Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (12/16/16) *SPOILERS*

[Khev]

But I want to know when Baze and Chirrut fell in love.

They didn't. When Gareth Edwards heard of that idiotic "shipping" he laughed it off and gave a stock "I think that's great if different people want to read different things into their past." Clearly his diplomatic way of saying "um yeah, never for a second did I intend for them to be gay but I guess I'll be PC about it if you want to pretend they are." If some future book or comic says they are it's just BS.

 

[jye4ever]

Gareth is just refusing to come out himself.

 

[pixletwin]

We watched more of ANH again last night (trying to squeeze it in among Christmas movies and other holiday errands) and I'm amazed at how well ANH "plays" after RO.

The first time you see Tarkin he's storming into the Imperial meeting claiming that the Emperor disbanded the Senate. Almost as if after the Battle of Scarif the Emperor said "**** it, the charade of diplomacy is OVER. No more of this 'sympathy for the Rebellion' bull****. I let them think they had a say in running the galaxy and that led to an entire fleet coming out of hyperspace and stealing my precious plans. We've got the DS, no more pretenses."

Then when the one guy gives his "this station is now the ultimate power in the universe" line and Tarkin furrows his brow it comes across (if you take RO into account) like he's offended that someone else might be verbally taking ownership of the station. Not a good idea to do within earshot of Tarkin.

I thought the Vader/Kenobi duel would be jarring and awkward after RO but it plays better than ever. Now it seems like Vader is literally toying with Kenobi and that when he says "now I am the master" you REALLY believe it. The one Stormtrooper in the hangar is all "son you are in for a show tonight" and ushers the other troopers to go watch Vader make some old dude his *****. Kenobi knows he can't match Vader but that isn't his intention, he still accomplishes his goal and dies with dignity.

So Vader's lightsaber skills from RO really seque nicely to both ANH and ESB IMO. Only RO shows the full extent of what he's capable of. He leads off both duels against Kenobi and Luke by taking it easy on them and fighting down to their level so he can get a few words in. It really works.

Also Han just comes across as an even bigger badass for being a scoundrel in this harsh new galaxy. And if you have the Harmy editions where he does indeed blow Greedo away in one shot he just seems like another guy who knows to to hang in an unforgiving world of sinister agents of the Empire, bounty hunters, and ruthless rebels. Of course a smuggler is going to shoot first in a galaxy where even the good guys might plug you in the back if you look at them cross-eyed.

I did the same thing last night (Harmy).

I agree 100%. ANH is as totally new movie now. Character motivations have more depth now. It's actually a better movie for me now as result of RO.

 

[jye4ever]

Man that is a great post by Khev.

Wife and I teared up during their death....this was my son

 

[Khev]

Rogue One is possibly the best thing that could have happened to Darth Vader. It reconciles issues I had with the character that literally go back to ROTJ.

Even in ANH and ESB his badassery basically existed in a vacuum from a character motivation standpoint. We knew he was a high ranking agent in the Empire and that he was seduced by the Dark Side. But outside of seeking the plans and hunting Luke we really didn't get any hint as to what made him tick. ESB teased that he ultimately wanted to overthrow the Emperor and rule with Luke but we didn't know WHY and ROTJ never followed through.

But in my mind (and it's only my interpretation so don't freak out if "your" Vader is different than mine) RO presents him as almost a vampire, a literal creature of the night who just wants to be left alone. He doesn't want to rule the galaxy and doesn't even care who "wins." Imperials and rebels are just gnats to him. With regard to allegiance he has to side with the Empire of course because he can't have do-gooders in power and possibly hunting him down (again, making him more Vlad the Impaler than Satan.) The Emperor is the devil, HE wants power and "worship" and all that. Not Vader.

