Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[JAWS]

I think though outward manipulation is a lot harder to pull of. Obviously people cant implant voices into peoples heads but it would seem to me that would be Way more effective then palps slow but methodical manipulation of anakin in the pt. The jedi would have notice him if he did it the same way he did with ben. Not only that but palps had to count on alot of things unfolding perfectly for his outward manipulation of anakin to work

You can say that all of Kylo's actions were based on lies and manipulation.. Even brainwashing if you want.. But he didn't kill Han because the voices told him to. Its because he choose to believe the lies.. Every voice in his head is being taken too literally IMO. I think the lies he heard were from snoke and Vaders voice.


But hey.. Does any of this really matter.. Its not spelled out one way or the other.. What ever makes you enjoy it more... Go with it

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

You can say that all of Kylo's actions were based on lies and manipulation.. Even brainwashing if you want.. But he didn't kill Han because the voices told him to. Its because he choose to believe the lies.. Every voice in his head is being taken too literally IMO. I think the lies he heard were from snoke and Vaders voice.


But hey.. Does any of this really matter.. Its not spelled out one way or the other.. What ever makes you enjoy it more... Go with it

Let me ask this, do you think ben would have turned bad without those voices? Would he have even considered killing his parents? With anakin it wasnt just palpatine is was the jedi too that pushed him over the edge. Palps used the jedis failures to his advantage. His parents and uncle were not like the jedi anakin was basically raised by. Blame palps all you want for anakin but anakin asked yoda for help and his answer was heartless as ****. The jedi operated based on compassion for life, protectors but they forbid thier followers to feel such things when it came to their own personal lives. Anakin saw them as hypocrites and they were, but palps fed on this. He had no such advantage with ben, with ben it was controlling his thoughts but he could not control his heart eg emotions

 

[ajp4mgs]

I think that outward/external manipulation is a lot harder to pull of. Obviously people cant implant voices into peoples heads but it would seem to me that would be Way more effective then palps slow but methodical manipulation of anakin in the pt. The jedi would have notice him if he did it the same way he did with ben. Both leia and luke knew snoke was ****ing with ben they just didnt know how, not only that but palps had to count on alot of things unfolding perfectly for his outward manipulation of anakin to work

Well, let's examine young Ben Solo hearing Darth Vader's voice (btw, the idea of hearing him with the respirator is still hilarious to me ).

If he's hearing his grandfather speak to him, wouldn't that be essentially just a conversation of sorts? Sure, it's probably creepy - but maybe not for a Jedi who knows this sort of thing happens. I mean, it's not like Ben would suddenly believe that he and Vader share the same mind. So, Kylo may have been at least somewhat willing to take guidance from Vader. And it could've been "Vader" who introduced Ben to "Snoke."

Like any young person, Ben could either accept what he was being told and follow that guidance, or reject it because he thinks about it and realizes that he's being used. By believing what the voices of Vader and Snoke were telling him, Ben Solo was *choosing* not to shut them out. So, on some level he was willing to believe the lies he was being told.

I bet you if they did a series based on Luke training Ben, it would probably play out much the same as Anakin training with Kenobi. There'd be frustration over not being allowed to become more powerful more quickly. There'd be resentment and distrust. He'd start feeling unloved or unwanted because his parents sent him away to Luke's and weren't as much a part of his life as he'd want them to be.

All of these things, even without Snoke/Palpatine's influence could've led Ben Solo into thinking that his dad sucked for not being around, his uncle sucked for not trusting him more, and his mom didn't care enough to train him herself. Feelings like abandonment would be very possible, IMO. In a story like this, these kinds of emotions are used to explain how a good kid goes bad. In SW, it's magnified when used by a darksider to convert the kid to evil. Whether it's in person or in his head is more of a distinction than it is a difference. I don't think it changes anything fundamentally.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Without the voices in kylos head he never turns bad because like i said in my last post it wasnt just palps that turned anakin it was the jedi too. But kylo wasnt raised by those jedi he was raised by parents that loved him

Forget last jedi competely if you consider then you assume luke would actually try to kill his sisters son in his sleep. In what world do you believe luke would do that based on his character in the ot. Its the same guy who wouldnt even kill his evil father when both ben and yoda were telling him that was the only way. Ok palps was influencing him luke in that moment, if palps had that power why didnt he use it on luke earlier its all ********. Lets discuss tfa and tros cause again tlj is elseworlds

