Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[JAWS]

I dont watch atoc very often but if i recall correctly that scene happen right before he goes to tatoonie to rescue his mother and slaughter the tuskens? I believe i just took it as a force dream but its possible palps had something to do with it, maybe a more subtle use of the method that wouldnt be detected by the council. Maybe palps also had something to do with the nightmare about padme dying as well but Luke also had terrible visions in the ot and we know it wasnt palps right. Yoda just explains them as future visions that may or mat not come to pass but luke always ran off like anakin to save the people he saw hurting in his force dreams/visions

Vader was in lukes head he just didnt allow his father to brainwash him, he would always close his eyes and either think of ben or something else to get the voice out of his head and sever the connection-maybe luke should have taught ben his technique or maybe vader wasnt as good at it as palpatine was-which is most likely the case

In ben’s case he literally thought the voices in his head where his own since they started at such a young age. It was constantly teling him his parents hated and resented him, that they love their precious resistance more then him, he is nothing but a burden to them. This is why he has a deep hatred for the resistence and he only hates his father because thats what the voice was telling him. As he grew older palps would talk to him as vader his grandfather telling him the jedi were evil, his uncle, mother and father were evil. Palps had competely reconfigured his mind and how he thought, he just couldnt erase bens feelings or his emotions which kept pulling him towards the light and his true self

I took the "Every voice Inside your head" to mean the voice of Snoke and Vader who were the ones telling him his parents didn't care about him. I figured snoke was there from the beginning.. That's how Leia and Han knew it was Snoke that was to blame.. I imagine that Ben had told them at some point about the voice of snoke.

Again if you want to say brainwashed like mind control.. As Bucky was more mind controlled.. I just don't see it that way.


IMO its no different then what Palps was doing sitting next to Anakin at the Opera.. Or telling him that the council is jealous of his power.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I still see nothing in the films that says its bucky style mind control. All the ben solo Moments are just the fact that he has always been torn in two. He thought killing Solo would rid him of that but it just made it worse. Again I see nothing on film nor anything said in the film to make me think he is being Brainwashed/mind controlled like Bucky.

Unless you are talking about the way Hitler got people to follow him.. Or maybe even a cult leader.. but that is different then what Bucky was.. Bucky was literally a puppet and would d things even though he didnt want to. He could not help himself. Again I see Kylo making his own decisions good and bad in that film.




I mean in his head like Vader and Snoke were actual voices in Ben Solo's

Again Anakin was manipulated.. Everything you show me there in they clip is Anakin just thinking about what Palps said to him.. Not Palps sending him a Jedi voice mail.

The problem is palps never said those exact words to him before so it couldnt be memory recall

Brainwashing is a form a mind control its the exact same thing the nazis/hydra did to bucky. The sith just do it differently then hydra, they dont strap you in a chair or zap your brain or force you to watch disturbing images. They dont need close contact. They go directly into your mind as voice in your head which can sound just like your own. Palaptine was every voice he had ever heard in his head

Killing solo weakened ben because again he was brainwashed into killing his father it wasnt his own real thoughts telling him to kill his father. If it was he would have been fully committed to the act and grown even more powerful, palpatine killed his own parents without a second thought or even batting an eyelid. Same with anakin after he stormed the temple killing all his former friends and even young children cause he was fully committed to what he was doing and in control of his actions. Even after years of brainwashing ben could still barely do it- its why snoke keeps ripping him about his weakness for solo and his family- palps cannot rid the boy of his feelings he can only influence and Control his thoughts- so he tried hard to shame and anger him into killing them by calling him weak. Ben says i know what i have to do but i dont think i have the strength to do it. In other words, i have to kill you thats what my mind (and snoke) is telling me to do and has been telling me to do my whole life, but my heart cannot do it. Just like bucky and cap except again cap was forcing bucky to kill him in cold blood “im in it for the long haul bucky” he did not make it easy on him. Whereas han makes it easier on ben, when ben asks him for help he says “anything son” after he basically grabs the saber and puts it near his chest so all kylo has to do is pull the trigger. Big difference in how it went down. Had han stood his ground Or had the same talk he did in tros and or forced solo to strike him down rather then make it easier for him to do, who knows what would have happened

