PT Changing How You View The OT

[Wor-Gar]

True, the Jedi were very inactive until the end of AOTC. That's one of the things I didn't like about the 1st half of the PT. I had always imagined the Jedi wandering the galaxy, doing good, saving the enslaved... more like Samauri as they were orignally envisioned.

In TPM and AOTC they seemed very removed from the world, almost isolationists, almost mystic snobs. I would have preferred if from the beginning they were more like what they became after the Battle of Geonosis. Qui-Gon seemd that way, yet the Council disapproved of him. Why? Because he went out and acted?

Also, I always wondered why they sent Qui-Gon to Naboo anyway. There's no shortage of Jedi to send, and Jinn seems so on the 'outs' with the Council.

At the end of the day, the more I think about it, the whole "Jedi Council" idea was not thought out very well...at least in how it was presented in the films.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Something else that runs through my mind when watching ANH nowadays is, what is Vader thinking as the Blockade Runner/Star Destroyer approach Tatooine?

One nice tie-up Lucas did manage to work into the story was that Tatooine was the only planet in the OT that Vader didn't set foot on. Even on Dagobah he appeared as a vision. It's a little thing, but it's something.

 

[pixletwin]

You're half right...

Qui-Gon would never have fought in the Clone Wars. His belief in the force was kinda zen and I almost see him as a neutral character - nether good nor evil but seeking to be lead wherever the force led him.

Whereas the Jedi's were very gung-ho and (dare I say) self righteous with how they wielded the force, and that was their downfall. They were easily duped by the emperor. This is why in the OT Obi-Wan and Yoda are a bit more philosophical about the force, rather than purveyors of strict dogma, when it came to applying the will of the force.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Atom Hues]

To be fair, Obi-Wan never even left the ship, and Qui-Gon seemed to have his mind on other matters at the time. He may have heard of it, but he never saw it and might not have known much if Anakin didn't wanna talk about it. For Padme though, there's no excuse--she should have done something as soon as she became Senator. And Anaking was just dumb.

I had an argument with a LOTR fan after THE TWO TOWERS came out. They said that Sam could never have said his whole speech to Faramir about how Boromir died because he tried to take the Ring, that the Ring drove Boromir mad. Their argument was, Sam wasn't there when it happened, so it was therefore impossible for Sam to know these events.

My response was something along the lines of: "It's wildly unrealistic to assume that Frodo would not tell Sam, Mr. Frodo's must trusted friend & ally, everything that had transpired. In fact, it would be out of character for both of them."

I feel the same way. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are Jedi Knights; they are dedicated ideallists and champions of the opressed. I also find it wildly out of character for Qui-Gon to be MORE worried about the opressed people on Naboo, meanwhile showing so little regard for the opressed people on Tatooine. I can't see him NOT telling Obi-Wan. Also, in the intervening years between, Eps 1 & II, Anakin dreams of his mother, and talks of his dreams with his master, Obi-Wan Kenobi. So, Obi-Wan can't get off on a technical..."Sorry, I wasn't there, I didn't actually SEE any slaves...."

I'm not trying to be argumentative.

All I'm saying is, that we as fans do our fair share of rationalizing to explain story & character oddities, things that the film itself doesn't properly address. It's not a perfect science, as some rationalizations are so wildly hypothetical that they defy story & character plausibility. In that instance, the answer lies OUTSIDE the story, with the story's creators.

Hypothetical Example:

Luke Skywalker hates the color red (I made that up as an example). No explanation is given.

1). OK! Red is the color of the lightsabers of the Sith.... seeing the color red engenders emotions in Luke that remind him of everything from the pull of the Dark Side to the moment he saw Ben Kenobi cut down by a red lightsaber. And! AND! THAT, therefore, is why Red Squadron became ROGUE squadron after the Battle of Yavin! Ah-HA!

OR:

2) George Lucas' favorite color is green.



Looks like I rambled again. Sorry.