But he's so powerful that the Emperor uses him as the strong arm of the Empire. But Vader doesn't like that. In fact it really quite pisses him off. And he gets REALLY pissed if the gnats on his "team" are out building superweapons that then escalate the resistance causing Imperial facilities to be attacked and him to be sucked into squabbles over "who gets the credit." Because most of the Imperial officers fancy themselves as mini-Emperors and are all promoting themselves and working up the chain to get more prestige and power.

Vader is above all that. He only craves the "power" of the Dark Side because it allows him to zone out in his bacta coffin without interruption. The only times we ever see Vader doing what he wants to do apart from a specific mission he's completely closed off from the hustle and bustle of the galaxy (lava castle and Executor meditation chamber.) Which is why whenever he's on assignment he's in a big damn hurry, has NO tolerance for anyone on his team who screws up and delays his return to his coffin. He hates his suit and takes it off whenever he can.

So how does that tie in with Luke and his apparent flip-flopping on overflowing the Emperor in ROTJ? Perfectly IMO. Because again, he resents that the Emperor calls him to duty. He appreciates the power of the Dark Side, and the Emperor certainly enables his Dark Side "fix," but it's at the cost of having to wear the suit and follow orders. With Luke he sees a potential Dark Side ally who could handle the administrative duties of running the galaxy while allowing him to retreat to his castle and just lose himself in his own little hellish "paradise."

Now that will NOT be accomplished if Luke stays "good" and tries to get Vader to join the light. He doesn't want that. Hates the very thought. There's no coming back in Vader's mind, and if he and Luke kill the Emperor so that the Rebellion can win then he's a lone Dracula with an army of Van Helsings after his ass. No good. So at the climax of ESB he really does try to get Luke to go dark so that he can have a dark and quiet galaxy to retreat into. He really DID want order and an end to the destructive conflict...as long as darkness won.

In Jedi he saw that Luke just wasn't buying that and that it was either stick with the Emperor and continue running his master's errands from time to time or let his son kill the Emperor only to have to face a very angry and abused galaxy that would be screaming for his head. Not an option.

And with that Vader's character from ANH to ROTJ is completely reconciled and once again firmly perched at the very top of the very greatest villains in all of fiction.

 

[a-dev]

2 Rep-worthy posts from Khev there. Great point with the Aliens comparison.

 

[DiFabio]

I still don't buy the Vader fighting style thing though. If he could take out Obi-Wan without Obi-Wan lowering his defenses, he would have. There's a dertermination to take Obi-Wan out and vice versa. You see it when their exchanges miss and hit a wall that they want to chop each other up.

The reason Vader is so quick and magnificent in that end scene before the Tantive IV isn't because the plot calls for it, but because it's 2016 and you can replicate these cool video game fighting styles with better choreography and CGI techniques (see BvS with Batman in the warehouse like Jye mentioned). Something that wasn't possible in the 80s and didn't happen until Episode I. Vader in Rogue One fights exactly like how he does in the Battlefront or as Anakin in the old PS2 video games. Choking multiple ******* while striking them down with dizzying lightsaber twirls is like a signature move for Vader, Palpatine, Maul and all those other dark side bros. They can even throw their lightsaber like a boomerang, cut down enemies and call it back to them ) OT Vader couldn't do any of that and the character is clearly incapable.

To put it bluntly, Rogue One Vader would ****ing destroy OT Vader. There wouldn't be a contest. There are no similarities between their fighting style or even the way they move. Prowse/Bob Anderson would get wrecked!

 

[jye4ever]

I still don't buy the Vader fighting style thing though. If he could take out Obi-Wan without Obi-Wan lowering his defenses, he would have. There's a dertermination to take Obi-Wan out and vice versa. You see it when their exchanges miss and hit a wall that they want to chop each other up.