If your dad knew your were being controlled by some lunatic sith im sure he would have done the same thing. During the conversation on the bridge Han knows his son is mentally ****ed up and doesnt like to see him suffering like this- its as if “something” else is forcing his son to do this-at first he tries to get thru to ben but at some point he realizes snokes hold over him is too powerful. Snoke is just using you ben he says. Han was also worried what snoke would do to ben if he did not kill him there so thats why he made it easy on ben. He had already failed to kill him in the past which snoke reamed ben about earlier in the film. I just saw it as han sacrificing himself for his son in order to protect him. Once Han realized there was no chance in hell kylo was going to leave with him, if he had let han escape again he would have went back to snoke, and snoke/palps would have killed him.

Maybe thats why i like tfa so much i didnt interpret hans death the same way as some other people and i never viewed han as a deadbeat father because everything ren said about his father wasnt real it was all snoke (palps as we latter find out) manipulating/controlling bens mind from the start. Even when he was trying to convince rey how bad han was as a father he wasnt very convincing because he didnt really believe it himself deep down. Its part of the reason it didnt work on rey. I saw hans self sacrifice as an act of love not stupidity, much like vader, just in hans case his son was still under palps/snokes control and sadly his sacrifice while it saved his sons life it wasnt enough to snap him out of the mind control Palps/snoke had over him

 

[Khev]

I mean in his head like Vader and Snoke were actual voices in Ben Solo's

Again Anakin was manipulated.. Everything you show me there in they clip is Anakin just thinking about what Palps said to him.. Not Palps sending him a Jedi voice mail.

In that scene Palpatine speaks in Anakin's head saying "You *do* know, don?t you? If they destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost."

He was literally referring to the group of Jedi that Anakin had *just* sent to arrest him. It was not a memory, it was his actual voice. Palpatine was speaking to Anakin in real time about actions that had just begun to be carried out.

 

[JAWS]

In that scene Palpatine speaks in Anakin's head saying "You *do* know, don?t you? If they destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost."

He was literally referring to the group of Jedi that Anakin had *just* sent to arrest him. It was not a memory, it was his actual voice. Palpatine was speaking to Anakin in real time about actions that had just begun to be carried out.

Wait.. LOL I thought that was a fan edit

I dont remember hearing that voice in the regular cut.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Wait.. LOL I thought that was a fan edit

I dont remember hearing that voice in the regular cut.

It was there exactly as khev described it in the theatrical cut it was first time we saw palps directly use this ability in the pt. Projecting his voice directly into anakins head like Vader did with luke. He did this to ben solo from the day he was born he even used bens own voice to manipulate his thoughts, every voice he had ever heard in his head was palps/snokes

 

[JAWS]

The problem is palps never said those exact words to him before so it couldnt be memory recall

Brainwashing is a form a mind control its the exact same thing the nazis/hydra did to bucky. The sith just do it differently then hydra, they dont strap you in a chair or zap your brain or force you to watch disturbing images. They dont need close contact. They go directly into your mind as voice in your head which can sound just like your own. Palaptine was every voice he had ever heard in his head

Killing solo weakened ben because again he was brainwashed into killing his father it wasnt his own real thoughts telling him to kill his father. If it was he would have been fully committed to the act and grown even more powerful, palpatine killed his own parents without a second thought or even batting an eyelid. Same with anakin after he stormed the temple killing all his former friends and even young children cause he was fully committed to what he was doing and in control of his actions. Even after years of brainwashing ben could still barely do it- its why snoke keeps ripping him about his weakness for solo and his family- palps cannot rid the boy of his feelings he can only influence and Control his thoughts- so he tried hard to shame and anger him into killing them by calling him weak. Ben says i know what i have to do but i dont think i have the strength to do it. In other words, i have to kill you thats what my mind (and snoke) is telling me to do and has been telling me to do my whole life, but my heart cannot do it. Just like bucky and cap except again cap was forcing bucky to kill him in cold blood ?im in it for the long haul bucky? he did not make it easy on him. Whereas han makes it easier on ben, when ben asks him for help he says ?anything son? after he basically grabs the saber and puts it near his chest so all kylo has to do is pull the trigger. Big difference in how it went down. Had han stood his ground Or had the same talk he did in tros and or forced solo to strike him down rather then make it easier for him to do, who knows what would have happened

If your dad knew your were being controlled by some lunatic sith im sure he would have done the same thing. During the conversation on the bridge Han knows his son is mentally ****ed up and doesnt like to see him suffering like this- its as if ?something? else is forcing his son to do this-at first he tries to get thru to ben but at some point he realizes snokes hold over him is too powerful. Snoke is just using you ben he says. Han was also worried what snoke would do to ben if he did not kill him there so thats why he made it easy on ben. He had already failed to kill him in the past which snoke reamed ben about earlier in the film. I just saw it as han sacrificing himself for his son in order to protect him. Once Han realized there was no chance in hell kylo was going to leave with him, if he had let han escape again he would have went back to snoke, and snoke/palps would have killed him.

Maybe thats why i like tfa so much i did not view hans death the same way as some other people and i never saw han as a deadbeat father because everything ren said about his father wasnt real it was all snoke (palps as we latter find out) manipulating/controlling bens mind from the start. Even when he was trying to convince rey how bad han was as a father he wasnt very convincing because he didnt really believe it himself deep down. Its part of the reason it didnt work on rey. I saw hans self sacrifice as an act of love not stupidity, much like vader, just in hans case his son was still under palps/snokes control and sadly his sacrifice while it saved his sons life it wasnt enough to snap him out of the mind control Palps/snoke had over him

I think, just like with Palps son being a clone or not, we are going to be on different pages. Which is fine.

I dont see it as Ben not having any free will at all. He was manipulated for sure. He had voices that were in his head (Vader and Snoke's) telling him lies and manipulating him.. But I don't see it what happened with Bucky.

He felt he had to kill Solo to achieve the full Dark Side. But its not something he wanted to do. But he thought its what he had to do to achieve power. And ultimately that is what every Sith wants is power.

There was still good in him..

Again I just dont see the Bucky aspect. I dont see someone fighting against their own will.. I see someone fighting who they think they are and who they think they should be. Granted he got that way by being screwed with. But i don't see it s a "The Devil made me do it moment"

IMO it would ruin the two scenes he had with his father.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I think, just like with Palps son being a clone or not, we are going to be on different pages. Which is fine.

I dont see it as Ben not having any free will at all. He was manipulated for sure. He had voices that were in his head (Vader and Snoke's) telling him lies and manipulating him.. But I don't see it what happened with Bucky.

He felt he had to kill Solo to achieve the full Dark Side. But its not something he wanted to do. But he thought its what he had to do to achieve power. And ultimately that is what every Sith wants is power.

There was still good in him..

Again I just dont see the Bucky aspect. I dont see someone fighting against their own will.. I see someone fighting who they think they are and who they think they should be. Granted he got that way by being screwed with. But i don't see it s a "The Devil made me do it moment"

IMO it would ruin the two scenes he had with his father.

But you did “i know what i have to do but i do not have the strength to do it” or his inability to shoot his mothers ship. The programing, propaganda and fake voice in his head cannot overide his true feelings or emotions just like they couldnt with bucky. If he truely wanted to kill his father he would have grown more powerful after doing so thats how sith work they dont get weaker and feel remorse

 

[JAWS]

It was there exactly as khev described it in the theatrical cut it was first time we saw palps directly use this ability in the pt. Projecting his voice directly into anakins head like Vader did with luke. He did this to ben solo from the day he was born he even used bens own voice to manipulate his thoughts, every voice he had ever heard in his head was palps/snokes

LOL if I ever heard that before in ROTS I must have always thought it was a call back to the conversation he had with him.

I think Ben had his own thoughts also.. He was being manipulated but again I just dont think its a Bucky thing.. Bucky was almost an out of body experience.. He could remember his victims but could do nothing to stop himself.. Ben fully embraced the Dark side after the confrontation with Luke. After that he was on the path to more power. Again he needed lies whispered in his head.

If Palps was truly every word then why not use Ben's voice at that time..

Snoke - " I am every voice"
Ben solo - " you have ever heard"
Vader - "Inside your head"

The Sith seem more about temptation and manipulation rather then mind control.

 

[JAWS]

But you did “i know what i have to do but i do not have the strength to do it” or his inability to shoot his mothers ship. The programing, propaganda and fake voice in his head cannot overide his true feelings or emotions just like they couldnt with bucky

You are assuming those voices are telling him every time.. Rather then Ben Solo having free will.

We all make choices. We all do things we have regretted.. I dont see Ben flying up on a ship his mother is in to destroy it because a voice told him to.. He is doing it because that is what the Sith / First Order do... They are trying to win the battle. When Ben sensed his mother.. He could not go threw with it.. He was never truly all evil. There was "Still good in him"


I imagine killing your parents is no easy task.. Especially if you are not fully consumed by the dark side.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

LOL if I ever heard that before in ROTS I must have always thought it was a call back to the conversation he had with him.

I think Ben had his own thoughts also.. He was being manipulated but again I just dont think its a Bucky thing.. Bucky was almost an out of body experience.. He could remember his victims but could do nothing to stop himself.. Ben fully embraced the Dark side after the confrontation with Luke. After that he was on the path to more power. Again he needed lies whispered in his head.

If Palps was truly every word then why not use Ben's voice at that time..

Snoke - " I am every voice"
Ben solo - " you hace ever heard"
Vader - "Inside your head"

The Sith seem more about temptation and manipulation rather then mind control.

Its implied with the statement “i have been every voice you have ever heard in your head” it would have been weird if they had him imitate bens voice the audience would have been confused as to who was talking lol.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

You are assuming those voices are telling him every time.. Rather then Ben Solo having free will.

We all make choices. We all do things we have regretted.. I dont see Ben flying up on a ship his mother is in to destroy it because a voice told him to.. He is doing it because that is what the Sith / First Order do... They are trying to win the battle. When Ben sensed his mother.. He could not go threw with it.. He was never truly all evil. There was "Still good in him"


I imagine killing your parents is no easy task.. Especially if you are not fully consumed by the dark side.

He had his finger over the trigger Because he had been brainwashed to kill her, his mind was telling him to do it but again his feelings for her and his heart prevented him from doing it, in this case leia couldnt help him do it like han he had to kill his mom in cold blood and its very telling that he couldn't do it. You cannot brainwash away feelings that is why it failed, bucky had no problems killing people he didnt know but as soon as cap came around he remember him and his heart overrode the mental brainwashing just like kylo. Its also explains why kylo had no problems killing people he didnt care about the mental brain washing had no resistance from inside him

 

[JAWS]

Its implied with the statement “i have been every voice you have ever heard in your head” it would have been weird if they had him imitate bens voice the audience would have been confused as to who was talking lol.

Oh I agree about the audience confusion.. I am just saying that not every voice ever was Palps.. I am sure Ben had his own thoughts.

He was brainwashed / convinced that his parents didnt love him and fooled in to thinking Skywalker wanted to kill him.. I am sure those voiced manipulated him with examples of how his parents didnt like him.. Making certain events look different then what they were.

BUT I don't buy into the Bucky narrative. He was controlled. He was pointed in a direction and told to go that way and he did without any ability to do anything else except when confronted by Cap.. but there was more to it then just seeing Cap.. he had no memory of any of his past.. Didnt even know his name..