-AH!

 

[Atom Hues]

...what is Vader thinking as the Blockade Runner/Star Destroyer approach Tatooine?

***koo-pah*** Sand. ***koo-pah*** I hate it. *koo-pah*** It gets everywhere. ***koo-pah***

 

[Prime Clone]

Heh ... nice one Adam!

 

[DarkArtist81]

The thing is, I don't think it's an intentional thing, a well-crafted story element. I think the whole slavery thing was written for Ep 1, then quickly forgotten.

It's one thing for the Jedi Knights to have become a bloated political entity that might ignore the plight of a few slaves in the Outer Rim, but who are the heroes/protagonists of the PT? Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme. How are we supposed to get involved with these characters & care about their fates if they are the type of people who would intentionally ignore the plight of slaves?

I think it was just a matter of some dramatic debt that was incurred in Ep 1, and Lucas & Co. didn't deem it necessary to address it in later episodes. That's an easier explanation for me to swallow than:
1. The wise & kind Obi-Wan Kenobi decides to ignore people in need
2. The noble & politically active Padme to ignore slavery, especially when her own people suffered a military occupation and she was willing to die to fight that
3. Anakin, whose entire PT character arc is based upon the fact that he loves his loved ones too much, is willing to ignore his mother's slavery for a decade.

The STAR WARS universe isn't dramatically water-tight. Even within the OT, there are plot holes and character aberrations that stem from 11th hour story changes and plot overhauls. As fans, our first course is to come up with rationalizations to caulk up the plot holes.

My point was, the main characters of the PT (not the Jedi council, but the heroes) ignoring slavery is something that even I, a STAR WARS loyalista, have a hard time concocting a good excuse for.

That's all!

-Adam

You really do have a very strong point there. I remember getting hyped for Episode II and I really thought that it would revolve around Anakin trying to get slavery abolished to save his mother... and was quite shocked to find that they didn't touch on it at all. Now you've awakened it and I am realizing it all over again. Pretty weak of the writing to let such an important story bit just be misted over like that.

 

[DarkArtist81]

Hypothetical Example:

Luke Skywalker hates the color red (I made that up as an example). No explanation is given.

1). OK! Red is the color of the lightsabers of the Sith.... seeing the color red engenders emotions in Luke that remind him of everything from the pull of the Dark Side to the moment he saw Ben Kenobi cut down by a red lightsaber. And! AND! THAT, therefore, is why Red Squadron became ROGUE squadron after the Battle of Yavin! Ah-HA!

OR:

2) George Lucas' favorite color is green.



Looks like I rambled again. Sorry.

-AH!

HILARIOUS!! Luke and his Red-phobia...

 

[Captain Faramir]

I'm cool with that example, except that Qui-Gon didn't have the time to talk with Obi-Wan about it, and as they weren't in the best of moods with each other on Coruscant, I don't know if they would have had time to discuss it. Qui-Gon was dead only days after picking up Anakin. However, Anakin may have talked about it with Obi-Wan, in which case it does become an issue.

Padme still has no excuse.

 

[Atom Hues]

...what is Vader thinking as the Blockade Runner/Star Destroyer approach Tatooine?

It's actually a fabulously trenchant question, all kidding aside.

I think we meant to infer that Darth Vader is NOT Anakin Skywalker... meaning, Darth Vader does not sit around missing Pod Racing and Googling "Padme" for saucy candids of her at exclusive Theed and Coruscant hot-spots. I think the reasoning is, Darth Vader thinks of Anakin Skywalker in the third person, a Jedi Knight who was weak and flawed, and suffered because of his passions and loves. Also, Anakin Skywalker is responsible for Vader's crummy living conditions (the walking leather iron lung), and therefore has nothing but contempt for the 'dead' Jedi.

At least, that's the way it seems up here in the cheap seats.