 

[JAWS]

Let me ask this, do you think ben would have turned bad without those voices? Would he have even considered killing his parents? With anakin it wasnt just palpatine is was the jedi too that pushed him over the edge. Palps used the jedis failures to his advantage. His parents and uncle were not like the jedi anakin was basically raised by. Blame palps all you want for anakin but anakin asked yoda for help and his answer was heartless as ****. The jedi operated based on compassion for life, protectors but they forbid thier followers to feel such things when it came to their own personal lives. Anakin saw them as hypocrites and they were, but palps fed on this. He had no such advantage with ben, with ben it was controlling his thoughts but he could not control his heart eg emotions

You think Anakin would have went bad without the Emperor?? I don't. He may have been troubled but it was the emperor and his poison words telling Anakin all the time that he was the most gifted, deserving, and powerful jedi.. Anakin began to feel that way. He did fear loss.. Which the emperor again manipulated into happening.. Putting him with padme.

You think those things he says about Obi Wan to Padme in AOTC were just his own words??


No Ben would have not gone evil without something leading him that way. At least I would not think so.

He needed his dark half to have a push..

You say Palps uses the failures of the Jedi to his advantage... Do you know any perfect parents?? I am sure he used poor choices they made to his advantage to turn Ben. I bet when Ben Solo has a fit its a lot worse then your average 5 year old.. I would imagine it would be something scary to see and there may have been conversations he heard..

Again I am not saying that Ben was not lied to, brainwashed and mind ****ed.. I am saying that he still saw the truth also.. But I am sure he lived by his emotions.. After all It ran in the family.. He took the easy way. The voices said things he liked and manipulated what he saw.. I am willing to bet his whole life with his family was not all perceived as bad. But having fits and having someone lie to him made it easier to choose the dark path which already is an easier path to take.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I do the emperor didnt do much but point out the jedi’s hypocrisy because he didnt want to give himself away. Thats how he turned anakin to question the jedi, remember the opera scene when anakin says the sith are afraid to lose thier power and he says “and the jedi are not”. He used the jedi’s rules against them which planted the seed in anakin that maybe the jedi are evil, they wanted me to let my mother die and now yoda tells me to let my wife die in no uncertain terms all for what, if you have the power to save someone and someone else tells you to let them die what kind of person are they. Imagine if doctors did that. The jedi had anakin fight wars all over the galaxy in the name of compassion but he They forbade him to use compassion to save the people he cared about personally

 

[JAWS]

I do the emperor didnt do much but point out the jedi’s hypocrisy because he didnt want to give himself away. Thats how he turned anakin to question the jedi, remember the opera scene when anakin says the sith are afraid to lose thier power and he says “and the jedi are not”. He used the jedi’s rules against them which planted the seed in anakin that maybe the jedi are evil, they wanted me to let my mother die and now yoda tells me to let my wife die in no uncertain terms all for what, if you have the power to save someone and someone else tells you to let them die what kind of person are they. Imagine if doctors did that. The jedi had anakin fight wars all over the galaxy in the name of compassion but he They forbade him to use compassion to save the people he cared about personally

So you think that was the only times The Emperor was feeding lies to Anakin was in ROTS ??

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

So you think that was the only times The Emperor was feeding lies to Anakin was in ROTS ??

He was telling lies the whole time but yes he didnt say **** in atoc really to get anakin to do anything beside tell Yoda anakin is perfect for the mission to protect padme because he wanted him to fall in love with her to set him on the path to becoming sith (eg selfishness and possession). Thats why he was so concerned about Padme’s safety in atoc

 

[Prime Clone]

Did Snoke have any autonomy or was he merely a vessel for Palpatine?

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Did Snoke have any autonomy or was he merely a vessel for Palpatine?

Purely a vessel according to tros, which is why that huge tros recon that i discussed earlier today makes absolutely no sense at all. Makes palps look like he has dementia and destroys his actions in the pt, ot and even parts of the st lol

 

[Prime Clone]

Purely a vessel according to tros, which is why that huge tros recon that i discussed earlier today makes absolutely no sense at all. Makes palps look like he has dementia and destroys his actions in the pt, ot and even parts of the st lol

Ah, will have to go back and check that out.

Re ROTS, I know Palps could see the future but he was still taking a calculated risk putting his life in Anakin?s hands. Mace *was* beating him and *would* have killed him (tho as we now know, he tends not to stay dead).

