Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[ajp4mgs]

Jedi commits the greatest sin a SW movie can commit.. Its freaking boring.

This blows me away. There are plenty of criticisms that I completely understand, even as a big fan of the movie; but boring!? ROTJ had more action pieces than either of the two previous movies. Rancor pit, skiff battle, speeder bikes, Endor battle, lightsaber duel, and ending space battle.

You can say that scenes like the skiff battle and the Endor/Ewok action were not executed as well as you'd like, but how can you not be at least superficially entertained by the pirate-movie energy as henchman are being tossed into a giant tentacled ******? [EDIT: Wow, the medical/scientific term for female sex organ gets censored? Sigh.] Or not be entertained by watching an AT-ST get smashed, or tripped up by rolling logs?

I totally get how you can hate Chewie's Tarzan yell, and the teddy bear nature of the Ewoks, but do the action sequences really *bore* you as you're watching? And if villains are a key to being entertained, ROTJ added to Vader (who needed his villainy moderated for the story) with two of the most iconic villains ever (Jabba and the Emperor).

ANH and ESB had far more compelling non-action sequences, much better overall storytelling, and just flat-out better films. But in terms of energy level, I just don't understand the criticism of ROTJ not delivering enough entertainment value. Regrettable stuff? Sure, I totally get that. But boring? I can't relate (thankfully). I've always regarded it as a crowd-pleaser that at least delivered entertainment value even if it didn't live up to the greatness of the previous two.

 

[JAWS]

This blows me away. There are plenty of criticisms that I completely understand, even as a big fan of the movie; but boring!? ROTJ had more action pieces than either of the two previous movies. Rancor pit, skiff battle, speeder bikes, Endor battle, lightsaber duel, and ending space battle.

First let me say this.. You have this to deal with in the film.... After the skiff battle to when the Space battle finally begins. Its just so freaking dull. You have the speeder bike chase to break it up but like I said it has not aged well.. And I am not going to allow its age to be an excuse because SW and Empire still hold up.

I have never been a fan of the Rancor pit. Even as a kid it did nothing for me. I think I would have liked it more if it was stop motion.. I never liked it being a puppet. Still don't.

Jedi has plenty of action sure. But other then the Final Space battle it all falls short compared to the other films.

Its lightsaber duel has nothing on Empire's. Its one of the worst in the saga IMO.

You can say that scenes like the skiff battle and the Endor/Ewok action were not executed as well as you'd like, but how can you not be at least superficially entertained by the pirate-movie energy as henchman are being tossed into a giant tentacled ******? [EDIT: Wow, the medical/scientific term for female sex organ gets censored? Sigh.] Or not be entertained by watching an AT-ST get smashed, or tripped up by rolling logs?

Like I said.. I just check out when the Ewoks are involved in the battle. I don't find it exciting or entertaining.

The sail barge is OK and I lump that in with Jabba stuff.

And I would say that I superficially enjoy the Space battle.. Since none of our three core characters are up there fighting in it, its all about the visuals.

I totally get how you can hate Chewie's Tarzan yell, and the teddy bear nature of the Ewoks, but do the action sequences really *bore* you as you're watching? And if villains are a key to being entertained, ROTJ added to Vader (who needed his villainy moderated for the story) with two of the most iconic villains ever (Jabba and the Emperor).

Ever see Van Helsing movie.. That film is filled with action... But man its boring.. Just because the film has action in it does not mean it cant be boring.

The problem with the Emperor is that those scenes with Luke just take so long to get to the point.. Luke looking out at the battle, turning around thinking of picking up the saber just to look back at the battle.

If any of this was shot in a visually interesting way I could get into it more.

Jabba is a wonderful character.. Too bad he is only in it for the first 20+ min.

ANH and ESB had far more compelling non-action sequences, much better overall storytelling, and just flat-out better films. But in terms of energy level, I just don't understand the criticism of ROTJ not delivering enough entertainment value. Regrettable stuff? Sure, I totally get that. But boring? I can't relate (thankfully). I've always regarded it as a crowd-pleaser that at least delivered entertainment value even if it didn't live up to the greatness of the previous two.

I'm glad you mention the fact that ANH and ESB had more compelling non action sequences.

I am always amazed at how fast the first hour of SW flys by.. Its just moves at a perfect pace.

Empire is written so well and everything matters.

ROTJ does such an outstanding job of making Luke boring, Vader Boring, Solo and Leia boring that I just have trouble caring when its time to. There is a reason Jabba and the Emperor stand out so well.. They are the only two characters that are not boring.

When they hit Endor all I am left with is the characters and the acting and the lack of real drama.. Well drama that is written and filmed well anyways. So I find myself really really bored.

I keep coming back to this.. But Really what does Han Solo as a character offer this film? What does Ford do to help us enjoy what little the character does in this film.. Leia.. OMG.. I just cant listen to Carrie's husky monotone voice in this film without cringing every time. I realize Luke is supposed to be in another place mentally.. He is all grown up and wants to save his dad.. But that is where the rest of the characters have to step it up so he can be allowed to be more boring... But the script and cast fail him. Jabba and the Emperor did there part.. Not so with the others.

I can always enjoy ROTJ on a very superficial level but lets face it the Skiff battle and Lightsaber duel is no Battle of Yavin, Rescue of the Princes, Tie Fighter escape, Blockade runner attack, Battle of Hoth, Asteroid chase, Bespin lightsaber duel or Bespin Escape.

And the script, characters, and acting are nothing compared to the other two films.

Ayways that is why I find it boring.

 

[jal76]

Jedi commits the greatest sin a SW movie can commit.. Its freaking boring.


Even if he thinks he is comparing crap to crap.. You sort of lose if you think AOTC is a better film the TROS.


So overall I am happy with the saga. I am one of the lucky ones I guess

To quote one of your all time most revered movies...Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
TROS does not deserve to be mentioned in the same conversation as ROTJ.
ROTJ is not perfect but just the opening sequence in Jabba?s Palace alone is 10 times better than the entire sequel trilogy combined. There is nothing in the ST that compares to Luke?s final battle with Vader...the staging, the dialogue, the music. Even with Lucas adding the terrible ?NOOOO!? that moment is still better than ANY single moment in the ST.
In fact whatever the worst moment of ROTJ is is better than whatever moment passes for the best moment in TROS.
As for AOTC being better than TROS...it is.
Not just a little better...but a lot better.
AOTC is garbage that lit itself on fire...I stepped back and walked away from the ashes.
TROS is bigger garbage that lit itself on fire and then embraced the rest of the Star Wars movies in a big fiery hug and burned them down with it.
No offense but I am a little embarrassed for anyone who sat in the theater with goosebumps running up their arms as that terrible Rey character stared blankly into the camera and declared ?Rey Skywalker? shortly after having made out with the Goth bad guy in an attempt to turn Star Wars into the YA successor to Twilight.
If that?s what you are looking for in Star Wars it?s no surprise that you think TROS is actually better than 1/3 of the OT.

 

[a-dev]

Confusing viewpoints abound, even from people whose side you're generally on.

From the guys I often agree with it's probably the love of TROS. If one was willing to write off the Sequel Trilogy after TFA and TLJ I just don't know how TROS salvaged anything. It was too damn late in the game. Those were the characters we were stuck with, that was the storyline and the Big Three OT character's fates had already been sealed...just meh.

For the others, I'll never understand how ROTS saved the Prequel Trilogy. All the same flaws as the prior two movies when it most desperately needed to get away from them in order to be the compelling drama I was hoping for. For me it's barely watchable. And I certainly wouldn't rank it on par with - let alone above - any movie in the Original Trilogy.

 

[JAWS]

To quote one of your all time most revered movies...Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.

Obviously you have not been reading my posts..

 

[Bravomite]

ROTJ was easily my favourite as a kid out of the OT and I think that has to be down to the action throughout. It definitely wasn’t boring to kid me... but it is the only OT movie that makes me cringe as an adult when I watch it with normies who are not familiar with Star Wars.