 

[Prime Clone]

I reckon Obi-Wan hid Luke on Tatooine because it was the one place in the galaxy Vader would never want to return to - it would make him confront his former self.

 

[Atom Hues]

I'm cool with that example, except that Qui-Gon didn't have the time to talk with Obi-Wan about it, and as they weren't in the best of moods with each other on Coruscant, I don't know if they would have had time to discuss it. Qui-Gon was dead only days after picking up Anakin. However, Anakin may have talked about it with Obi-Wan, in which case it does become an issue.

Padme still has no excuse.

Well, I'm think they DID have time. Tatooine is in the Outer Rim far from Coruscant... do we know how many days they spent travelling from one place to the other? How many days did they spend on Coruscant, while the Senate debated Naboo's plight? How many days did it take to get from Coruscant to Naboo? How many days did it take to get all the Naboo Resistance to gather outside Theed? How long did it take to find the Gungans, and THEN formulate a battle-plan for the counter-offensive?

If we're in the realm of conjecture, I think Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had AMPLE time from the departure of Tatooine to the departure of, well, Qui-Gon to take 25 minutes and talk about the fact that the towhead they just adopted came from slave stock...

NOT being argumentative! Just hypothesizing!

-AH!

P.S. Padme's excuse will always, always be "Because she looks just like Natalie Portman!"

 

[Wor-Gar]

It's actually a fabulously trenchant question, all kidding aside.

I think we meant to infer that Darth Vader is NOT Anakin Skywalker... meaning, Darth Vader does not sit around missing Pod Racing and Googling "Padme" for saucy candids of her at exclusive Theed and Coruscant hot-spots. I think the reasoning is, Darth Vader thinks of Anakin Skywalker in the third person, a Jedi Knight who was weak and flawed, and suffered because of his passions and loves. Also, Anakin Skywalker is responsible for Vader's crummy living conditions (the walking leather iron lung), and therefore has nothing but contempt for the 'dead' Jedi.

At least, that's the way it seems up here in the cheap seats.

I'd like to think of it that way. In fact, when Vader took his first step in the suit, he should have said.. "I am reborn" or "I feel better"... or something to make that point clear.

Unfortunately, he says "Where is Padme? Is she alright?" So Anakin's still in there. At least at first... of course, all the way down the road in 'Jedi' he gets melancholy again and says sadly "It's too late for me son". And Luke's pursuit of the "good in him" is really the whole point of the Jedi arc. He's still in there. Somewhere. Bitter about his past, forgetful, remorseful, whatever.

There must be a moment somewhere deep inside him when he sees Tatooine from aboard the Devastator and simply thinks "My mom died there". Maybe that's why he's so angry aboard the blockade runner, yelling at his troopers and choking a guy physically with a nice crunch. He does seem more angry and biyachy in that scene than anywhere else in the series.

There I go again, covering George's asss.

 

[DarkArtist81]

I'd like to think of it that way. In fact, when Vader took his first step in the suit, he should have said.. "I am reborn" or "I feel better"... or something to make that point clear.

Unfortunately, he says "Where is Padme? Is she alright?" So Anakin's still in there. At least at first... of course, all the way down the road in 'Jedi' he gets melancholy again and says sadly "It's too late for me son". And Luke's pursuit of the "good in him" is really the whole point of the Jedi arc. He's still in there. Somewhere. Bitter about his past, forgetful, remorseful, whatever. There must be a moment somewhere deep inside him when he sees Tatooine from aboard the Devastator and simply thinks "My mom died there". Maybe that's why he's so angry aboard the blockade runner, yelling at his troopers and choking a guy physically with a nice crunch. He does seem more angry and biyachy in that scene than anywhere else in the series.

That's my thought process as well. I think he pushes all thoughts of Anakin out of his mind, focusing on the pain of his existence... Unless he is confronted with it, at which time I think he is conflicted emotionally and bottles it within himself... bury it under the rage. That's why Luke senses a confilict within, the good man somewhere in there... drowning underneath all of the misery and anger.