The reason Vader is so quick and magnificent in that end scene on the Tantive IV isn't because the plot calls for it, but because it's 2016 and you can replicate these cool video game fighting styles with better choreography and CGI techniques (see BvS with Batman in the warehouse like Jye mentioned). Something that wasn't possible in the 80s and didn't happen until Episode I. Vader in Rogue One fights exactly like how he does in the Battlefront or as Anakin in the old PS2 video games. Choking multiple ******* while striking them down with dizzying lightsaber twirls is like a signature move for Vader, Palpatine, Maul and all those other dark side bros. They can even throw their lightsaber like a boomerang, cut down enemies and call it back to them ) OT Vader couldn't do any of that and the character is clearly incapable.

To put it bluntly, Rogue One Vader would ****ing destroy OT Vader. There wouldn't be a contest. There are no similarities between their fighting style or even the way they move. Prowse/Bob Anderson would get wrecked!

While this is the reality, you have to rep Khev for making it work in the fantasy side of things

 

[DiFabio]

I'm not a Premium user anymore, my subscription is gone. No mo reppin'.

 

[pixletwin]

I am glad some of you guys were making a big deal out of Vader's fighting style. I expected Vader in RO to be flipping and jumping around, ala PT.

I was pleasantly surprised at how subdued and OT-like his fighting style remained.

Thank you.

 

[jye4ever]

lololololol

 

[DiFabio]

Not enough room to flip in those hallways. He would have gotten a blaster bolt in the ass if he tried that for sure.

 

[a-dev]

I remember seeing footage of Hamill practising the swordfighting and damn if he wasn't just as good as McGregor and Christensen in the prequels. The simple fact is the OT duels were slower and less elaborate because of the Vader suit.

 

[Khev]

Man that is a great post by Khev.

2 Rep-worthy posts from Khev there. Great point with the Aliens comparison.

Thanks guys. As great a theatrical experience that TFA was I'm actually now a bit worried that Episodes 8 and 9 might find a way to screw Vader up again, especially if rumors of Hayden Christensen reprising his role as a Force ghost or something come into effect. It'd be a pity if I had to dismiss TFA as "canon" as a result.

 

[DiFabio]

It'd be a pity if I had to dismiss TFA as "canon" as a result.

Wait, is Rogue One something you don't consider canon? It had Mustafar, Hayden puppet in the bacta (same wounds/damage from RoTS) a Clone Turbotank from Episode III (repurposed after the Clone Wars for criminals, Jyn is on it), Jimmy Smits Organa and Episode III Mon Mothma return.

 

[jye4ever]

That's why I totally subscribe to what Khev and pixle are describing, they didn't go full retard with him.

Sure it was done because 2016 demands it be done and besides think of the alternative.

Imagine if they gave us a static ANH Vader instead!



Actually they did give us a static Vader, that's the beauty of it.

 

[ShadowX81]

I remember seeing footage of Hamill practising the swordfighting and damn if he wasn't just as good as McGregor and Christensen in the prequels. The simple fact is the OT duels were slower and less elaborate because of the Vader suit.

Also the fact that the prop blades were loosely attached to the saber hilts, and had a tendency to break and fall off if they were swung or hit too quickly.

Guiness actually did want to "turn it up" just a bit during the duel with Vader in ANH, but the blade kept falling off so he had to hold back a lot.

 

[SNIKT1950]

The Vader/Obi-Wan fight in ANH is even more unwatchable now.

Really wish that was one of the things Lucas corrected in the Blu-ray release (instead of Vader's Noooooooo!!!! line in ROTJ).

 

[Khev]

I absolutely consider Rogue One canon. Vader's lava castle goes back to an unused story concept for ROTJ with a McQuarrie painting to boot, his appearance in the bacta tank is consistent to his OT backstory, the "turbotank" is based on a Joe Johnston AT-AT sketch for ESB, and both Bail Organa and Moth Mothma are OT era characters established well before the prequels. I'm not going to be such an elitist that I forsake Smits or the Mon Mothma actress (who didn't even appear in the final cut of ROTS) just because they had the misfortune of being associated with the prequels.

 

[Khev]

That's why I totally subscribe to what Khev and pixle are describing, they didn't go full retard with him.