Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

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This post makes it sound like you have absolutely no clue what made the OT great. Here's a hint, it wasn't airtight internal consistency, which it *never* had. So calling out the literal fact that the ST actually had a greater level of internal consistency is hardly "dumping on" the OT. :cuckoo:

I just highlighted the fallacy of attempting to "prove" that the ST was inferior due to some made up notion that suddenly internal consistency is the end all be all of what makes SW good or bad. The OT proves that such consistency isn't necessary, which is good for the OT since if it was necessary then the ST would have it beat.

Is the ST as good as the OT? Of course it isn't, but it's not because of the blathering non-reasons spewed by "Fandom Menace" groupthink that are often repeated here.



You must be new to this section if you've never seen me post in a SW thread before, lol.

Don?t think I declared in any way that consistency was what made the OT good, in fact, in my last post on the topic I made it clear that the OT didn?t have a plan and was good in spite of that fact.
You?re having an argument with someone else on that but replying to me with it for some reason.
So here?s a hint for you: read before you reply.
I?ll say it again for you:
The OT is good because of good storytelling, the ST is bad because of bad storytelling.
Not sure why you?re struggling so much with this.
 
The reason why the ST needed a “plan” is because of Jar Jar’s mystery box style of story telling. If you set up all these mysteries in your first instalment and have all these cliff hangers that fans are speculating about since seeing the film then you need to plan what goes in that box! The OT didn’t do that other than the line is ESB “there is another”.

The ST had the following just to name a few:
(1) who are Rey’s parents and why does Anakin’s lightsaber call to her?
(2) how did Maz get the lightsaber?
(3) who is Snoke?
(4) where is Luke and what has he been doing?
(5) who is the first order and how did they rise to power unopposed and so effortlessly and why is the new republic so ineffectual?
(6) why did Ben turn to the dark side?
(7) who are the knights of ren?
(8) why did Leia not hug chewie? Does Chewie have a medal yet?

If you don’t have satisfying answers for these questions then you’ve weakened your own story narrative due to your own half baked way of setting it up.
 
Don?t think I declared in any way that consistency was what made the OT good, in fact, in my last post on the topic I made it clear that the OT didn?t have a plan and was good in spite of that fact.
You?re having an argument with someone else on that but replying to me with it for some reason.
So here?s a hint for you: read before you reply.
I?ll say it again for you:
The OT is good because of good storytelling, the ST is bad because of bad storytelling.
Not sure why you?re struggling so much with this.

The only struggle I see is you trying to keep up with your own erroneous points.

But this takes me back to my original point.
If you?ve read J.W. Rinzler?s excellent books on the OT, I?m assuming you have, then you know that Lucas didn?t really have much of a plan.
Sequels were considered to be a losing gamble in those days so it?s understandable.
As Ironwez pointed out, there is no excuse today not to have a plan when you announce a TRILOGY of films which was something that Lucas did not do back in 1977.
Back in 2012 on the day Disney announced its purchase of Lucasfilm they announced the ST in the same announcement.
The reason everyone jumps on the lack of plan is because while it?s common for movie series to have inconsistencies, this is the first time movies in the same trilogy have blatantly contradicted one another so glaringly.
You can literally see the filmmaker?s arguing with each other through their films.
What a mess.
For that reason alone, the ST is, in my opinion, the absolute WORST movie trilogy in the history of the medium.

I?m not being hyperbolic either, I truly believe that allowing the filmmakers to fight with each other, with the audience caught in the middle, was movie-making malpractice.

Your entire premise that the ST is "the worst movie trilogy in the history of the medium" "for the reason that movies in the same trilogy have never so blatantly contradicted each other" is so easily debunked. No I'm not debunking your opinion (ridiculously hyperbolic that it may be) that this is the "worst trilogy" ever made because that is yours alone but to say that no trilogy has contradicted itself more is pretty far off the mark when it's a matter of objective fact that it isn't even the most contradictory trilogy of its own Saga.

