Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (12/16/16) *SPOILERS*

[jye4ever]

And yes, quite possibly

At the risk of dredging up the big debate again - there's some points to be made about Kylo himself not being fully trained and his being injured - fair enough about the latter but the former point is undermined by the fact we saw this guy do things we'd never seen a jedi do before - stopping a blaster bolt and holding it stationary in the air while he went about his business, reading people's minds (Vader had to use an interrogation droid, there was no mention of him trying to force-read Leia's mind) - it seems unlikely this guy could be beaten by someone who has no training. His injury is the only valid component to the argument IMO.

I get that we can only go by the facts given to us....but I keep going back to this:

Why did Disney decide to expedite her strength and expertise in just one movie.

Why were they in such rush with her arc?

I'm placing foolish trust in Disney that Rey was by design for the greater 3 part story they already have written out instead of just girl power.

I hope one day we all can look back at TFA Rey and go:

 

[jye4ever]

Maybe that gave him a further handicap. But why didn't he knock her unconscious with a wave of his hand like he did earlier in the film...also an unprecedented jedi ability I might add

Not for a lack of trying, he slammed her against that tree.

Rey of Steel simply brushed that off lol

 

[Wor-Gar]

ANH of course (BB-8 didn't contain data on the bad guys' super-weapon.)

You are correct. Hidden clue found.

The rest is incidental.

 

[Khev]

Maybe that gave him a further handicap. But why didn't he knock her unconscious with a wave of his hand like he did earlier in the film...also an unprecedented jedi ability I might add

A fair question and it goes to show how tricky it can be to give a character certain powers if it will then constantly beg the question of why said powers aren't used at other points in the story. Something that has existed in SW before (why didn't Tarkin blow up Yavin instead of wasting time orbiting it/why didn't Obi-Wan use super speed, etc.) As for Kylo your guess is as good as mine, I'd probably lean toward the apologist notion that he wanted to prove to her that she wasn't his match in combat and thus "needed a teacher" so that she'd come willingly. Or maybe putting someone to sleep with the Force requires them to be "unawakened" like Rey on Takodana but not Rey on Starkiller.

 

[Khev]

I did complete my post-RO Harmy OT marathon (and now my kids want to go through the PT, ugh) and one thing that I felt was really driven home was the saga's demand for a resolution after watching those four films. *Especially* considering that ROTJ actually does give a resolution in literally every conceivable way. Hugs, dancing, fireworks, eradication of supreme evil, reconciliation with fallen good, *nothing* is left on the table. Which was always the case obviously but IMO Rogue One just drove home the need for finality all that much more.

As much as I love TFA there was no part of me that watched RO>SW>ESB>ROTJ and then thought "okay on to the next chapter now." It just felt like it was done.

And I did notice other little openings for "Rogue One-isms" to pop into Jedi. For instance when 3PO is recapping his adventures for the ewoks he babbles in Ewokese but every once in a while throws in some English words and sound effects. He starts off "bla bla bla Princess Leia bla bla Death Star and then goes into the events of ESB." Well we all know that when ROTJ was released he was supposed to be starting his tale with ANH but since RO revealed that the droids were present on board her ship at the Battle of Scarif it actually works to allow for his "Princess Leia/Death Star" bits to be a reference to his involvement at the end of Rogue One. Pretty cool.

And Luke going off on Vader at the end now sort of comes across as his "Rogue One" moment with him replacing Vader as the saber wielding badass and Vader being reduced to the frightened Rebel Troopers. But then it goes sideways because instead of continuing the cycle Luke ends it. Throws away his saber instead of heralding a new era of terror.

Then TFA comes along and totally undermines Luke ending the reign of the Sith and all that Jyn Erso's team accomplished. Imagine if Saving Private Ryan was a fictional story and instead of the end being old Ryan at the cemetary he's instead a general giving orders to a fresh new squad of recruits fighting the same damn bad guys in a continuation of the same damn war, decades later. The sacrifices at Omaha Beach and the final stand-off would have been rendered utterly inconsequential.

