Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[JAWS]

Well the real reason why this thread hasn?t died is cause khev and jye couldn?t let it go. If you notice the conversation is dead but one of them brings up the PT and then it causes discussion. Or they just bring up something like steal books. Or khev post his doomcock video prentending that?s not him.

If it wasn?t for them this thread would of died long ago. We aren?t really talking about the movie just the popularity and debating on why it sucks

Soooo the thread went silent for awhile... And then the Boyega subject was brought up.... Discussion about him was going on and then Ducky complained about having a to look at a poster from the ST in the background of a coworkers workspace.. Then Kev talked about his kid liking the ST and the legacy that the films might have on a younger generation and then peeps started bitching at Khev for daring to say such a thing.

So I would say this thread is about 50/50 of who keeps it going and who starts the PT vs ST war..

By all means start a PT thread so I can go there and ***** about it

 

[a-dev]

I can accept Star Wars has become fairly trash pop-culture. But what really gets me is Star Trek turning into trash now. But that is a whole different topic.

Unfortunately I have to agree. I wish we could take today's TV production values and just overlay them onto the older shows somehow, that'd be Star Trek heaven. They're the only positive to be taken from Discovery and Picard. And forget about the Abrams-verse movies. The 09 film initially seemed cool but oh boy did it not take long for me to see how shallow that one was, just like the abominations that followed.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I can accept Star Wars has become fairly trash pop-culture. But what really gets me is Star Trek turning into trash now. But that is a whole different topic.

I find it interesting that the same man killed both.

JJ knows very well how to navigate Hollywood; what works, what sells to the higher ups, and he manages to get this vision through corporate America... the problem is that view is rarely what people want to see. It looks great, slick and professional as a Coke commercial... and that's essentially what it is.

 

[hellgrammite00]

I find it interesting that the same man killed both.

JJ knows very well how to navigate Hollywood; what works, what sells to the higher ups, and he manages to get this vision through corporate America... the problem is that view is rarely what people want to see. It looks great, slick and professional as a Coke commercial... and that's essentially what it is.

Image over substance, yep. I actually thought Star Trek Beyond was decent. While it has all the CGI spectacle, there are some elements of good writing and characters interacting in fun situations. I would argue its better than all the TNG movies.

I think the big issue nowadays is poor writing (Abrams is a solid director, he just can't write anything decent.) But poor writing isn't exactly correct. It is writing that has to seek lower common denominators because the goal is to attract other markets (China.) I get it. Star Wars and even Star Trek have to attract the fast and furious crowd, or try and bring in elements of Game of Thrones (bring in a lot of drama, but write in a way that is going to make Kardashian fans entertained.)

All...about...the....benjamins.

But hope is not lost. Look at Fury Road. Basically the Road Warrior, but enhanced by modern filming techniques. And it didn't hurt it...if anything it improved it.

I think you get people who actually like science to write some Star Trek scripts...we can see great things.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I felt JJ really marginalized the core of what Star Trek is: these three heroes, representing different aspects of humanity, coming together when humanity is being challenged. Star Trek had more heart than some people give it credit for. The sci-fi elements are there but it was always those characters and what they represent and how they come together that matter to audiences I believe. Educating Spock, for instance. The fact that Spock is so repressed for example is why so many people love him; waiting for those moments where he discovers what it truly means to be human, and then choosing his way.

JJ jacked up the sci-fi-action-adventure and made the Star Trek crew feel like a whole different animal. It became Star Wars meets Star Trek, which I think is the total wrong way to go. They should have gone the opposite -- go more dramatic, more emotion with their storylines. Higher stakes but in an emotional way. They should have gone Game of Thrones instead of Star Wars.

 

[hellgrammite00]

I felt JJ really marginalized the core of what Star Trek is: these three heroes, representing different aspects of humanity, coming together when humanity is being challenged. Star Trek had more heart than some people give it credit for. The sci-fi elements are there but it was always those characters and what they represent and how they come together that matter to audiences I believe. Educating Spock, for instance. The fact that Spock is so repressed for example is why so many people love him; waiting for those moments where he discovers what it truly means to be human, and then choosing his way.

JJ jacked up the sci-fi-action-adventure and made the Star Trek crew feel like a whole different animal. It became Star Wars meets Star Trek, which I think is the total wrong way to go. They should have gone the opposite -- go more dramatic, more emotion with their storylines. Higher stakes but in an emotional way. They should have gone Game of Thrones instead of Star Wars.

I think the ST TV shows are going more 'Game of Thrones', which I counter is even worse. All these relationships that are not interesting, and only there because generic TV viewers expect it. Star Trek is about some core characters and humanity, yes. But the fun dynamic is encountering fascinating and creative sci-fi elements, and how they figure how to deal with it. Because humanity has evolved so much, the dilemmas are now about how to deal with cosmic beings, truly alien concepts, and finding ways to continue to evolve oneself.