This whole discussion was a reaction to JJ's interview where he said that in retrospect more planning probably would have helped. And I'm inclined to agree with him on that. But your previous premise, that you are now understandably fleeing from, that the ST failed *because* of it's lack of planning when it was actually planned out *more* than the OT is pure bunk. But if all you can do now is deflect and accuse to save face then have at it. I think the conversation between you and I has more than run it's course at this point.
 
The reason why the ST needed a “plan” is because of Jar Jar’s mystery box style of story telling. If you set up all these mysteries in your first instalment and have all these cliff hangers that fans are speculating about since seeing the film then you need to plan what goes in that box! The OT didn’t do that other than the line is ESB “there is another”.

The ST had the following just to name a few:
(1) who are Rey’s parents and why does Anakin’s lightsaber call to her?
(2) how did Maz get the lightsaber?
(3) who is Snoke?
(4) where is Luke and what has he been doing?
(5) who is the first order and how did they rise to power unopposed and so effortlessly and why is the new republic so ineffectual?
(6) why did Ben turn to the dark side?
(7) who are the knights of ren?
(8) why did Leia not hug chewie? Does Chewie have a medal yet?

If you don’t have satisfying answers for these questions then you’ve weakened your own story narrative due to your own half baked way of setting it up.

Pitfalls of unanswered "mystery box" storytelling is a great point Bravomite. Though I'm not sure that the ST so much as failed to answer them as it did change the answers?

Let's go through each one of these and see how many of these JJ himself really didn't have an answer for at the time they were introduced:

(1) who are Rey’s parents

--Originally intended by JJ to be a Kenobi. Then changed to nameless junk traders by RJ then changed to Palpatine by JJ. I would put this more in the camp of Luke and Leia's ever changing lineage in the OT and not so much a blind mystery box that JJ had no clue how to answer.

and why does Anakin’s lightsaber call to her?

--Unclear as to whether JJ had an answer for this when he shot the scene but it was answered nicely by having the theme of past Jedi corporately communing with living ones in TROS (IMO of course.)

(2) how did Maz get the lightsaber?

--JJ did have an explanation for this, it just wasn't shown on screen. One of the original drafts of TFA had the camera panning down the star field after the opening crawl showing Luke's severed hand tumbling through space with the lightsaber. It then enters the atmosphere of a planet and burns up leaving only the lightsaber to strike the ground. Maz's hand is then shown entering the frame and picking it up. Goofy? Yep! Am I glad that it didn't make the cut? Hell yeah. But it was technically an answer to the question of that particular mystery box. It just wasn't determined to be a necessary enough answer to show on screen in the context of the story.

(3) who is Snoke?

--Not sure if JJ or Kasdan's original plans for Snoke's backstory has ever been revealed. I'd certainly be curious to know. But JJ himself did answer the question of who he was and that we obviously know now is that he was a clone created by Palpatine.

(4) where is Luke and what has he been doing?

--From RJ's comments it really did sound like there was no established reason (and JJ just had him chilling on the island lifting rocks for no reason, lol.) BUT...since that particular bit was lifted from Lucas' own Episode 7 treatment I'm fine with it. Like Snoke the question was answered on screen though.

(5) who is the first order and how did they rise to power unopposed and so effortlessly and why is the new republic so ineffectual?

--JJ had an answer for this one too. He didn't say how the FO came to be on screen (one of my big criticisms with TFA's opening crawl, we really SHOULD have gotten more info on that right out of the gate) but he did say in interviews that he pictured the FO to be remnants of the Empire who had hidden on the fringe of the galaxy and beyond "like Nazis who fled to Argentina after WWII" until they were strong enough to make a comeback.

As for the New Republic apparently their *entire* fleet was in the Hosnian System which got vaporized by Starkiller Base. I'm not defending whether that was cool or not, just addressing your "unanswered mystery box" suppositions.