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Ah, will have to go back and check that out.

Re ROTS, I know Palps could see the future but he was still taking a calculated risk putting his life in Anakin?s hands. Mace *was* beating him and *would* have killed him (tho as we now know, he tends not to stay dead).

I agree with everything you just said there. I was strictly speaking on behalf of the tros retcon of palps wanting to transfer himself into a vessal dating back to his rots days. It doesnt make any sense cause he had too many opportunities to do that and stopped them each time himself. Mace himself made a good host candidate , since he was about to strike palps down in anger before anakin intervened

 

[Prime Clone]

Speaking of ?getting in one?s head? I?ve never had a problem with Luke momentarily wanting to kill Ben. He obviously had a vision of what Ben would become and thought it would better for him, and the galaxy, if he was dead. Maybe Palps had a hand in it but I don?t think so.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Speaking of ?getting in one?s head? I?ve never had a problem with Luke momentarily wanting to kill Ben. He obviously had a vision of what Ben would become and thought it would better for him, and the galaxy, if he was dead. Maybe Palps had a hand in it but I don?t think so.

I could possibly see that if ben engaged him in a fight but not while his nephew was sleeping (thats how palpatine killed his master RJ is so clever lol), he cared about family especially leia to much to do that to her son. The whole reason she sent him to luke was to help ben cause snoke/palps had already got to him, she sensed a dark presence around her son, and hoped luke could help ben because he had already demonstrated he could help someone like ben- he was able to bring their evil father back to the light when no other jedi believed that was possible. If she thought luke was the type of person that would give up on ben so easily, and then even consider killing her son while he was sleepIng (sith style) she wouldnt have sent him there.

This is the same guy who refused to kill the most evil bastard in the universe who had committed horrible atrocities. There is no chance in hell he would have an unprovoked moment of weakness like that, he wouldnt even think of killing anyone in their sleep especially his nephew, only an evil ****in coward like palps would do that- he already knew there was darkness in ben because thats the reason Leia sent ben to him to begin with. Ben hadnt done anything to act on that darkness as of that point, he hadnt killed anyone-its just not believable or consistent with lukes character at all.

More importantly he had already suceeded in turning vader back which should have reinforced his belief that he could help ben- all that he had learned about the darkside, tossing his saber aside cause he refused to kill or be tricked into killing his father. ?Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand?. He learned and then in tlj as yoda would say ?forget everything you have learned you did, untrue to yourself you were?

que doomcock gif force choking RJ, slamming his body into the ceiling, and slicing him in half with his saber all in one graceful motion

 

[JAWS]

He was telling lies the whole time but yes he didnt say **** in atoc really to get anakin to do anything beside tell Yoda anakin is perfect for the mission to protect padme because he wanted him to fall in love with her to set him on the path to becoming sith (eg selfishness and possession). Thats why he was so concerned about Padme’s safety in atoc

I am not saying he said anything on screen.. I am thinking since the Emperor was keeping an eye on him there would have been other interactions through the years.. Anakin's complaints to Padme sound like some things that the emperor could have been encouraging him to believe.

In Sith Palps talks about how Anakin told him about the sand people.. This also lead me to believe there had been many conversations though the years.

Of course this is all assumption on my part.. But it helps make more sense of Anakin fall so quickly to the dark side if there had been more going on behind the scenes for many years.

 

[user 64404]

I agree with everything you just said there. I was strictly speaking on behalf of the tros retcon of palps wanting to transfer himself into a vessal dating back to his rots days. It doesnt make any sense cause he had too many opportunities to do that and stopped them each time himself. Mace himself made a good host candidate , since he was about to strike palps down in anger before anakin intervened

Dude i already said to you why Palpatine could not transfer himself into Mace, Mace had a special force shield against all dark force users. He was not going to strike Palpatine in ANGER, he was until the end a lightside user with the hability to use dark side powers without falling into darkness, he had full control of himself in that fight.

 

[user 64404]

I could possibly see that if ben engaged him in a fight but not while his nephew was sleeping (thats how palpatine killed his master RJ is so clever lol), he cared about family especially leia to much to do that to her son. The whole reason she sent him to luke was to help ben cause snoke/palps had already got to him, she sensed a dark presence around her son, and hoped luke could help ben because he had already demonstrated he could help someone like ben- he was able to bring their evil father back to the light when no other jedi believed that was possible. If she thought luke was the type of person that would give up on ben so easily, and then even consider killing her son while he was sleepIng (sith style) she wouldnt have sent him there.