You don't need much drama in Star Trek. You need enough to get invested in the characters, but you don't need Spock and Uhura having relationship spats. Movie and TV Trek doesn't have time for that. It isn't adding anything.

Gina Carano and the Mandalorian had better chemistry drama than both new Star Trek and Star Wars combined. That is all the drama you need. People in a situation, and communicating with a look (hell one of them has a helmet covering his face and can still deliver the goods....cause the film making is solid!) When you get a look of Gina Carano, and she looks concerned, you really believe it. I don't need to have characters in a sci-fi show talking about feelings for 10 minutes, or Baby Yoda and Gina talking around some sexual tension they are having...because he is clearly an older man.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I think the ST TV shows are going more 'Game of Thrones', which I counter is even worse. All these relationships that are not interesting, and only there because generic TV viewers expect it. Star Trek is about some core characters and humanity, yes. But the fun dynamic is encountering fascinating and creative sci-fi elements, and how they figure how to deal with it. Because humanity has evolved so much, the dilemmas are now about how to deal with cosmic beings, truly alien concepts, and finding ways to continue to evolve oneself.

...and how that relates to 'being human'. Almost every episode of the original Trek involve the aspect of what it is to be human. That's what I mean. That core spine seems to have disappeared from the JJ Trek anyway. I haven't kept up with any of the tv shows in many years.

But if Star Trek becomes focused on sci-fi tech and encountering aliens/monsters then it will become increasingly boring I believe without exploring the relationships. When I say Game of Thrones, I mean the challenges between family members. I like alien encounters and sci-fi as much as anybody, maybe more, but if it doesn't impact the relationships, if it isn't based on an emotional core, then it is hollow and doesn't resonate any further than the latest comic book villain to threaten the Avengers.

 

[ironwez20]

Soooo the thread went silent for awhile... And then the Boyega subject was brought up.... Discussion about him was going on and then Ducky complained about having a to look at a poster from the ST in the background of a coworkers workspace.. Then Kev talked about his kid liking the ST and the legacy that the films might have on a younger generation and then peeps started bitching at Khev for daring to say such a thing.

So I would say this thread is about 50/50 of who keeps it going and who starts the PT vs ST war..

By all means start a PT thread so I can go there and ***** about it

Lol you lose everytime we get into a pt war tho sooooooo. And it?s not 50/50 I?ve seen it. Come on now

 

[hellgrammite00]

If you watch any of the TV shows now, they def. have drama.

But like special effects, the drama is soap opera like. Relationships forming for no reasons, and situations developed with no payoff...just to pad run time.

At least with Abrams films, I can turn my mind off sometimes and admire the CGI. With modern Trek shows (and possibly future Star Wars), characters will murder somebody one episode, be ready to be convicted of murder, and the next episode falling in love with a captain and we forget what happened the previous episode, because every episode needs a dramatic character moment or love interest, and love concurs internal story logic. You could argue Rose/Finn was the just the first taste.

I agree, you are talking about good drama. Like when that admiral takes over the enterprise to kill the doomsday machine, and the crew is trying to figure out how to deal with a man that obviously has lost his mind a little.

 

[Prime Clone]

Look at Fury Road. Basically the Road Warrior, but enhanced by modern filming techniques.

Felt more like a Thunderdome reimagining to me, but I guess it does have that "one long pursuit" theme.

 

[JAWS]

Lol you lose everytime we get into a pt war tho sooooooo. And it?s not 50/50 I?ve seen it. Come on now

First off... You guys never prove anything about the PT... Never ever.. Sorry. You just tell us that yeah they suck but they are better then the ST

2nd.. The point of my post was not who wins or loses. But that ST haters / PT defenders get the arguments going about these films and not just Khev and Jye. I was just was refuting your that they always bad mouth the PT and then the PT defenders have to come and defend the PT (Which you admit suck but still argue for them)

 

[abake]

On the subject of Star Trek (far more palatable than the ST), I must say I don't hate the Abrams movies. I find them actually quite entertaining (except for maybe Into Darkness, that one's a bit iffy...), and I really like Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Uhura, I think they all do a great job in their roles and have great chemistry/dynamics. Sulu and Chekov are so-so, which is a shame, since Sulu was a really cool character. And Yelchin's death was really unfortunate. Scotty on the other hand... him and his little friend are the one thing I frigging hate about Abrams' Star Trek. That idiot Simon Pegg plays Scotty for laughs while Scotty had some comic relief moments in the original series and movies, it was no more than any of the others. And that idiot Pegg has the gall to say he understands what Trek is all about.
Anyway, I still believe Trek is best suited for a series format, where you can see the relationships evolve and build. The TOS and TNG movies worked (some of the time) because the relationships had already been cemented and you knew the characters and the universe, so you could go into these big adventures building on solid foundations. At any rate, I hope (although it seems highly unlikely) that we get more Abrams-verse movies, I want this crew to have a decent send-off.