(6) why did Ben turn to the dark side?

--I think JJ and Kasdan made it clear that Snoke warped his mind remotely. Thankfully they course corrected that by making it Palpatine who did so, much more fitting and believable IMO.

(7) who are the knights of ren?

--I don't think Abrams was playing games with that one, I think he just intended for them to be Kylo Ren's recruited Acolytes. That was my impression from watching TFA anyway. Though I do prefer RJ's notion that they were other students of Luke that followed Ben Solo.

(8) why did Leia not hug chewie? Does Chewie have a medal yet?

--lol, a great mystery indeed. ;)

I'm glad you brought up the haphazard "mystery box" of Yoda's "no there is another" line in ESB. Because that probably led to the single worst handled explanation of the OT. Which coincidentally is one of the many reasons I love TROS. It gives you permission to recontextualize Yoda's statement into referring to Rey instead of him being a moron telling Obi-Wan "don't worry, if Luke fails to rescue Leia and they both die there is still another." Huh, how the hell does that work if Leia IS the other, lol.

And that's not the only mystery box from a previous trilogy that TROS answers since it closes the circle on the biggest unanswered mystery of all from the PT which was "using paths that some would consider unnatural to cheat death." And it doesn't stop there. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force? Really? *TROS Palps nukes 14,000 ships at once with his bare hands* Ohhhh, lol. "Unlimited power" was changed from being a silly meme into a real force (no pun intended) to be reckoned with as well. I guess what I'm saying with these final points is that in my mind not only were the most important "mystery box" elements introduced in TFA answered but they at least did *have* answers before TLJ or TROS changed the answers. And that's fair play IMO. PLUS the ST also answered or favorably changed answers to some of the biggest mysteries of the previous trilogies which was a *massive* bonus.

You raised some really great points though. :duff
 
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The only struggle I see is you trying to keep up with your own erroneous points.



Your entire premise that the ST is "the worst movie trilogy in the history of the medium" "for the reason that movies in the same trilogy have never so blatantly contradicted each other" is so easily debunked. No I'm not debunking your opinion (ridiculously hyperbolic that it may be) that this is the "worst trilogy" ever made because that is yours alone but to say that no trilogy has contradicted itself more is pretty far off the mark when it's a matter of objective fact that it isn't even the most contradictory trilogy of its own Saga.

This whole discussion was a reaction to JJ's interview where he said that in retrospect more planning probably would have helped. And I'm inclined to agree with him on that. But your previous premise, that you are now understandably fleeing from, that the ST failed *because* of it's lack of planning when it was actually planned out *more* than the OT is pure bunk. But if all you can do now is deflect and accuse to save face then have at it. I think the conversation between you and I has more than run it's course at this point.

It has run its course, right after I say this part:
You keep saying that I am saying the ST is bad because it wasn?t planned and I keep telling you that it?s bad because it?s bad.
The lack of planning is just my diagnosis of why it may have gone so bad, that?s all.
Not sure how many different ways I can say that.
If my premise about the ST being the most self-contradictory trilogy is so EASILY DEBUNKED, why haven?t you debunked it yet?
You say it?s an an objective fact that it?s not the most contradictory series in the saga, where is that recorded? Is there a scientific board of review that keeps these factual records that you can point me to? I?d be very interested in seeing that.
This word, OBJECTIVE, I do not think it means what you think it means.
You twisting yourself into knots and saying foolish things like, you could tell that Rey was a Palpatine in TFA is just embarrassing. When you say that stuff, you?re embarrassing yourself.
That would be like me saying I could tell Vader was Luke?s father in Star Wars or Leia was Luke?s sister in ESB. I couldn?t tell any of that, because when those movies were made those relationships didn?t exist, they were added after the fact. Just like Rey being a Palpatine.
No one groaned when Vader was revealed as Luke?s father, it went down as one of the greatest moments in cinema, unlike the nonsensical Rey reveal. Why? Good Movie vs Bad Movie.
How could you tell that Rey was a Palpatine when even the filmmakers didn?t know she was a Palpatine.
I keep trying to talk you off the ledge because I can?t take the second hand embarrassment from your comments. They seriously make me cringe every time you make them.
 
Jal relax the world is not going to end because Khev likes the ST sheesh lol

Glad I didn't read that novel in this thread. If he does indeed like the ST, then Khev needs a readjustment:

tenor.gif
 
I'm glad you brought up the haphazard "mystery box" of Yoda's "no there is another" line in ESB. Because that probably led to the single worst handled explanation of the OT. Which coincidentally is one of the many reasons I love TROS. It gives you permission to recontextualize Yoda's statement into referring to Rey instead of him being a moron telling Obi-Wan "don't worry, if Luke fails to rescue Leia and they both die there is still another." Huh, how the hell does that work if Leia IS the other, lol.

I have to defend this point. Not that I'm a huge fan of this underused idea -- no, there is another -- however, it worked in the moment it was intended -- not to breach into a sequel, but to be hopeful within ESB. When Luke failed, and fell to his hanging doom under cloud city, he was essentially finished as our Hope... but there is another, meaning that Leia (being his sister) could feel his presence through the Force and rush back to rescue him... giving him a 2nd chance. At least, that is how I interpret the "there is another"... the Hope that she will save him.

In ROTJ -- and this might be a bit of a stretch -- it is the mention of his sister's possible fate that drives Luke to finally attack and finish Vader. So in a sense, Leia is the spark that lit the flame, that burnt the fuse, that ran to the bomb, that set off the chain reaction, that blew up the Emperor.
 
Yep. :exactly: Many of the best moments in the history of *cinema* were the results of unplanned happenstance and the OT itself, arguably the greatest trilogy of all time, still had *less* planning than the ST. It doesn't matter what reason the OT had less because it undeniably proved that the level of planning applied to those films was more than sufficient. So any attempts to then turn around and claim that the ST failed *because* it's more thorough planning than the OT was somehow *too little* is pure fallacy.



Don't be silly. Regardless of whether or not you like the films nothing in the ST contradicts itself to the degree that ESB and ROTJ contradict each other. Or has anything approaching the "certain point of view" nonsense needed to try and connect ANH and ESB at the last second. And don't even get me started on the insane mental gymnastics required to make the OT and PT fit together, lol. Lucas didn't even try to give us the actual backstory suggested by the on screen dialogue in the OT. Leia remembering her mother, Luke's father wanting him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough, and countless other continuity gaffes.



Kind of like Leia suddenly becoming a Skywalker for ROTJ.

Like the Indianapolis speech in Jaws.....Totally unscripted .

And the barrels, only happened cause Bruce wouldn?t work.


You don?t need a plan to make good films, but it helps.....
Unless we are talking about The Godfather 3.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The reason why the ST needed a ?plan? is because of Jar Jar?s mystery box style of story telling. If you set up all these mysteries in your first instalment and have all these cliff hangers that fans are speculating about since seeing the film then you need to plan what goes in that box! The OT didn?t do that other than the line is ESB ?there is another?.

The ST had the following just to name a few:
(1) who are Rey?s parents and why does Anakin?s lightsaber call to her?
(2) how did Maz get the lightsaber?
(3) who is Snoke?
(4) where is Luke and what has he been doing?
(5) who is the first order and how did they rise to power unopposed and so effortlessly and why is the new republic so ineffectual?
(6) why did Ben turn to the dark side?
(7) who are the knights of ren?
(8) why did Leia not hug chewie? Does Chewie have a medal yet?

If you don?t have satisfying answers for these questions then you?ve weakened your own story narrative due to your own half baked way of setting it up.

Well said. And very true. When you use mystery as your main story point, it?s going to end up as a fail for a lot of people because thier imaginations cannot all be satisfied.

For the record , I can enjoy the ST for what it is....entertainment. I gave up on the SW worship a while back. They are good films , and a huge part of my childhood, but at this point , I have seen them so many times , I know everything about them, and the Universe as a whole, I am at the point of diminishing returns.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I have to defend this point. Not that I'm a huge fan of this underused idea -- no, there is another -- however, it worked in the moment it was intended -- not to breach into a sequel, but to be hopeful within ESB. When Luke failed, and fell to his hanging doom under cloud city, he was essentially finished as our Hope... but there is another, meaning that Leia (being his sister) could feel his presence through the Force and rush back to rescue him... giving him a 2nd chance. At least, that is how I interpret the "there is another"... the Hope that she will save him.

In ROTJ -- and this might be a bit of a stretch -- it is the mention of his sister's possible fate that drives Luke to finally attack and finish Vader. So in a sense, Leia is the spark that lit the flame, that burnt the fuse, that ran to the bomb, that set off the chain reaction, that blew up the Emperor.

Honestly I never put all this together, but I like it alot. Thanks :)
 
I'd say the ST had awful aliens, but then again I can't say I ever fell in love with any of the OT species either. I know I'll get a lot of hate for this, but I always felt that the movies were the weakest parts of Star Wars as a brand. The OT, if we're being honest, is a mishmash of all the things Lucas liked. He couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon, so he created his own Pulp SyFy. He added things that were popular back then like Westerns and Samurai films, a lot of Dune, some Asimov, then some Eastern Mysticism, allusions to the events of his time, a ton of comics, and after filtering it all through a Tolkien-esque Fantasy lens, we got Star Wars. Its sources of inspiration were so many that you can say that it is a unique product at the end of the day. But to me, that also creates a problem of appeal. By that I mean what exactly is the appeal of Star Wars? Star Trek has the Utopian future going on, coupled with space exploration and philosophising. It's the SyFy take on Naval Adventure Novels like Hornblower and Aubey-Maturin. WH40K has its Grimdark Edge going on with a huge universe where anything goes. You self-insert as your preferred Space GrecoRoman Templar Soviet Werchmart and off you go. Going away from SF, LotR has its own feel, WarCraft too, basically my point is that you know what you're getting at with them. You're not going into Trek for ninja sorcerers and you don't go into 40K for feelgood stories about alien buddies going on adventures. But with SW, what is its "thing"?

Personally, I think it depends on the Era. And that's why you have OT and PT purists. The OT is a Fairy Tale set in Space. The Knight (Luke), his Magician Mentor (Ben), and his Rogue friends (Han & Chewie) go to rescue a Princess (Leia) from an Evil Lord (Vader) and stop the Eviler Lord (Emperor) from rulling the World (Galaxy). They go on various adventures, they beat him and that's it. The aesthetic there is 50s Pulp SyFy mixed with a Space take on the usual Fantasy tropes. Yoda and the Ewoks being based on anthropomorphic versions of animals, with one being the wise master and the others being the cuddly but fierce tribe, the planets that are just giant swamps or giant deserts or giant ice deserts, and so on and so forth. It's the usual Fantasy areas but expanded to whole planets. Add a feel of the American Frontier and that's basically your OT aesthetic. The PT was styled as a Space Opera and has more flair. The environments are more lush and vibrant, we see more planets with distinct cultures and architecture, the story itself is styled more like a Tragedy set in a Space version of the Renaissance than a Tolkien-inspired Fantasy world. The story tackles more themes and sideplots, and leaves room for more players. There are MCs, but there are more secondary characters who can have their own adventures. That's the short version of the core differences.