Now I suppose that Disney could be aiming to have a new and true all-encompassing final victory of ultimate satisfaction at the end of Episode IX but I have to wonder if it's even possible and more importantly if Disney even wants that. Maz's speech about "the fight between the light and the dark is neverending, it just takes different forms" seems to indicate that they are making the sound business decision of just having these things continue forever (and I think we can probably all agree that that is 100% their intention.)

So if we now have an unending MCU in space then you either commit to Star Wars being a lifelong tradition of revolving characters and no final resolution or at some point you have to pick a jumping off point. And I really don't think that there will ever be a more satisfying place to do that than the end of Return of the Jedi. Not to say that I'm boycotting Episode VIII or anything but just that in my mind the "true" story of SW will be over and done with and I'll just be showing up for the spectacle and diversion once or twice a year (until even that wears thin) and to see if new filmmakers can find new ways to impress me regardless of what's canon or not.

 

[jye4ever]

 

[Khev]

Dude, so awesome. Stupid Unkar Plutt.

 

[jye4ever]

Finn with a lightsaber and his michael jackson hands.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Poor wilted Vader.

 

[xipotec]

Khev I actually would be more forgiving of the greatest hits vibe had the set pieces been more thrilling.

SO this

is better than this....

I think you missed that TFA is set in a post war Universe.....it focuses on the people left behind after the war and those dealing with the struggle of the remaining factions and how it affects the people with in that universe. (including Kylo!!!) Most of this film was designed to show how the war is affecting families and people who have nothing to do with the power struggles of the different factions.


AND...for the 1 billionth time, REY beat KYLO because he was exhausted from everything he had been through. All the other feats he performed he did outside of battle and for a short time. PLUS Rey found the force and its pretty clear they intended to show that even without training she is WAY powerful.

We have seen time and time again, that using the force exausts you...(well excluding PT, where it did not matter. That exact reason has always been a major sticking point for me.

 

[a-dev]

A fair question and it goes to show how tricky it can be to give a character certain powers if it will then constantly beg the question of why said powers aren't used at other points in the story. Something that has existed in SW before (why didn't Tarkin blow up Yavin instead of wasting time orbiting it/why didn't Obi-Wan use super speed, etc.) As for Kylo your guess is as good as mine, I'd probably lean toward the apologist notion that he wanted to prove to her that she wasn't his match in combat and thus "needed a teacher" so that she'd come willingly. Or maybe putting someone to sleep with the Force requires them to be "unawakened" like Rey on Takodana but not Rey on Starkiller.

Yep that occurred to me when I made the post. Not much we can do but just accept these things because they can be applied to our cherished movies aswell. Anyway, we'll see what they do in the next 2 films.

I did complete my post-RO Harmy OT marathon (and now my kids want to go through the PT, ugh) and one thing that I felt was really driven home was the saga's demand for a resolution after watching those four films. *Especially* considering that ROTJ actually does give a resolution in literally every conceivable way. Hugs, dancing, fireworks, eradication of supreme evil, reconciliation with fallen good, *nothing* is left on the table. Which was always the case obviously but IMO Rogue One just drove home the need for finality all that much more.

As much as I love TFA there was no part of me that watched RO>SW>ESB>ROTJ and then thought "okay on to the next chapter now." It just felt like it was done.


Then TFA comes along and totally undermines Luke ending the reign of the Sith and all that Jyn Erso's team accomplished. Imagine if Saving Private Ryan was a fictional story and instead of the end being old Ryan at the cemetary he's instead a general giving orders to a fresh new squad of recruits fighting the same damn bad guys in a continuation of the same damn war, decades later. The sacrifices at Omaha Beach and the final stand-off would have been rendered utterly inconsequential.

