Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[jye4ever]

Lucas had a solid foundation for ANH but no real plan for how the characters related to one another (literally) or how he was going to wrap the Saga for the OT (he didn't even plan for it to *be* an OT since he initially thought that the story would continue past three films.)

Lucas had a clear picture of the lava duel for Episode III but otherwise was just pulling crap out of his ass on the fly to lead up to it with TPM and AOTC which then shoehorned himself into a lightning fast and awkward turn when Anakin finally had to become Darth Vader.

Abrams and Kasdan had no clear picture of how Rey's story would end and who she was related to (EXACTLY like Luke's situation at the outset of the OT) but at least they knew it'd be another trilogy with a big lineage reveal (or non-reveal in TLJ's case) and them defeating the bad guys in Act III.

It's all the same basic planning/lack of planning. The "aha we now have documented proof of why the ST failed more than any of the previous films!" is just regurgitated blathering of Fandom Menace groupthink. All three trilogies could have benefited from more forethought and some additional rewrites. There's pros and cons to every approach and if there was some universal method for making great films then duh every film that has ever been made would be great, but that isn't the case.

The way I see it most complainers are just piggy backing off the complaints of others without giving much of the complaints any rational thought. The ST that we have as is could have just as easily been the result of one man writing them all in advance and then directing them all himself. As has been pointed out many times there is ample evidence, even if it was pure coincidence in reality, that Rey was a Palpatine all along, especially going off her behavior in her first duel with Kylo on Starkiller Base. Or the mirror cave in TLJ where she asks it to show her who her parents are and she just sees a giant line of Rey "clones," which her grandfather was literally revealed to be. Hell this "make it up as they go" trilogy has less continuity gaffs than the OT!

"No Khev TLJ was clearly directed by a guy who hated TFA and then TROS was clearly directed by a guy who hated TLJ." Whether that's true or not (I don't believe it is) that doesn't mean it would have been any different under Lucas. Look at the number of times he has tried to "fix" previous entries that fans complained about, entries that he himself directed!

"All of TPM hinges on Jar Jar, if we can make him work it'll be great." *TPM is released, fans despise Jar Jar* "Uh, yeah better reduce Jar Jar's screentime to almost nil for Episodes II and III. Same with the midichlorian talk."

LOTR is often elevated (rightly so) as the crowning achievement of planning everything in advance. But even doing so Peter Jackson still couldn't figure out how to include the death of one of the trilogy's *biggest* villains on screen in the theatrical releases! How the hell do you not figure that out? Crazy. And then despite filming the entire Hobbit trilogy at once he still didn't even know what kind of dragon Smaug was going to be (two or four legged) until *after* AUJ was released. Kind of a major detail there.

Because again there's just no sure fire way to plotting a film trilogy when you factor in all the normal real life circumstances (budgets, actor and filmmaker availability, etc.) Yes I do acknowledge that the ST could have benefited from some additional rewrites and restructuring. But let's say that they took an entire extra year to flesh out the entire trilogy in advance and TFA came out Christmas of 2016 instead of 2015 and they then followed George's tradition of releasing a new episode every three years instead of two. Well guess what Carrie wouldn't have even appeared in the second film and the third film would have gone straight to video because of the dumb pandemic. No "plan" is foolproof.

"But I hate the ST and wish they were never made and still wish they did something different because anything would have been better than what we got." Yeah well tough, woulda shoulda coulda, lol. If you don't like the end result then dismiss them from your canon and call it a day.

Yay thread is open weeeee

Oh look here is Khev dishing out a heaping of savage lol

 

[jye4ever]

What could have been had Lucas filmed the ST in 97

 

[ironwez20]

Yay thread is open weeeee

Oh look here is Khev dishing out a heaping of savage lol

Nothing he said was savage

 

[jye4ever]

Don’t you go having savage envy now lol

 

[Prime Clone]

As has been said several times it was no worse of a "plan" than what we got with the OT. Characters' identities and genealogies changing from film to film also just like the OT and so forth.

At least it had "newness" going for it the first time round. And I'm a sequel apologist!

In that latest interview JJ says there are pros and cons of having a plan, but admits that overall it's an advantage.

Remember Daisy Ridley said they hadn't settled on Rey's back story even while the cameras were rolling on TROS. Hence Wookieepedia (and even some official reference guides) have her as the daughter of a clone.

On a side note, I have a new theory on how the chunk of Death Star broke orbit with Endor and splashed down on Kef Bir. Palpatine's pure Force energy going down the reactor shaft acted like a giant jet exhaust that propelled it away from Endor's gravity and into Kef Bir's!

 

[jal76]

There you go, finally some semblance of an honest and rational critique. You didn't think the movies were "good" so you call out the process in making them as wrong even though they followed the process of arguably the greatest and certainly the most impactful trilogy of all time, even to the point of plotting out their films *more than George plotted out the OT.* That cannot be denied or argued. If you do then you're being willfully obtuse or are just in denial of the facts.
.

But this takes me back to my original point.
If you?ve read J.W. Rinzler?s excellent books on the OT, I?m assuming you have, then you know that Lucas didn?t really have much of a plan.
Sequels were considered to be a losing gamble in those days so it?s understandable.
As Ironwez pointed out, there is no excuse today not to have a plan when you announce a TRILOGY of films which was something that Lucas did not do back in 1977.
Back in 2012 on the day Disney announced its purchase of Lucasfilm they announced the ST in the same announcement.
The reason everyone jumps on the lack of plan is because while it?s common for movie series to have inconsistencies, this is the first time movies in the same trilogy have blatantly contradicted one another so glaringly.
You can literally see the filmmaker?s arguing with each other through their films.
What a mess.
For that reason alone, the ST is, in my opinion, the absolute WORST movie trilogy in the history of the medium.
I?m not being hyperbolic either, I truly believe that allowing the filmmakers to fight with each other, with the audience caught in the middle, was movie-making malpractice.

 

[jye4ever]

But this takes me back to my original point.
If you?ve read J.W. Rinzler?s excellent books on the OT, I?m assuming you have, then you know that Lucas didn?t really have much of a plan.
Sequels were considered to be a losing gamble in those days so it?s understandable.
As Ironwez pointed out, there is no excuse today not to have a plan when you announce a TRILOGY of films which was something that Lucas did not do back in 1977.
Back in 2012 on the day Disney announced its purchase of Lucasfilm they announced the ST in the same announcement.
The reason everyone jumps on the lack of plan is because while it?s common for movie series to have inconsistencies, this is the first time movies in the same trilogy have blatantly contradicted one another so glaringly.
You can literally see the filmmaker?s arguing with each other through their films.
What a mess.
For that reason alone, the ST is, in my opinion, the absolute WORST movie trilogy in the history of the medium.
I?m not being hyperbolic either, I truly believe that allowing the filmmakers to fight with each other, with the audience caught in the middle, was movie-making malpractice.

But you were missing his entire point which is who cares about all of the background nonsense if a person likes the final results.

 

[Khev]

But you were missing his entire point which is who cares about all of the background nonsense if person likes the final results.

Yep. Many of the best moments in the history of *cinema* were the results of unplanned happenstance and the OT itself, arguably the greatest trilogy of all time, still had *less* planning than the ST. It doesn't matter what reason the OT had less because it undeniably proved that the level of planning applied to those films was more than sufficient. So any attempts to then turn around and claim that the ST failed *because* it's more thorough planning than the OT was somehow *too little* is pure fallacy.

The reason everyone jumps on the lack of plan is because while it?s common for movie series to have inconsistencies, this is the first time movies in the same trilogy have blatantly contradicted one another so glaringly.

Don't be silly. Regardless of whether or not you like the films nothing in the ST contradicts itself to the degree that ESB and ROTJ contradict each other. Or has anything approaching the "certain point of view" nonsense needed to try and connect ANH and ESB at the last second. And don't even get me started on the insane mental gymnastics required to make the OT and PT fit together, lol. Lucas didn't even try to give us the actual backstory suggested by the on screen dialogue in the OT. Leia remembering her mother, Luke's father wanting him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough, and countless other continuity gaffes.

At least it had "newness" going for it the first time round. And I'm a sequel apologist!

In that latest interview JJ says there are pros and cons of having a plan, but admits that overall it's an advantage.

Remember Daisy Ridley said they hadn't settled on Rey's back story even while the cameras were rolling on TROS. Hence Wookieepedia (and even some official reference guides) have her as the daughter of a clone.

Kind of like Leia suddenly becoming a Skywalker for ROTJ.

 

[jal76]

But you were missing his entire point which is who cares about all of the background nonsense if person likes the final results.

I think you?re missing my point...because I made the exact same point...that was my point.

 

[jal76]

Don't be silly. Regardless of whether or not you like the films nothing in the ST contradicts itself to the degree that ESB and ROTJ contradict each other. Or has anything approaching the "certain point of view" nonsense needed to try and connect ANH and ESB at the last second. And don't even get me started on the insane mental gymnastics required to make the OT and PT fit together, lol. Lucas didn't even try to give us the actual backstory suggested by the on screen dialogue in the OT. Leia remembering her mother, Luke's father wanting him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough, and countless other continuity gaffes.



Kind of like Leia suddenly becoming a Skywalker for ROTJ.

Nope. I?d suggest you stop being silly too, but with this post that ship has unfortunately already sailed.
Nothing in the OT even remotely approaches the contortionist levels of reaching required to trick yourself into thinking the ST story makes any sort of logical sense.
Dumping on the universally loved and revered OT in a doomed attempt to prop up the nonsensical, panned, and hated sequel trilogy is kind of a weird hill to die on. But you do you.

 

[matticus]

Thread has went full essay form.

 

[ironwez20]

Yea I don?t understand the intense reaching to make the ST makes sense. If the majority of people see its glaring flaws and bad writing then something is wrong. If you need a microscope to find pieces to put a story together than that?s a problem .

 

[The Buffinator]

Thread has went full essay form.

This is all on YOU, my friend - you're the one who posted in this thread after it was dormant for 6 months!

 

[Khev]

Nope. I?d suggest you stop being silly too, but with this post that ship has unfortunately already sailed.
Nothing in the OT even remotely approaches the contortionist levels of reaching required to trick yourself into thinking the ST story makes any sort of logical sense.
Dumping on the universally loved and revered OT in a doomed attempt to prop up the nonsensical, panned, and hated sequel trilogy is kind of a weird hill to die on. But you do you.

This post makes it sound like you have absolutely no clue what made the OT great. Here's a hint, it wasn't airtight internal consistency, which it *never* had. So calling out the literal fact that the ST actually had a greater level of internal consistency is hardly "dumping on" the OT.

I just highlighted the fallacy of attempting to "prove" that the ST was inferior due to some made up notion that suddenly internal consistency is the end all be all of what makes SW good or bad. The OT proves that such consistency isn't necessary, which is good for the OT since if it was necessary then the ST would have it beat.

Is the ST as good as the OT? Of course it isn't, but it's not because of the blathering non-reasons spewed by "Fandom Menace" groupthink that are often repeated here.

Thread has went full essay form.

You must be new to this section if you've never seen me post in a SW thread before, lol.

 

[matticus]

This is all on YOU, my friend - you're the one who posted in this thread after it was dormant for 6 months!

It was more of a technical post in that they can change the look of the film after release on D+. Never know what else they could change!

This post makes it sound like you have absolutely no clue what made the OT great. Here's a hint, it wasn't airtight internal consistency, which it *never* had. So calling out the literal fact that the ST actually had a greater level of internal consistency is hardly "dunking on" the OT.

I just highlighted the fallacy of attempting to "prove" that the ST was inferior due to some made up notion that suddenly internal consistency is the end all be all of what makes SW good or bad. The OT proves that such consistency isn't necessary, which is good for the OT since if it was necessary then the ST would have it beat.

Is the ST as good as the OT? Of course it isn't, but it's not because of the blathering non-reasons spewed by "Fandom Menace" groupthink that are often repeated here.



You must be new to this section if you've never seen me post in a SW thread before, lol.

I've made my own essays in movies and figure threads. The SW wounds are deep cuts.

But I'll put the final nail in this coffin with this video that says all you need to know about the ST:

 

[ironwez20]

This is all on YOU, my friend - you're the one who posted in this thread after it was dormant for 6 months!

Lmao!!!! Dammit matticus. We buried this crap thread along with the crap sequels and khevs silly explanations deep in the pits of this forum?s hell but you just had to dig it up and electrify it back to it?s original festering state.

Sometimes dead is betta!

 

[Khev]

Ah yes, matticus...

 

[ironwez20]

It was more of a technical post in that they can change the look of the film after release on D+. Never know what else they could change!



I've made my own essays in movies and figure threads. The SW wounds are deep cuts.

But I'll put the final nail in this coffin with this video that says all you need to know about the ST:

I?m already 1:30 In and I?m laughing my ass off. Mark hamil is hilarious

 

[matticus]

Lmao!!!! Dammit matticus. We buried this crap thread along with the crap sequels and khevs silly explanations deep in the pits of this forum?s hell but you just had to dig it up and electrify it back to it?s original festering state.

Sometimes dead is betta!

Ah yes, matticus...

 

[Khev]