But I think that at that precise moment, if he did look down on the planet and have those thoughts... It would only fuel his fire to storm that ship and punish the rebels. Which would sort of make sense seeing as though he was pretty brutal in those opening scenes, vocally and physically.

 

[Prime Clone]

I have to admit I thought Qui-Gon was being insensitive when he said, "I didn't come here to free slaves." Maybe the Jedi have a "prime directive" not to interfere in civil affairs.

At the time I put it down to him wanting to stay focused on his primary objective, to get the Queen safely to Coruscant ASAP.

 

[Atom Hues]

I reckon Obi-Wan hid Luke on Tatooine because it was the one place in the galaxy Vader would never want to return to - it would make him confront his former self.

I think that's EXACTLY the conclusion we're meant to arrive at; well-spotted, Prime.

But here's a bit of the retro-math that doesn't add up for me, meaning - the PT had to end so that it jibed with how ANH started. Luke is on the Lars farm.... Old Ben is a hermit in the wilderness.... Yoda remains unmentioned for a whole 'nother film.

Easy enough.

But if you were writing this big 6-film saga IN ORDER, I think you'd find problems with Yoda & Obi-Wan's Ep 3 scheme for the babies....

Why dump Luke off with his Muggle relatives? If Luke is the Great White Hope for the Galaxy, and Jedi start their training at 6 months, why sin't Obi-Wan raising Luke as a Jedi in the wilderness? Considering the fact that Anakin's big downfall stems from his latent talents with the Force can't be controlled by his very late-in-life training, why let Luke wait until he's TWICE AS OLD as Anakin was before starting his training?

The answer is..... when STAR WARS was written, none of the PT stuff was more than a handwritten outline. It was all vague. And the adventure of STAR WARS was about a boy who discovered he had a special past, a unique father, and a destiny. But not a destiny carved in stone, as Old Ben is kinda willing to let Luke take him to Anchorhead so that Ben can go return the droids on his own, or Yoda in ESB is actually arguing with Luke & Ben AGAINST Luke's training.

All very suspect treatment for the kid who's supposed to save the galaxy...

We won't go into how Leia isn't even regarded as Jedi material, she's just eBay'd to Jimmy Smits and good riddance to her! Harumph!

Here's another zinger.... if hiding Luke on Tatooine is, as Ep 3 says, a master plan by the last 2 Jedi, isn't it a tad DANGEROUS to assume that the Emperor wouldn't at least spy on Anakin's relatives on Tattooine. Isn't it a tad MORE DANGEROUS to hide Luke with his only living relatives.

Wait, the icing on the "Obi-Wan & Yoda Are Into Mentoring... To The EXTREEEEME!!!" cake... we'll let Luke keep his father's name. Skywalker's probably a pretty common name.

From a linear story perspective, it's a FABULOUSLY crummy plan, Ewan McGregor & Frank Oz' voice! Crummy! Don't do it! Take the two Great White Hope twins to Dagobah or Tatooine and train the living $#!t outta them!!! ;-)

BUT! (and this is what I'm getting at with my posts about having to throw in outside-the-story-factors into our fan computations), if you think about the fact that when STAR WARS (1977) was written.... Vader was not yet written to be Luke's father, and Luke & Leia weren't yet re-imagined as siblings.

A lot of times the new writing fits slightly awkwardly with the original story.

 

[Atom Hues]

I'd like to think of it that way. In fact, when Vader took his first step in the suit, he should have said.. "I am reborn" or "I feel better"... or something to make that point clear.

Unfortunately, he says "Where is Padme? Is she alright?" So Anakin's still in there. At least at first... of course, all the way down the road in 'Jedi' he gets melancholy again and says sadly "It's too late for me son". And Luke's pursuit of the "good in him" is really the whole point of the Jedi arc. He's still in there. Somewhere. Bitter about his past, forgetful, remorseful, whatever.