This is the same guy who refused to kill the most evil bastard in the universe who had committed horrible atrocities, so he wouldnt kill his nephew while he was sleeping cause he sensed darkness in him esp when thats the reason Leia sent ben to him to begin with. He already knew there was darkness in ben thats why ben was there. Ben had done nothing to act on that darkness as of that point, he hadnt killed anyone-its just not believable or consistent with lukes character at all.

More importantly he had already suceeded in turning vader back which should have reinforced his belief that he could help ben- all that he had learned about the darkside, tossing his saber aside cause he refused to kill or be tricked into killing his father. ?Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand?. He learned and then in tlj as yoda would say ?forget everything you have learned you did, untrue to yourself you were?

que doomcock gif force choking RJ, slamming his body into the ceiling, and slicing him in half with his saber all in one graceful motion

Luke became a Jedi from the prequels, he became arrogant and blind just like Yoda in the prequels, Palpatine in the Sequel is stronger and luke is weaker, thats why Palpatine Mind**** him into killing Kylo.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Dude i already said to you why Palpatine could not transfer himself into Mace, Mace had a special force shield against all dark force users. He was not going to strike Palpatine in ANGER, he was until the end a lightside user with the hability to use dark side powers without falling into darkness, he had full control of himself in that fight.

Sorry bud you lost me there. Re-watch revenge of the sith mace had anger in his eyes as he raised his saber to kill palps, even anakin felt that. Palps hatred was filling the room, it impacted mace and anakin. Did you see the look on anakins face as soon as he stepped foot in that room he was pale both him in mace were in a trance- it was all that dark energy palps was unleashing in lighting form all his hatred on mace (which he was deflecting but it was enraging him) After Mace beat him (and he did beat him) he did lose it, he was going to slaughter palps in anger, palps was defenseless at that point which is why anakin intervened no Its not the jedi way You cant i need him to teach me that power to save padme. Palps baited anakin into it too but he also knew mace was consumed by hatred at that point and anakin would stop him once he saw mace try to slaughter him in cold blood. It was the final straw that blurred the lines between jedi and sith in Anakins mind

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

I am not saying he said anything on screen.. I am thinking since the Emperor was keeping an eye on him there would have been other interactions through the years.. Anakin's complaints to Padme sound like some things that the emperor could have been encouraging him to believe.

In Sith Palps talks about how Anakin told him about the sand people.. This also lead me to believe there had been many conversations though the years.

Of course this is all assumption on my part.. But it helps make more sense of Anakin fall so quickly to the dark side if there had been more going on behind the scenes for many years.

Its very possible that palps was influencing anakin offscreen to some degree during the atoc time period. Just remember from the time atoc ended Anakin was away fighting in the clone wars he had relatively little to no contact with palps really until the events of revenge of the sith- the intro to that movie is literally the first time he had seen palps in years. All palps really did was pretend to be a friend to anakin in his early years in order to gain his trust. He did most of his manipulation after the war during the rots time frame

 

[user 64404]

Sorry bud you lost me there. Re-watch revenge of the sith mace had anger in his eyes as he raised his saber to kill palps, even anakin felt that. Palps hatred was filling the room, it impacted mace and anakin. Did you see the look on anakins face as soon as he stepped foot in that room he was pale both him in mace were in a trance- it was all that dark energy palps was unleashing in lighting form all his hatred on mace (which he was deflecting but it was enraging him) After Mace beat him (and he did beat him) he did lose it, he was going to slaughter palps in anger, palps was defenseless at that point which is why anakin intervened no Its not the jedi way You cant i need him to teach me that power to save padme. Palps baited anakin into it too but he also knew mace was consumed by hatred at that point and anakin would stop him once he saw mace try to slaughter him in cold blood. It was the final straw that blurred the lines between jedi and sith in Anakins mind

Mace fights like that, he absorbs dark side energy and gets stronger, its his style. He had full control, he simbolised how lost the jedi were in the prequel, they were blind about their duties and responsibilities. As a Jedi he should kill the sith, but as a politician Palpatine should be on trials(but as Mace knows Palpatine owns the senate).
His saber form: Vaapad was described as more than a fighting style; it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning. The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming themselves into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent