Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I'm with JAWS on Kylo having control of his actions. In SW, the dark side is the metaphorical representation for making bad choices. If someone (be it Kylo, Vader, or Luke) could be brainwashed to simply act out Palpatine's wishes, there'd be no point to almost everything Yoda said in ESB.

At it's core, SW is about morality and family. The choice to do the right thing (the more difficult path) or the wrong thing (the easier path) is where the individual has the power to influence destiny. Personal accountability is at the heart of it. Brainwashing to the point of making people act against their will would be something completely different.

The value of the redemption arc (like Anakin's) is in the value of having the power to make redeeming choices. The individual is in control. The whole purpose of training to be a Jedi in the OT was to learn how to be calm and passive; to use the binding energy of the Force to resist the temptations of fear, anger, and aggression.

A fully trained Jedi Knight would be able to resist the temptations of the dark side. Such a Jedi would know not to give in to fear or hate, and not use the Force for violence and destruction. Luke graduated to that level of awareness, whereas Anakin hadn't. It's all spelled out in dialogue from ESB.

YODA: "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

Yoda felt that Luke wasn't ready because he had failed the trial in the cave. Luke acted violently (because of fear and anger). In so doing, he was following the same path as Vader. Yoda and Kenobi weren't preparing Luke to resist brainwashing (which would be impossible), they were preparing Luke to learn *control* so as to resist the consequences of giving in to dangerous emotions. Luke had tapped into the Force, but hadn't learned control to use it wisely.

KENOBI: "But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."

YODA: "Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave!"

All of this is about personal choices and accountability. Something like "brainwashing" would totally move away from the whole point of what Lucas was getting at. No matter if it's Luke, Anakin, or Kylo/Ben . . . the message of each arc is about what kinds of choices are made, and for what purpose. Each of them chose their paths (for better and worse) based on family issues. Luke shows the audience how to choose correctly. The other two are cautionary tales about how choosing poorly based on negative emotions will only corrupt your soul. Introducing brainwashing into any of this would negate the thematic takeaway, IMO.

The st changed all the rule so citing anything that occurred in the ot is irrelevant espcially what it comes to what the force can or cannot do. What i will say the mind brainwashing was established in the scene khev linked in the pt the only reason he didnt use it on anakin was because as i said earlier it would have alerted the jedi. He only did after his after his cover was blown. With kylo its full on brainwashing in his head the whole time they even say it in the movie

 

[JAWS]

You didnt read my last post read it again the han parts only. Oh heck ya snoke would have killed kylo for failing to kill han again when he was right in his grasp but instead he allowed him to walk free (yet Again) because of his pitfull heart. Snoke/palps would have saw him as a failure that had the same weakness as anakin skywalker the love of his family. Han solo wasnt stupid he was teying to protect his son even if it meant basically helping his son do the unthinkable Kill him- his son sure the hell couldnt have done without hans help. He knew his son was a victim under snokes complete control. He was trying to protect him just like anakin did his son

Yeah I just gotta agree to disagree.. I think you are reading too much into.. Leia tells Han to bring him home.. That was what Han was doing. Save his son.. Bring him home.. Not Go and meet him on a bridge and say "hey kill me or you will be in trouble."

With that you see him trying to save his son.. Doing something very brave for his son because his son is dangerous.

I just dont see it your way at all. And again it ruins the TROS moment if it is.

If your dad knew your were being controlled by some lunatic sith im sure he would have done the same thing. During the conversation on the bridge Han knows his son is mentally ****ed up and doesnt like to see him suffering like this- its as if ?something? else is forcing his son to do this-at first he tries to get thru to ben but at some point he realizes snokes hold over him is too powerful. Snoke is just using you ben he says. Han was also worried what snoke would do to ben if he did not kill him there so thats why he made it easy on ben. He had already failed to kill him in the past which snoke reamed ben about earlier in the film. I just saw it as han sacrificing himself for his son in order to protect him. Once Han realized there was no chance in hell kylo was going to leave with him, if he had let han escape again he would have went back to snoke, and snoke/palps would have killed him.

If it was my son.. I would go out there to try and save him.. Even though it might kill me. My thoughts of being killed just so my son can stay evil and not get in trouble by his evil master would in no way be in my thought process. Some things are worse then death.. Either I do everything to bring my son back or what is the sense??? To allow him to be a mini Hitler?? Nope.. Just dont see it that way and nothing in the movie or (I am guessing her because I would assume you would have quoted it by now) the books say that.

Its fine if its your head canon or the way you interpret it.. If it increases your enjoyment then run with it

Maybe thats why i like tfa so much i didnt interpret hans death the same way as some other people and i never viewed han as a deadbeat father because everything ren said about his father wasnt real it was all snoke (palps as we latter find out) manipulating/controlling bens mind from the start. Even when he was trying to convince rey how bad han was as a father he wasnt very convincing because he didnt really believe it himself deep down. Its part of the reason it didnt work on rey. I saw hans self sacrifice as an act of love not stupidity, much like vader, just in hans case his son was still under palps/snokes control and sadly his sacrifice while it saved his sons life it wasnt enough to snap him out of the mind control Palps/snoke had over him

I think everyone has anger towards their parents at one time or the other and if someone is whispering in your ear you can be lead to believe something that might not be true. You get punished and someone tries to convince you its because they fear you and dont love you..

So yeah.. Kylo was manipulated but never fully brought to the dark side. I think that seems perfectly legit.. But if you want to interpret it the other way thats cool also

 

[JAWS]

Wow, I'd always assumed that was a memory of some unseen conversation.

Thank goodness I wasnt the only one..

If it is Palps feeding into his head.. Well thats petty cool.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Again i disagree because if what you say is true there would be no conflict in kylo and they wouldnt say “i have been every voice you have ever heard in your heard” in the movie nor have him be unable to kill his mother because unlike his father he had to do it in cold blood without his father helping him with the act itself

And for gods sakes its not a memory palps is telling him what is about to happen in real time they had never had that conversation before so it cannot be a memory

 

[JAWS]

The st changed all the rule so citing anything that occurred in the ot is irrelevant espcially what it comes to what the force can or cannot do. What i will say the mind brainwashing was established in the scene khev linked in the pt the only reason he didnt use it on anakin was because as i said earlier it would have alerted the jedi. He only did after his after his cover was blown. With kylo its full on brainwashing in his head the whole time they even say it in the movie

I dont see the emperor doing anymore brain washing then when Luke called out to Leia from Bespin..

Both wanted / needed something.

Palps used manipulation and lies.. Anakin choose to believe him. Simple as that.



Is it brainwashing if I promise you a million dollars if you wash my car?? Nope you make a choice because it sounds like a great deal.. Even if it sounds to ood to be true.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Not but its brainwashing if your actually a voice in my head telling me to wash the car for 1 million dollars especially when some other part of me is saying wait this is wrong its bot going to happen. The emperor was never in lukes head directly only vader was

And han did go out there and try to save him but snoke had too much control over his mind so his mission changed to trying to save his son from snoke any way possible even if that meant sacrificing his own life

 

[ajp4mgs]

The st changed all the rule so citing anything that occurred in the ot is irrelevant espcially what it comes to what the force can or cannot do. What i will say the mind brainwashing was established in the scene khev linked in the pt the only reason he didnt use it on anakin was because as i said earlier it would have alerted the jedi. He only did after his after his cover was blown. With kylo its full on brainwashing in his head the whole time they even say it in the movie

Snoke/Palpatine were merely manipulating Ben Solo to turn him into Kylo Ren. It happened at a distance, but I don't understand why you think Ben/Kylo wasn't controlling his actions. He had been coerced into choosing the dark side. He officially chose it that night in the hut with Luke. As Yoda said in ESB, "forever will it dominate your destiny" once you *start* down the dark path. That's what Kylo was going through in the ST. The dark side, which he chose to embrace as a young student, influenced his choices ever since. But they were still choices.

If Kylo was being controlled by Palpatine, he would've killed Rey in Snoke's throne room. That's what Sith want: complete embracing of violence and destruction. Same as Anakin/Vader. Same as what Palps wanted from Luke.

 

[JAWS]

Again i disagree because if what you say is true there would be no conflict in kylo and they wouldnt say “i have been every voice you have ever heard in your heard” in the movie nor have him be unable to kill his mother because unlike his father he had to do it in cold blood without his father helping him with the act itself

How does Han help him kill him?? What in their conversation makes you feel that way?

Killing Han did not have the effect he thought it would.. So killing his mom was not something he could do even though he thought could or should.

And for gods sakes its not a memory palps is telling him what is about to happen in real time they had never had that conversation before so it cannot be a memory

Not sure what I said is making you think I feel that is a memory... Other then its Palps telling him all his memories of Snoke and Vader's voices recent or otherwise, were his.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Snoke/Palpatine were merely manipulating Ben Solo to turn him into Kylo Ren. It happened at a distance, but I don't understand why you think Ben/Kylo wasn't controlling his actions. He had been coerced into choosing the dark side. He officially chose it that night in the hut with Luke. As Yoda said in ESB, "forever will it dominate your destiny" once you *start* down the dark path. That's what Kylo was going through in the ST. The dark side, which he chose to embrace as a young student, influenced his choices ever since. But they were still choices.

If Kylo was being controlled by Palpatine, he would've killed Rey in Snoke's throne room. That's what Sith want: complete embracing of violence and destruction. Same as Anakin/Vader. Same as what Palps wanted from Luke.

Ok wait a minute here so speaking directly into someones mind and changing their thought process isnt brainwashing lol guys what is brainwashing then. Again brainwashing can take many forms you dont have to be electrocuted or locked in room with horrible images to be considered brainwashing. David koresh, kennith Ranier didnt do those things he mind ****ed people, he got into thier heads and rearranged their thought proceses so they did things they wouldnt normally do in under their own accord

 

[Wor-Gar]

Jabba the Hutt's kidnapped son is being held in a B'omarr? Monastery built on top of a cliff.

-Clone Wars episode, HT Anakin figure

Note the TM -- in the context of a sentence, is reminding people that this name is trademarked really important? That is the state of Star Wars today. Your analysis of story elements and logic is pointless. It is about selling merchandise.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Ok wait a minute here so speaking directly into someones mind and changing their thought process isnt brainwashing lol guys what is brainwashing then. Again brainwashing can take many forms you dont have to be electrocuted or locked in room with horrible images

I agree with you that "brainwashing" can be the right term, but just not the way you're using it. You're making Ben/Kylo seem like a zombie. I'm saying he wasn't. He was in control the whole time. But he had been manipulated into embracing dark/evil ways to resolve his conflicts. From there, he was digging himself in deeper because that's how we've *always* been told that the dark side works.

What I'm saying is that no one was using a joystick from the Unknown Regions to make Kylo do things. The seeds of the dark side were planted, then he kept acting by embracing that path. Because it's easier, and it makes him feel more powerful.

 

[JAWS]

Not but its brainwashing if your actually a voice in my head telling me to wash the car for 1 million dollars especially when some other part of me is saying wait this is wrong its bot going to happen. The emperor was never in lukes head directly only vader was

If I am a voice in your head saying its a great deal do it.. Its still not me brainwashing you. That is the "Devil made me do it" argument.. You have a choice. you can think it through. If I am a master manipulator it might be harder.

And han did go out there and try to save him but snoke had too much control over his mind so his mission changed to trying to save his son from snoke any way possible even if that meant sacrificing his own life

I would say he "died" trying to save his son. I think he was rather surprised Kylo killed him. There was no escape for han once he went out there. It was either save him or probably die trying.. and when I say die trying I dont mean dying to save Kylo from snoke.

 

[JAWS]

I agree with you that "brainwashing" can be the right term, but just not the way you're using it. You're making Ben/Kylo seem like a zombie. I'm saying he wasn't. He was in control the whole time. But he had been manipulated into embracing dark/evil ways to resolve his conflicts. From there, he was digging himself in deeper because that's how we've *always* been told that the dark side works.

What I'm saying is that no one was using a joystick from the Unknown Regions to make Kylo do things. The seeds of the dark side were planted, then he kept acting by embracing that path. Because it's easier, and it makes him feel more powerful.

This...

I am not denying that he was manipulated / brianwashed.. But he was not a being controlled.. He was making choices based on those lies that he was convinced of by ooutside forces and making other choices based on truth of his feeling feelings. Either way they were his choices.

I got in a fight in high school because of a lie.. I didnt have to.. But I choose to.

 

[JAWS]

Kylo didnt make a choice again his dad made it form him in order to save him from snoke, when he made his own choice he chose not to kill his mother. Leia used the force to sever the connection palps had over ben it compeletly exhausted her life force. Had ben been truely gone and not just brainwashed that wouldnt have worked

It took Leia / Rey / and the memory of Han Solo to pull Ben back to the light.

Leia - Love - To wake Kylo from the dark by sensing his mother and her love
Rey - Forgivness - Someone he was about to kill and had tormented for three films still forgave and healed him.
Solo - Forgiveness of self - In order to fully come back he had to forgive himself for the act of killing his father who he loved. The thing that haunted him and was the reason he could never go fully dark or come back the light. Not until Leia and Rey. They he could find a way to forgive himself if others loved and forgave him.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I agree with you that "brainwashing" can be the right term, but just not the way you're using it. You're making Ben/Kylo seem like a zombie. I'm saying he wasn't. He was in control the whole time. But he had been manipulated into embracing dark/evil ways to resolve his conflicts. From there, he was digging himself in deeper because that's how we've *always* been told that the dark side works.

What I'm saying is that no one was using a joystick from the Unknown Regions to make Kylo do things. The seeds of the dark side were planted, then he kept acting by embracing that path. Because it's easier, and it makes him feel more powerful.