There must be a moment somewhere deep inside him when he sees Tatooine from aboard the Devastator and simply thinks "My mom died there". Maybe that's why he's so angry aboard the blockade runner, yelling at his troopers and choking a guy physically with a nice crunch. He does seem more angry and biyachy in that scene than anywhere else in the series.

That's some good thinkin' there, man. I like the cut of your jib, mister.

 

[pixletwin]

...Why dump Luke off with his Muggle relatives? If Luke is the Great White Hope for the Galaxy, and Jedi start their training at 6 months, why sin't Obi-Wan raising Luke as a Jedi in the wilderness? Considering the fact that Anakin's big downfall stems from his latent talents with the Force can't be controlled by his very late-in-life training, why let Luke wait until he's TWICE AS OLD as Anakin was before starting his training?

My answer is that of an apologist:

a) It was the will of the force to leave Luke with the Lars.

and

b) Luke needed to be raised in simplicity without the hang-ups which being the hope of the galaxy would have brought. It gave him the sense of humility which ultimately he needed in the Emperor's throne room when he needed to make THE decision of his life... Do I kill Vader and the emperor and save my friends or do I really accept the Jedi code and refuse to kill an unarmed person regardless of the consequences.

 

[Atom Hues]

I have to admit I thought Qui-Gon was being insensitive when he said, "I didn't come here to free slaves." Maybe the Jedi have a "prime directive" not to interfere in civil affairs.

At the time I put it down to him wanting to stay focused on his primary objective, to get the Queen safely to Coruscant ASAP.

The thing is, the Jedi are intefering like CRAZY in the civil affairs of Naboo.

I hope it's not a jurisdictional thing, as in, Tatooine isn't part of the Republic. It shouldn't matter to Qui-Gon, who is a maverick who disobeys the Jedi Council 6 times before breakfast every day.

The bottom line is, the whole slavery thing is basically a storytelling excuse for the PodRace. The problem is, the whole slavery thing incurs some SERIOUS 'narrative debt'. What do our heroic Jedi Knights do, faced with slavery?!? Uh.... 'I didn't come here to free slaves'. But you WILL go back to Naboo to free slaves, Mister Jedi Smarty-Pants.

 

[Atom Hues]

My answer is that of an apologist:

a) It was the will of the force to leave Luke with the Lars.

and

b) Luke needed to be raised in simplicity without the hang-ups which being the hope of the galaxy would have brought. It gave him the sense of humility which ultimately he needed in the Emperor's throne room when he needed to make THE decision of his life... Do I kill Vader and the emperor and save my friends or do I really accept the Jedi code and refuse to kill an unarmed person regardless of the consequences.

NOT to be argumentative.... but a) is kind of a sloppy answer, if it's the truth.

"Why are their plot holes in your story, sir?"

"Uh, magic."

One can write off ANYTHING by saying it's the 'will of the Force', that's a cheap way out.

As for b), I have to disagree with the assessment of Luke's 'decision of his life'. Luke didn't stop because Vader was suddenly an unarmed person (BTW.... FABULOUS pun, intentional or not), Luke stopped because he was enraged at the thought of Vader using Leia, and Luke's rage took him right up to the edge of the Dark Side. It helped him beat Vader. Luke is FURIOUS when he fights Vader back to the reactor shaft.

And the Moment of Truth is when he looks at Vader's stump and then his own mechanical hand. It's not about the Jedi Code or killing an unarmed opponent (Mace Windu, paragon of Jedi virtue, was fully prepeared to kill Palpatine, and Palpy was unarmed).... Luke uses anger, fear, aggression, the Dark Side to defeat Vader and JUST when he's ready to kill Vader, in anger, he looks at how he's becoming JUST like Vader. The mechanical limbs are a metaphor.

I'm not trying to be uncool, or argumentative.... just trying to discuss. I totally respect your right to your own opinion, sir.