 

[Prime Clone]

First off... You guys never prove anything about the PT... Never ever.. Sorry. You just tell us that yeah they suck but they are better then the ST

I thought we'd all pretty much agreed the PT had better world building and a better story, and the ST had better acting and directing?

On the subject of Star Trek (far more palatable than the ST), I must say I don't hate the Abrams movies. I find them actually quite entertaining (except for maybe Into Darkness, that one's a bit iffy...), and I really like Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Uhura, I think they all do a great job in their roles and have great chemistry/dynamics.

As stated in this thread I rate three out of four of J.J.'s "Star" movies as good to great. I actually put STID in that category, which I know is an unpopular opinion.

TFA may have been derivative of ANH, but it was still a great setup for the ST. If the ST had been more cohesive it might have rivalled the OT. TLJ was great in its own right but more like a third-parter than a second-parter.

 

[JAWS]

I thought we'd all pretty much agreed the PT had better world building and a better story, and the ST had better acting and directing?

Yep.... Thats what I have said pretty much since forever... The whole pick your poison thing.... Apparently my arguments were somehow getting destroyed with regards to the PT and they have not only a decent story and good world building but they are also the pinnacle of directing, acting, and dialogue.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Yep.... the PT ... not only a decent story and good world building but they are also the pinnacle of directing, acting, and dialogue.

WHAT!!!???







This is how you spread misinformation.

 

[Prime Clone]

Many of Lucas' creative choices are considered mistakes when they're actually quite deliberate. For instance, the clunky dialog is straight out of the old SF serials. Obviously it still could have been delivered better.

 

[abake]

A couple of thoughts on the PT, irrespective of its merits.

I don't judge Anakin and Padm?'s romance in EpII as harshly as most because I believe there's two interesting things to take into account:
- The overall awkwardness and cringe-inducing aspects of it: isn't that what adolescent love is like? I know Romeo and Juliet makes for better drama when depicting adolescent love, but teens actually act very silly and say silly things and are very awkward when they fall in love. So, while it doesn't necessarily make for good viewing, it's sort of accurate. And yes, the acting isn't the best, but still... I can forgive a lot of it by looking at how actual teens act in those situations.
- Anakin's awkward language: doesn't it make sense that he expresses himself so awkwardly, that he chooses his words so poorly? After all, he's only been around a bunch of overbearing, self-centred, pompous Jedi for most of his life. It makes sense that he uses that stilted and awkward language when trying to put into words how he feels.

Now, I know I'm really reaching here but looking at it that way, the whole cringe worthiness of the "love story" doesn't seem so terrible to me. Of course, it could've been better written, better directed, better acted, etc... but it is what it is.

The other thing that I find interesting is how Lucas really tried to set up a perfect way to appeal to everybody (failing miserably in the process in the eyes of most) in EpI: there's little Ani for little kids to identify with, young Obi Wan for the teen audience, Qui Gon for the old farts and Amidala/Padm? for the girls. He even managed to put a token minority in with Captain Panaka... and, well... Jar Jar and the Neimodians...

 

[abake]

Many of Lucas' creative choices are considered mistakes when they're actually quite deliberate. For instance, the clunky dialog is straight out of the old SF serials. Obviously it still could have been delivered better.

Yeah, I think a lot of what Lucas did was very deliberate. Doesn't mean it translated terribly well to the screen, or worked every time, but then again, a lot of his unpopular choices are what got us Star Wars in the first place.

 

[ironwez20]

First off... You guys never prove anything about the PT... Never ever.. Sorry. You just tell us that yeah they suck but they are better then the ST

2nd.. The point of my post was not who wins or loses. But that ST haters / PT defenders get the arguments going about these films and not just Khev and Jye. I was just was refuting your that they always bad mouth the PT and then the PT defenders have to come and defend the PT (Which you admit suck but still argue for them)

No no no. The thread dies and either khev and jye kick then PT hornets nest and we go round in a circle. Happens all the time buddy.

Also yes. Any arguments comparing the PT and ST has been shot down allllll the time. The whole muh OT element isn?t enough to save it
Yea the pt sucks but ROTs is still amazing g and they have memorable and amazing elements to them. The ST has nothing memorable about it. No music , characters or moments so yea I?ll always defend ROTS cause it?s much better than that corporate checklist trilogy

 

[aussiebottt]

First off... You guys never prove anything about the PT... Never ever.. Sorry. You just tell us that yeah they suck but they are better then the ST

Well firstly midnight sessions on opening day - ROTS had them but TROS did not. And on opening day ROTS was packed out but TROS was only half full.

Secondly, toy sales. ROTS toys still popular to this day but ST toys not doing anything but shelf warming.