Well said however thats exactly my point every thought kylo had of his mother, father and resistence was implanted in his mind by palpatine (like matrix neo download) it was not real none of it. So in that sense he was a mindless zombi acting based on snokes/palps thoughts in his mind rather then his own. This is why it was so hard to kill his parents but so easy to kill anyone else (like bucky until he recognized cap) In reality, His parents loved him, they didnt put the resistence above him, they did not resent him he went bad not of his own will but because of what snoke palps did to his mind. Most people that hear voices in thier head dont turn out ok, palps ****ed him up and it led to him not really having control over his actions. He was brainwashed into everything which is why killing han did not make him stronger like it would a normal sith who was fully in control of himself and 100% committed the the course of action he/she was taking

 

[ajp4mgs]

Well said however thats exactly my point every thought kylo had of his mother, father and resistence was implanted in his mind by palpatine (like matrix neo download) it was not real none of it. So in that sense he was a mindless zombi acting based on snokes/palps thoughts in his mind rather then his own. This is why it was so hard to kill his parents but so easy to kill anyone else (like bucky until he recognized cap) In reality, His parents loved him, they didnt put the resistence above him, they did not resent him he went bad not of his own will but because of what snoke palps did to his mind. Most people that hear voices in thier head dont turn out ok, palps ****ed him up and it led to him not really having control over his actions. He was brainwashed into everything which is why killing han did not make him stronger like it would a normal sith who was fully in control of himself and 100% committed the the course of action he/she was taking

We're actually kinda close to being on the same page. See, I just don't agree with what you were saying that Palpatine would've been controlling Ben/Kylo differently than what he did with Anakin.

In both cases, the Skywalker students were being manipulated by someone into believing lies that were meant to make their dark turn more of a certainty. To me, it doesn't matter if Palps is speaking to them in person or in their heads. It all boils down to manipulation, but not outright controlling their actions. The choices were Kylo's to make just as much as Anakin's choices were his to make.

I think your point about Kylo being fed lies is spot on. But Anakin was fed lies too. That's how it works.

 

[Prime Clone]

 

[JAWS]

Well said however thats exactly my point every thought kylo had of his mother, father and resistence was implanted in his mind by palpatine (like matrix neo download) it was not real none of it. So in that sense he was a mindless zombi acting based on snokes/palps thoughts in his mind rather then his own. This is why it was so hard to kill his parents but so easy to kill anyone else (like bucky until he recognized cap) In reality, His parents loved him, they didnt put the resistence above him, they did not resent him he went bad not of his own will because of what snoke palps did to his mind. Most people that hear voices in thier head dont turn out ok, palps ****ed him up and it led to him bot really having control over his actions. He was brainwashed into everything which is why killing han did not make him stronger like it would a normal sith

I think Kylo was someone who was destined to struggle with the dark side and could easily be manipulated. I dont think every thought of his family was based on a lie.. If it was and what he truly believed then I call BS in his feeling telling him the truth.. Not if he was fully on the dark side.

He didnt want to kill his father because there were real memories there also.. Not everything was bad.

I hate quoting comics but i assume this is where you are getting some of this.. But didnt snoke convince Kylp his parents were afraid of him and feared his power?? I am sure Kylo had some feelings about that.. But I am also sure that he knew his parents loved him.

I gotta say if the story is meant to be a bucky brainwash story then I would have completely checked out. There is no redemption story then.. Its all The devils fault. He had no control in the matter. Blah.. It defeats the purpose of him still having good in him. It defeats the purpose of every action he makes as none of them are his own accept not killing his mom and hesitating to kill his father.

I like Bucky.. And It was great to see him come back... But I never felt he was redeemed. None of it was his fault. As an audience member.. Whats to forgive??

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

We're actually kinda close to being on the same page. See, I just don't agree with what you were saying that Palpatine would've been controlling Ben/Kylo differently than what he did with Anakin.

In both cases, the Skywalker students were being manipulated by someone into believing lies that were meant to make their dark turn more of a certainty. To me, it doesn't matter if Palps is speaking to them in person or in their heads. It all boils down to manipulation, but not outright controlling their actions. The choices were Kylo's to make just as much as Anakin's choices were his to make.

I think your point about Kylo being fed lies is spot on. But Anakin was fed lies too. That's how it works.

I think that outward/external manipulation is a lot harder to pull of. Obviously people cant implant voices into peoples heads but it would seem to me that would be Way more effective then palps slow but methodical manipulation of anakin in the pt. The jedi would have notice him if he did it the same way he did with ben. Both leia and luke knew snoke was ****ing with ben they just didnt know how, not only that but palps had to count on alot of things unfolding perfectly for his outward manipulation of anakin to work

 

[JAWS]

We're actually kinda close to being on the same page. See, I just don't agree with what you were saying that Palpatine would've been controlling Ben/Kylo differently than what he did with Anakin.

In both cases, the Skywalker students were being manipulated by someone into believing lies that were meant to make their dark turn more of a certainty. To me, it doesn't matter if Palps is speaking to them in person or in their heads. It all boils down to manipulation, but not outright controlling their actions. The choices were Kylo's to make just as much as Anakin's choices were his to make.

I think your point about Kylo being fed lies is spot on. But Anakin was fed lies too. That's how it works.

This also.