shaking hands, but if I approach a stranger with whom I intend to begin a business relationship with, knowing full well that he expects a handshake, why would I refuse? I can see it now. "You want my business, but you can't shake my hand?"

By the same token, "You have the power to send me to war, but you can't put your hand over your heart during the Anthem? You can't salute the Flag?"

I can even understand his desire to make a statement to the effect that the gesture is meaningless without underlying substance. I happen to agree with him--and was disgusted--by the number of people who expected me to give them the status of patriot just because they had a flag pin or a sticker on their car, when more often than not, it is second nature for them to malign this country with every other breath.

But there's a time and a place for making that kind of demonstration. During a Presidential candidacy is not it.

Bingo!
The Presidency as well being the Cmdr in Chief of our combined armed forces is one of symbolism,tradition, honor and duty in part. Whomever ends up being elected should do his or her best to maintain and carry on those traditions and put aside any little self indulgent points theyre trying to make.

I dont doubt John McCain would given his past sacrifices.
Obama on the other hand.....

 

[CelticPredator]

ANd this is why the younger generation disapoints me. Like it's really asking to much to stand there for a minute to recite the pledge with true pride in your country.

Glad to dissapoint.

I have other ways of showing my pride. OOOH NO! I DIDNT DO THE PLEDGE ON DAY! OH JESUS! DONT SMITE THEEEE!!!11111

 

[Mesa]

I fought for and stand for the rights of Americans to say and do whatever they desire under the letter of the law. I'm not an anarchist or someone who desires Communist or Populist government. I just believe in the Bill of Rights and equality in our land.

Rage has the right under free speech to do with the flag what they will, it's their right to do so.

And Mesa... again... RITUALS.

At one point a lot of what we do freely now in the USA was once considered sinful and scandalous. At one point it was lawful to burn someone alive for suspicion of witchcraft... with no evidence that wasn't purely speculative and ritualistic...

Well shoot, while we're at it, let's just get rid of the Olympics. And not celebrate Thanksgiving. Screw Christmas, just a bunch of commercial BS anyway... Jesus who? 4th of July, Veterean's Day, eff it, just stupid silly traditions that our country was founded on.

Dude, your RITUAL stance isn't holding up too well. It is a tradition. A time honored one. That helps instill and engrain patriotism into our youth, and I completely and whole heartedly suppport this sort of conditioning. Same as why teaching a youth religion is a good thing, whether or not said youth decides to carry it on to adulthood, it still instills good values. I believe in America and what we stand for and I see no harm in teaching the young how to express that and admire those that carry it into their adulthood.

When I see a "role model" lacking that demonstration, it tells me they don't believe in the values I do, and I don't support them and question their patriotism. That's just how it is. Putting your hand over your heart is the easiest way to show you love this country (if you mean it of course), and failing to do so shows me that you don't care enough to show your respect for this country by failing to perform the most simplest of gestures.

And to compare the ritual of placing hand over heart to burning "witches" at the stake in Salem... well, I'll just leave that at that.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Bingo!
The Presidency as well being the Cmdr in Chief of our combined armed forces is one of symbolism,tradition, honor and duty in part. Whomever ends up being elected should do his or her best to maintain and carry on those traditions and put aside any little self indulgent points theyre trying to make.

I dont doubt John McCain would given his past sacrifices.
Obama on the other hand.....

I don't agree, and some don't. To take high office does not mean that you have to uphold every single last American ritual to heart. I agree about honor and duty, but tradition is something more personal.

That's like saying that if we had a Jewish President, he better not wear his Yamica or not celebrate Christmas.

 

[CelticPredator]

By the way, im just trying to get a rise out you people. I do the pledge everyday. So...

Also, I have this experiment. Im going to have a friend of mine where an Anti Obama shirt to school, and im going to wear an Anti McCain shirt. Its just to see the reactions of different people. I know exacly how its going to go down. Obama's will be laughed, and praised, and the McCain one will probably get me death threats or beat up.

Sick world we live in. Sick world.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Dude, your RITUAL stance isn't holding up too well. It is a tradition. A time honored one. That helps instill and engrain patriotism into our youth, and I completely and whole heartedly suppport this sort of conditioning. Same as why teaching a youth religion is a good thing, whether or not said youth decides to carry it on to adulthood, it still instills good values. I believe in America and what we stand for and I see no harm in teaching the young how to express that and admire those that carry it into their adulthood.

When I see a "role model" lacking that demonstration, it tells me they don't believe in the values I do, and I don't support them and question their patriotism. That's just how it is. Putting your hand over your heart is the easiest way to show you love this country (if you mean it of course), and failing to do so shows me that you don't care enough to show your respect for this country in the most simplest of gestures.

And to compare the ritual of placing hand over heart to burning "witches" at the stake in Salem... well, I'll just leave that at that.

I was just illustrating the point that rituals change, and that they span the full range of human emotion... from suspicion and hate to values like honor and respect.

Traditions are rituals carried out over generations, plain and simple. No way to dispute that fact.

His not adhering to this tradition will not crumble the youth of America, nor will it harm anything in the long run. Hell, having a faith filled, Flag pin wearing President right now doesn't seem to fill our youth with good values. He comes off as uneducated and simple, which I'm sure gives them great pride in their President.

I'd rather have someone who is inspiring and is willing to do whatever he can to make this country better than it is than someone who follows all the rituals to a T, but is a simpleton who makes bad decisions and makes our entire country look bad.

But I guess I'm crazy.

 

[Mesa]

One more thing...

 

[DarkArtist81]

Well, I guess we see who is the first to abandon educational response and delve into silly photos and jokes....

I guess it's just like my Uncle said... "I must be hanging out with too many academics."

 

[devilof76]

It is a symbol, but the purpose of a symbol is to represent something. The flag represents this country and the gesture represents respect.

Someone burning the flag is making an explicit gesture of extreme disrespect. It's an act of destruction, and it expresses a desire to destroy what the symbol represents (I'd expect nothing less from a Commie ^^^^ like Delarocha). I have no respect for him, but I do believe he has the right to make the gesture.

If a Presidential candidate were to make the same gesture, I would take it as point blank affirmation that he has no right being President. Refusing to salute is not of the same order, but there are similarities. Again, he was allegedly making a point, and even though it was in bad taste, it's his prerogative. If he continued with the behavior after being elected, I'd say he had a problem. I would take it to mean that he lacks an understanding of what that piece of cloth has gone through to be flying over his home, and in that regard, has no right to be occupying the house.

I agree with Josh in the sense that no citizen is obligated to express their allegiance, but I do not believe that the President is an ordinary citizen. I don't even think he qualifies as a civilian. The American Presidency is not a pulpit for an activist in a global community. It is the highest office of the United States, and he needs to take full cognizance of what his position represents.

 

[Mesa]

Well, I guess we see who is the first to abandon educational response and delve into silly photos and jokes....

I guess it's just like my Uncle said... "I must be hanging out with too many academics."

Later bro. Peace, no offense I hope. I'll be glad when this election is over too. I need to get back to the Marvel thread, but so slow in there lately. And stop being such a trouble maker.

 

[hoodonit00]

His not adhering to this tradition will not crumble the youth of America, nor will it harm anything in the long run. Hell, having a faith filled, Flag pin wearing President right now doesn't seem to fill our youth with good values. He comes off as uneducated and simple, which I'm sure gives them great pride in their President.

But see this is where you are wrong. The youth of today are much different then the youth of my time. We didn't think anything of having prayer in school in my time, it's frowned upon if not totally banned now. The way kids dress especially girls was totally different then. Kids in my time had most of their bodies covered up, now, boys are made to look like thugs and girls dress like whores. I have 4 girls, believe me the clothes they have in stores now, marketed towards kids are awful. The respect kids have today is almost non-existant. Adults were addressed as Mr. Or Mrs. today, if a kid knows your first name, that's what they call you. How does this pertain to the flag? All these were common knowledge when I was a kid. Through the years, through a so called "progressive" movement things have been changing, and I don't think for the better.

 

[RoboDad]

Well, I guess we see who is the first to abandon educational response and delve into silly photos and jokes....

Wait just a doggone minute! I was the one who was first to delve into silly photos and jokes in this thread! (Or was it Bannister? I've forgotten...)

 

[Entropy]

I put my hand over my hat and remove my heart during the NA and I'm currently wearing not one but two American flag pins so obviously I love my country more.

And I noticed that McCain didn't wear a pin during the debate, looks like he's shown his true colors and hates America. Why won't you wear the pin John? WHY? Sheesh, gimme a break.

 

[RoboDad]

Also, I have this experiment. Im going to have a friend of mine where an Anti Obama shirt to school, and im going to wear an Anti McCain shirt. Its just to see the reactions of different people. I know exacly how its going to go down. Obama's will be laughed, and praised, and the McCain one will probably get me death threats or beat up.

I'm actually very interested to hear how your experiment turns out. My hunch is that it will be different than what you are expecting, but it will be interesting, nonetheless. Please follow up with us.

 

[hoodonit00]

Speaking of First Ammendment Rights. About 2 weeks ago a kid wore an anti-Obama t-shirt to school and got suspended for it. I'm sure my fellow freaks will join me in e-mailing the school to voice our outrage at his suspension, and loss of his First Ammendment Rights.

 

[DarkArtist81]

But see this is where you are wrong. The youth of today are much different then the youth of my time. We didn't think anything of having prayer in school in my time, it's frowned upon if not totally banned now. The way kids dress especially girls was totally different then. Kids in my time had most of their bodies covered up, now, boys are made to look like thugs and girls dress like whores. I have 4 girls, believe me the clothes they have in stores now, marketed towards kids are awful. The respect kids have today is almost non-existant. Adults were addressed as Mr. Or Mrs. today, if a kid knows your first name, that's what they call you. How does this pertain to the flag? All these were common knowledge when I was a kid. Through the years, through a so called "progressive" movement things have been changing, and I don't think for the better.

One more thing before I go to sleep...

The terrible changes you see happening are no different than the changes that have bothered any generation as it ages and sees the new generation toss aside the traditions and values of old.

In the 20's, the youth was thought to be too wild and crazy. In the 50's you had rebellious kids that were looked at as heathens. And repeated in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and beyond. It's the way things have been since settlement of our great land. The older generations always look at the next generation with fear and thoughts that they have lost all of their values.

I don't see it that way. Older people talked about my generation that way, but I think my values are sound. I am at heart a good person, never been arrested, never had a ticket, never done anything remotely horrible. It's all perspective.

And don't worry Mesa, I'm not mad at you bro. Difference of opinions, no big deal.