All of this. This is the stuff that really makes me question the direction they took with TFA. Look at the post-ROTJ books. I'm pretty sure they managed to continue the story without completely undermining the ending of ROTJ and the characters therein. Granted they did have the benefit of not being forced to start their stories 30 years after the events of ROTJ

 

[Khev]

One way that I felt that TFA justified its existence was by giving us real people in Stormtrooper costumes again but kicking ass in new ways and CG X-Wings flying around looking all sweet in 3D. But then RO comes out and gives us *cooler* live-action Stormtroopers and *cooler* X-Wing action that does *not* undermine the victories of ROTJ and suddenly even a lot of the good parts of TFA become ultimately unnecessary.

That said I still love the movie but not as an integral part of the saga.

 

[SNIKT1950]

The characters in TFA alone, smoke everyone in RO.

The only character I cared about in RO was Vader. In TFA, everyone made an impact on me - specially Rey (the protagonist). Jyn just didn't have the characterization she needed to make a lasting impact. Her character never really got fleshed out.

 

[jye4ever]

SO this

is better than this....

I think you missed that TFA is set in a post war Universe.....it focuses on the people left behind after the war and those dealing with the struggle of the remaining factions and how it affects the people with in that universe. (including Kylo!!!) Most of this film was designed to show how the war is affecting families and people who have nothing to do with the power struggles of the different factions.


AND...for the 1 billionth time, REY beat KYLO because he was exhausted from everything he had been through. All the other feats he performed he did outside of battle and for a short time. PLUS Rey found the force and its pretty clear they intended to show that even without training she is WAY powerful.

We have seen time and time again, that using the force exausts you...(well excluding PT, where it did not matter. That exact reason has always been a major sticking point for me.

That Naboo photo relaxes me.

Anyways, back to what you're saying.

You definately got alot more out of that TFA crawl than I did

But you're confusing me with JAWS, for me TFA much > TPM.

One way that I felt that TFA justified its existence was by giving us real people in Stormtrooper costumes again but kicking ass in new ways and CG X-Wings flying around looking all sweet in 3D. But then RO comes out and gives us *cooler* live-action Stormtroopers and *cooler* X-Wing action that does *not* undermine the victories of ROTJ and suddenly even a lot of the good parts of TFA become ultimately unnecessary.

That said I still love the movie but not as an integral part of the saga.

Nice.

Khev is the one dude I wouldn't mind hanging out with.

 

[Khev]

*insert Tango & Cash pic, you know the one*



That said there's a good number of peeps here that would be fun to catch a flick with, pretty much everyone whose been posting in this very thread today.

 

[karamazov80]

TFA and RO didn't go so stupidly out into left field as to present us with a "Jar Jar Binks" but having the wherewithal to not make such a colossal blunder does not equal "lazy and derivative." Because in actuality a "novel" approach to SW is not using one of the heroes from ANH as a main or supporting character for once. Or daring to change the entire genre from what has been presented before (something not done with any sequel in any franchise since ALIENS.) A novel approach is being the first SW movie to not feature a lightsaber duel, a Force sensitive lead character, or have any of the main protagonists survive.

When a filmmaker takes a beloved franchise and then drags it through the mud in a way I've never seen before I don't give them credit for being original, nor do I dismiss a sequel that is actually more original than The Empire Strikes Back for being too derivative.

I hear where you are coming from, and obviously the Lucas Prequels maintained clear connections with the other films. But to my eyes they were much more original, and risky, due to the fundamentally different kinds of stories and storytelling approaches. I don't like the end result, and maybe a lot of that came from the wrong place creatively-trying to appeal to kids and maximizing the merchandising potential with clones, but I feel this is the case. The last two films were geared toward appealing to nostalgia much more strongly than the other Prequels imo. And it obviously works for many fans, while also breeding new ones, even if 95% of those are kids of parents who loved the originals. I enjoy the new films, but like marvel studios stuff, see it as largely disposable entertainment.