Kylo knew his past.. Made his own choices.. "Attempted to go after snoke, Attempted to kill snoke, wanted Rey as a companion / apprentice to rule the galaxy, killed his father because he thought it would help him achieve his power"

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Ok i agree with the fact that bucky had a memory wipe in that sense my point is brainwashing only works so well when it comes to maters of heart people you love can snap you out of it thats why he had such a hard time killing his dad cause deep down he Loved his father and didnt want to kill him thats what snoke wanted and brainwashed him into doing like deep down bucky didnt want to kill cap it took seeing cap or being forced to kill him to snap him out of it.

 

[JAWS]

He had his finger over the trigger Because he had been brainwashed to kill her, his mind was telling him to do it but again his feelings for her and his heart prevented him from doing it, in this case leia couldnt help him do it like han he had to kill his mom in cold blood and its very telling that he couldn't do it. You cannot brainwash away feelings that is why it failed, bucky had no problems killing people he didnt know but as soon as cap came around he remember him and his heart overrode the mental brainwashing just like kylo. Its also explains why kylo had no problems killing people he didnt care about the mental brain washing had no resistance from inside him

Not so with Cap.. He saw caps face.. He had to be called Bucky before anything came around.

Yes Kylo thought about killing Leia and of course he wanted to do that because of the lies he had been told and yes he could not escape his feelings but IMO its no different then Anakin being fed from Palps face to face and killing Younglings to embrace the dark side and then having his feelings save Luke.

Both were manipulated.. Both made choices because of Lies (I mean he had the actual snoke and Vader voice in his head how is that different then being told by the emperor face to face) and both had trouble being fully evil because of their feelings for loved ones.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Kylo didnt make a choice again his dad made it form him in order to save him from snoke, when he made his own choice he chose not to kill his mother. Leia used the force to sever the connection palps had over ben it compeletly exhausted her life force. Had ben been truely gone and not just brainwashed that wouldnt have worked

 

[JAWS]

Ok i agree with the fact that bucky had a memory wipe in that sense my point is brainwashing only works so well when it comes to maters of heart people love can snap you out of it thats why he had such a hard time killing his dad cause deep doen he didnt want to like deep down bucky didnt want to kill cap

We agree that Ben didnt want to.. There was a struggle For sure. But I dont think it was at the time he was being told to kill his dad and he had to because of the voices.

I really believe that he was in pain and being 'Torn apart" by the light and dark side.

I really think when he says "I know what I have to do but I dont know if I have the strength to do it" could have been taken 1 of 2 ways... That he has to kill his father to be fully embraced by the dark side.. But is having issues going through with it because of the love of his father" But then we get the symbol of the sun going down and Kylo embracing the dark side.

He then in TROS says the same thing.. But it means he wants to come to the light / has to come to the light but that means confronting his guilt and admitting he was wrong and lied to. Saying that he is sorry to the father who loved him. All of that takes great strength from someone who has been on the side of evil for so long.



Anyways.. Either way.. I love this conversation.. Reminds me of the old days talking about the OT when all there was was the OT.

 

[JAWS]

Kylo didnt make a choice again his dad made it form him in order to save him from snoke, when he made his own choice he chose not to kill his mother. Leia used the force to sever the connection palps had over ben it compeletly exhausted her life force. Had ben been truely gone and not just brainwashed that wouldnt have worked

He was going out there to bring his son home.. I am a bit confused.. How is allowing Kylo to kill him saving him from snoke?

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

He was going out there to bring his son home.. I am a bit confused.. How is allowing Kylo to kill him saving him from snoke?