Even as youngling I do remember thinking how awkward the scene was between Leia and Luke and then Leia and Han when she found out who her family were and I didn’t really have any concept of bad acting back then!

 

[JAWS]

Confusing viewpoints abound, even from people whose side you're generally on.

For me it's probably the love of TROS. If one was willing to write off the Sequel Trilogy after TFA and TLJ I just don't know how TROS salvaged anything. It was too damn late in the game. Those were the characters we were stuck with, that was the storyline and the Big Three OT character's fates had already been sealed...just meh.

I needed a reason for Reys powers.. The film gave me that.

I needed the Han death sequence to mean more. It did that.

It improved my enjoyment of TFA and not so much TLJ.

I personally had no issues with the way Han and Luke were treated. So their sealed fates were fine with me on a dramatic level.

 

[jal76]

Obviously you have not been reading my posts..

I momentarily confused you with those other two who love all of the ST movies...I forgot that you only share in their irrational love for TROS.

 

[Bravomite]

TROS > ROTJ

Khev ... you can?t mean that. The space battle in TROS better than the space battle in ROTJ? The Throne Room confrontation better in TROS? How can anything be better than ?It?s a trap?! In a few years time I believe you will feel differently about this post.

 

[JAWS]

To quote one of your all time most revered movies...Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
TROS does not deserve to be mentioned in the same conversation as ROTJ.
ROTJ is not perfect but just the opening sequence in Jabba?s Palace alone is 10 times better than the entire sequel trilogy combined. There is nothing in the ST that compares to Luke?s final battle with Vader...the staging, the dialogue, the music. Even with Lucas adding the terrible ?NOOOO!? that moment is still better than ANY single moment in the ST.
In fact whatever the worst moment of ROTJ is is better than whatever moment passes for the best moment in TROS.
As for AOTC being better than TROS...it is.
Not just a little better...but a lot better.
AOTC is garbage that lit itself on fire...I stepped back and walked away from the ashes.
TROS is bigger garbage that lit itself on fire and then embraced the rest of the Star Wars movies in a big fiery hug and burned them down with it.
No offense but I am a little embarrassed for anyone who sat in the theater with goosebumps running up their arms as that terrible Rey character stared blankly into the camera and declared ?Rey Skywalker? shortly after having made out with the Goth bad guy in an attempt to turn Star Wars into the YA successor to Twilight.
If that?s what you are looking for in Star Wars it?s no surprise that you think TROS is actually better than 1/3 of the OT.

Well I didnt get goosebumps so I guess you dont have to feel sorry for me.


Sorry.. Read above for my issues with ROTJ.

Maybe I look more favorably on TROS because I found it to be enjoyable after two lackluster films..

Maybe I have a problem with ROTJ because it was a lackluster film that followed two of the greatest.

The Vader vs Luke scene in Jedi is not that great until luke gets the upper hand.. Great Dialogue?? I mean compare that to the Dialogue in ESB.

Sorry.. I guess what i cant find on a superficial level with ROTJ, I can with TROS.

If the acting is good I usually can go along for the ride.

Your "Whatever the worst moment in ROTJ is better then whatever passes as the best moment in TROS" statement is IMO the best example of STDS yet. Its just Hyperbole.

 

[jal76]

I needed a reason for Reys powers.. The film gave me that.

I needed the Han death sequence to mean more. It did that.

It improved my enjoyment of TFA and not so much TLJ.

I personally had no issues with the way Han and Luke were treated. So their sealed fates were fine with me on a dramatic level.

Why should we have to twist ourselves into pretzels to get good reasons for Rey?s powers and Han?s death?
How about a scenario where the folks in charge just made better decisions and wrote better characters out of the gate? I am not going to forgive garbage just because it has a Star Wars logo stamped on it.
I feel bad for folks that feel that they are contractually obligated to watch Star Wars movies because their childhoods are all tied up in it.
That?s why there was so much anger when the ST messed the bed. In my case I had no anger...I just shrugged my shoulders and walked away.
I have a shelf that has every singe Star Wars Physical Media release on it...all of the films...the Blu Ray boxed set of Clone Wars...the 2 DVDs of each season of the 2-D animated Clone Wars from Genndy Tarkovsky...even all of the LEGO Star Wars animated specials. TROS 4K is missing from the shelf...because it was a terrible movie so why would I buy it? It?s really that simple for me.
Just make good movies.

 

[JAWS]

Khev ... you can?t mean that. The space battle in TROS better than the space battle in ROTJ? The Throne Room confrontation better in TROS? How can anything be better than ?It?s a trap?! In a few years time I believe you will feel differently about this post.

You can take the two best parts of ROTJ and use them to prop the film up... But then you got the rest of the film to deal with.


Again for me it boils down to the acting in these two movies.. I can get more sucked into the world of TROS because everyone is doing a solid job.. ROTJ came across as collecting a paycheck.

Its my biggest issue with the PT.. I could be 100% more on board if the acting was better.

 

[jal76]

Well I didnt get goosebumps so I guess you dont have to feel sorry for me.

Your "Whatever the worst moment in ROTJ is better then whatever passes as the best moment in TROS" statement is IMO the best example of STDS yet. Its just Hyperbole.

No...I mean it sincerely. It just goes to show how wide ranging opinions on anything can actually be. I consider TROS to be an irredeemable dumpster fire without a single moment that I ever wish to revisit. I find so much of that movie to be embarrassing more than anything else.
To be honest I consider your defense of this movie to be a unique form of derangement too. I recall when TPM came out and was terrible and I just wanted to love it more than anything...even to the point of lying to myself about its obvious failure. I am recognizing a lot of that in your posts too and I can certainly sympathize.

 

[JAWS]

Why should we have to twist ourselves into pretzels to get good reasons for Rey?s powers and Han?s death?
How about a scenario where the folks in charge just made better decisions and wrote better characters out of the gate? I am not going to forgive garbage just because it has a Star Wars logo stamped on it.
I feel bad for folks that feel that they are contractually obligated to watch Star Wars movies because their childhoods are all tied up in it.
That?s why there was so much anger when the ST messed the bed. In my case I had no anger...I just shrugged my shoulders and walked away.
I have a shelf that has every singe Star Wars Physical Media release on it...all of the films...the Blu Ray boxed set of Clone Wars...the 2 DVDs of each season of the 2-D animated Clone Wars from Genndy Tarkovsky...even all of the LEGO Star Wars animated specials. TROS 4K is missing from the shelf...because it was a terrible movie so why would I buy it? It?s really that simple for me.
Just make good movies.

Han's death now means more to me in TFA now that I know Ben goes to the light side and the love he shows that he has for his father.

I had issues with Rey's powers.. Because it came from a villain I am better with it. No pretzels required.

I have said it before.. The TROS took me back to what I felt as a child for these movies. I had fun.. I was in a space opera.. I was on an adventure.

Don't know what else to say.. you didn't like it.. Thats fine.. I get it.. I hated the first two films in the ST.. This one stuck the landing for me. Not perfectly but in the best most fun way possible after what came before. I also found Kylo Ren to be the most interesting character since the OT main three. So that helped my enjoyment also.

 

[Otomofan]

I'd rather watch AOTC on a ten hour loop with Clockwork Orange things in my eyes than sit through ROTS once.

Also, the Rancor WAS a stop-motion puppet. Who said it wasn't?

 

[JAWS]

I'd rather watch AOTC on a ten hour loop with Clockwork Orange things in my eyes than sit through ROTS once.

Also, the Rancor WAS a stop-motion puppet. Who said it wasn't?

It was just a puppet... No stop motion required.

Ray Harryhausen, AT-ATs, Nightmare before Christmas = Stop Motion.

Rancor, Muppet family Christmas = Puppets

 

[JAWS]

I'd rather watch AOTC on a ten hour loop with Clockwork Orange things in my eyes than sit through ROTS once.

Also, the Rancor WAS a stop-motion puppet. Who said it wasn't?

Oh man.. Poor ROTS.. What did it do to be ranked below AOTC

 

[JAWS]

No...I mean it sincerely. It just goes to show how wide ranging opinions on anything can actually be. I consider TROS to be an irredeemable dumpster fire without a single moment that I ever wish to revisit. I find so much of that movie to be embarrassing more than anything else.
To be honest I consider your defense of this movie to be a unique form of derangement too. I recall when TPM came out and was terrible and I just wanted to love it more than anything...even to the point of lying to myself about its obvious failure. I am recognizing a lot of that in your posts too and I can certainly sympathize.

Well there is the difference between you and me.. While I enjoyed parts of TPM, I knew when the film was released it was a mess.

Funny enough.. I came back to it and think its the best of the PT.


I get what you are saying.. I was that way with AOTC and then ROTS. I thought they were both good movies when they first came out.. Mostly because they were not TPM.. But it just took a couple of repeat viewings to find AOTC to be boarder line unwatchable and ROTS to be the all time great missed opportunity.

I have watched TROS 5 times now and enjoyed it each time except for the Cave sequence. Its flawed but reminds me the most of ANH more then any of the other films in the saga because for me it was a fun SW adventure film.

If the acting was PT level then I would agree that the film would fail me in the future. But there is nothing corny enough and no poor acting in it to ever have me turn my back completely

 

[JAWS]

So I had an interesting conversation with a relative of mine last weekend. He is younger and grew up with the PT.. He asked how I like the last SW film and I said I liked it.. He had the reaction and complaints that most here on this thread do..

It was funny to hear the complaints i read on this board actually verbalized.. As he is only the 2nd person I have met in my personal life that did not like the film..

Anyways we went through the usual back and forth about the likes and dislikes and then he came about to how the OT characters were treated.

I gave him my opinion about how it was the only way to split up the core team and to allow another empire to rise.

You had to have the loss of a child to split up Han and Leia and you had to have that loss be Luke's fault (at least in his head) to split Luke from everyone..

I was a bit more descriptive then that and he kind of got a smile and said.. "Now that is cool but the film should have explained all that"

To that I said "That is the difference between those that grew up with the PT in existence and those that didn't.. We were always using our imagination and filling in the holes. We did not feel the need to have it all spelled out. Not in the SW Universe anyways.. He smiled and agreed.. but he still holds no love for TROS or any of the ST. He did understand my points for liking what I liked such as Han's death having more meaning and it being the path to Kylo's redemption and all that.. I also stated I understood the hate that the films are getting especially the TLJ and that somehow I was able to find joy in TROS.

It was a great conversation and kind of surreal to hear it spoken out loud with a real person

 

[jal76]

Well there is the difference between you and me.. While I enjoyed parts of TPM, I knew when the film was released it was a mess.

Funny enough.. I came back to it and think its the best of the PT.


I get what you are saying.. I was that way with AOTC and then ROTS. I thought they were both good movies when they first came out.. Mostly because they were not TPM.. But it just took a couple of repeat viewings to find AOTC to be boarder line unwatchable and ROTS to be the all time great missed opportunity.

I have watched TROS 5 times now and enjoyed it each time except for the Cave sequence. Its flawed but reminds me the most of ANH more then any of the other films in the saga because for me it was a fun SW adventure film.

If the acting was PT level then I would agree that the film would fail me in the future. But there is nothing corny enough and no poor acting in it to ever have me turn my back completely

This makes sense...but think about the moment when Poe has to declare with a straight faces and an exaggerated look of consternation that ?somehow the Emperor has returned.?
In spite of the acting talent terrible writing can derail the best actors and moments like that rank right alongside the PT?s poorest performances.
Then when the Hobbit starts rambling on about Sith magic, because I guess in the ST colleges teach Sith Lore as an elective, it only goes from bad to worse.
The actors are good but the writing is so bad that they are crippled.
Similar to the PT...Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman, Liam Neeson, and Natalie Portman are better actors than anyone in the ST with the possible exception of Adam Driver. All but McGregor have been nominated for or won Academy Awards for acting.
They were destroyed by bad writing and bad direction. Just like the performances in TROS.