To jyes earlier post, I mostly watch kids movies nowadays, unfortunately. But when I have time to myself I try to see something I haven't seen before. I think the only movie I've seen more than a couple of times released over the past several years is fury road. Doof warrior ftw!

 

[abake]

I did complete my post-RO Harmy OT marathon (and now my kids want to go through the PT, ugh) and one thing that I felt was really driven home was the saga's demand for a resolution after watching those four films. *Especially* considering that ROTJ actually does give a resolution in literally every conceivable way. Hugs, dancing, fireworks, eradication of supreme evil, reconciliation with fallen good, *nothing* is left on the table. Which was always the case obviously but IMO Rogue One just drove home the need for finality all that much more.

As much as I love TFA there was no part of me that watched RO>SW>ESB>ROTJ and then thought "okay on to the next chapter now." It just felt like it was done.

And I did notice other little openings for "Rogue One-isms" to pop into Jedi. For instance when 3PO is recapping his adventures for the ewoks he babbles in Ewokese but every once in a while throws in some English words and sound effects. He starts off "bla bla bla Princess Leia bla bla Death Star and then goes into the events of ESB." Well we all know that when ROTJ was released he was supposed to be starting his tale with ANH but since RO revealed that the droids were present on board her ship at the Battle of Scarif it actually works to allow for his "Princess Leia/Death Star" bits to be a reference to his involvement at the end of Rogue One. Pretty cool.

And Luke going off on Vader at the end now sort of comes across as his "Rogue One" moment with him replacing Vader as the saber wielding badass and Vader being reduced to the frightened Rebel Troopers. But then it goes sideways because instead of continuing the cycle Luke ends it. Throws away his saber instead of heralding a new era of terror.

Then TFA comes along and totally undermines Luke ending the reign of the Sith and all that Jyn Erso's team accomplished. Imagine if Saving Private Ryan was a fictional story and instead of the end being old Ryan at the cemetary he's instead a general giving orders to a fresh new squad of recruits fighting the same damn bad guys in a continuation of the same damn war, decades later. The sacrifices at Omaha Beach and the final stand-off would have been rendered utterly inconsequential.

Now I suppose that Disney could be aiming to have a new and true all-encompassing final victory of ultimate satisfaction at the end of Episode IX but I have to wonder if it's even possible and more importantly if Disney even wants that. Maz's speech about "the fight between the light and the dark is neverending, it just takes different forms" seems to indicate that they are making the sound business decision of just having these things continue forever (and I think we can probably all agree that that is 100% their intention.)

So if we now have an unending MCU in space then you either commit to Star Wars being a lifelong tradition of revolving characters and no final resolution or at some point you have to pick a jumping off point. And I really don't think that there will ever be a more satisfying place to do that than the end of Return of the Jedi. Not to say that I'm boycotting Episode VIII or anything but just that in my mind the "true" story of SW will be over and done with and I'll just be showing up for the spectacle and diversion once or twice a year (until even that wears thin) and to see if new filmmakers can find new ways to impress me regardless of what's canon or not.

My point all along.
TFA makes every single heroic moment in the entire saga meaningless.

But hey, it's pretty to look at.

 

[a-dev]

*insert Tango & Cash pic, you know the one*



That said there's a good number of peeps here that would be fun to catch a flick with, pretty much everyone whose been posting in this very thread today.

 

[ShadowX81]

TFA reminds me of those songs you hear online that they say was composed entirely and autonomously by a computer program. A product of some code programmed to know what notes and chords appeal to the ear.

On first experience everything seems to be right, but something just doesn't click with you, and as you look closer you start to see a few issues.

Definitely not displeasing, but falls a bit flat. It relies too much on what research says will be enjoyable and less on the natural creative intuition which is missing when profits and marketability are put first.

 

[Wor-Gar]

It relies too much on what research says will be enjoyable and less on the natural creative intuition ...

Good point.

It does seem like the movie was assembled from a bunch of "we got to have this" moments decided upon in advance.