You didnt read my last post read it again the han parts only. Oh heck ya snoke would have killed kylo for failing to kill han again when he was right in his grasp but instead he allowed him to walk free (yet Again) because of his pitfull heart. Snoke/palps would have saw him as a failure that had the same weakness as anakin skywalker the love of his family. Han solo wasnt stupid he was teying to protect his son even if it meant basically helping his son do the unthinkable Kill him- his son sure the hell couldnt have done without hans help. He knew his son was a victim under snokes complete control. He was trying to protect him just like anakin did his son

Here


If your dad knew your were being controlled by some lunatic sith im sure he would have done the same thing. During the conversation on the bridge Han knows his son is mentally ****ed up and doesnt like to see him suffering like this- its as if “something” else is forcing his son to do this-at first he tries to get thru to ben but at some point he realizes snokes hold over him is too powerful. Snoke is just using you ben he says. Han was also worried what snoke would do to ben if he did not kill him there so thats why he made it easy on ben. He had already failed to kill him in the past which snoke reamed ben about earlier in the film. I just saw it as han sacrificing himself for his son in order to protect him. Once Han realized there was no chance in hell kylo was going to leave with him, if he had let han escape again he would have went back to snoke, and snoke/palps would have killed him.

Maybe thats why i like tfa so much i didnt interpret hans death the same way as some other people and i never viewed han as a deadbeat father because everything ren said about his father wasnt real it was all snoke (palps as we latter find out) manipulating/controlling bens mind from the start. Even when he was trying to convince rey how bad han was as a father he wasnt very convincing because he didnt really believe it himself deep down. Its part of the reason it didnt work on rey. I saw hans self sacrifice as an act of love not stupidity, much like vader, just in hans case his son was still under palps/snokes control and sadly his sacrifice while it saved his sons life it wasnt enough to snap him out of the mind control Palps/snoke had over him

 

[Prime Clone]

He was literally referring to the group of Jedi that Anakin had *just* sent to arrest him. It was not a memory, it was his actual voice. Palpatine was speaking to Anakin in real time about actions that had just begun to be carried out.

Wow, I'd always assumed that was a memory of some unseen conversation.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'm with JAWS on Kylo having control of his actions. In SW, the dark side is the metaphorical representation for making bad choices. If someone (be it Kylo, Vader, or Luke) could be brainwashed to simply act out Palpatine's wishes, there'd be no point to almost everything Yoda said in ESB.

At it's core, SW is about morality and family. The choice to do the right thing (the more difficult path) or the wrong thing (the easier path) is where the individual has the power to influence destiny. Personal accountability is at the heart of it. Brainwashing to the point of making people act against their will would be something completely different.

The value of the redemption arc (like Anakin's) is in the value of having the power to make redeeming choices. The individual is in control. The whole purpose of training to be a Jedi in the OT was to learn how to be calm and passive; to use the binding energy of the Force to resist the temptations of fear, anger, and aggression.

A fully trained Jedi Knight would be able to resist the temptations of the dark side. Such a Jedi would know not to give in to fear or hate, and not use the Force for violence and destruction. Luke graduated to that level of awareness, whereas Anakin hadn't. It's all spelled out in dialogue from ESB.

YODA: "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

Yoda felt that Luke wasn't ready because he had failed the trial in the cave. Luke acted violently (because of fear and anger). In so doing, he was following the same path as Vader. Yoda and Kenobi weren't preparing Luke to resist brainwashing (which would be impossible), they were preparing Luke to learn *control* so as to resist the consequences of giving in to dangerous emotions. Luke had tapped into the Force, but hadn't learned control to use it wisely.

KENOBI: "But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."

YODA: "Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave!"

All of this is about personal choices and accountability. Something like "brainwashing" would totally move away from the whole point of what Lucas was getting at. No matter if it's Luke, Anakin, or Kylo/Ben . . . the message of each arc is about what kinds of choices are made, and for what purpose. Each of them chose their paths (for better and worse) based on family issues. Luke shows the audience how to choose correctly. The other two are cautionary tales about how choosing poorly based on negative emotions will only corrupt your soul. Introducing brainwashing into any of this would negate the thematic takeaway, IMO.