I grew up with the PT over the OT, and while I can say the latter are more competently made, and the former had more ambition, I can't say that I enjoy any of them as films. Aside from ROTS, I've watched every other SW only once. If SW was only the movies, I doubt I would've cared enough to still engage with it. Whatever I like came from the EU. The games, the comics, the ones who utilized the settings. And the answer is fairly simple. The budget and tech just wasn't there to pull off a proper Space Opera. In comics you can draw whole Armadas battling it out and generally do whatever you want. Movies restrain you. Having not grown up with the OT, and not particularly liking the genres it was inspired from (Western, Tolkien Fantasy, 50s Pulp SyFy, etc) I have no real fondness for it. I don't much care for the characters. The aesthetics don't grab me. But the EU built upon the world in every direction. More battles, more characters, more varied tales, more planets with their own identities and so on. The PT has a scope and thematical core that grabs me more, so while I find the movies less "solid" and the choices made questionable, I do prefer it. But even then, it's the EU that added all the flair that got me in.

The ST's problem is that it had neither a plan, nor a hook. It ripped off the EU, badly, and run on just nostalgia for the OT. And the thing is, SW is not like Trek where they more or less follow the same beats. OT purists dislike the PT for the same reason the PT purists dislike the OT; they're fundementally different beasts. SW is like a comic book universe. Just because one reads Avengers doesn't mean they'll like the X-Men. They exist in the same universe, they have a lot of similarities, but they're ultimately different. The themes, the genres, the aesthetics in their entirety. So when the ST came along the only ones who could ever like it were two groups. Those who grew up with the OT and would feel nostalgia to the rememberries, and the kids who would be exposed to SW for the first time. It did nothing new, it didn't have at least a coherent homage, it did it all wrong, basically. The one thing I'll give it is that it had nice designs. My problem with the OT is that it wasn't futuristic enough. I vastly prefer SyFy over Fantasy, so I always like seeing sleek and powerful machines. The ST had some nice worldbuilding in the sense of ships, clothes, locales and whatnot, but it wasn't anything groundbreaking, it just was closer to my sensibilities.

Generally, I'm fairly in the camp where the films are my least favourite aspect of the franchise. I've never felt the need to rewatch them, and I likely never will. I'm firmly a comics person. As for my relationship with the property now, I like it still, but it's more of a "oh, yeah, sure" case instead of obsessing over it. I'm in the proccess of watching TCW/Rebels, but that's mostly because my schedule is tight and 20 (mostly 10 with the 2.0x speed) minute episodes help me over 1-hour long dramas (of which I've watched all the prestige stuff so I'm done). And because of my hoarding. I'm keeping up with the new shows because it's 1 hour per week for about 2 months at a time, so it's not a huge investment. I'll buy the figures I want and they're my priority now. But there's no real investment. My interest comes and goes, sometimes it intensifies, sometimes it dies. And that's with all other stuff, really. These days I have culled a lot of pop culture. From the ones remaining I've reached the point where I like them on principle instead of execution. I like the core concepts, and ideas I come up with of how I'd do them, but I'm not madly interested in revisiting the same old stories. I've chosen to still engage with them, which means trying the new installments and buying the odd merch, but that's as far as it goes. My days of obsession are long before me.

At the end of the day, I think it's natural. Aside from the overabundance of entertainment and the reppetition of its contents today, you can only become obsessed with something as a kid, when you're young and careless and have lots of free time. As you grow up your tastes change and the act of wasting so much time on something so utterly useless starts bothering you. Lots of people maintain a guilty pleasure, so there's that. SW, ultimately is for 12 YOs. It's pretty tame, it has some nice morals, it's feel-good, and that's that. Some like it well into their 50s to choose it as their guilty pleasure. Some prefer the X-Men or Superman or whatever. But you can't really be a functional adult and still keep up with 20 different IPs; it's just not feasible. Ultimately, SW is a poperty for kids that Lucas used as a toy shop and milked for money. All the rest is schemantics.

I don't know about you, but I just cannot seem to pour any actual investment in these things anymore. Star Wars is such a huge, sprawling franchises that involves every medium that it becomes tedious to even try. It's even worse than comics. At least there all you need is a guide for the tie-ins. You start at the beginning and keep on going until it's over. A comic can be sped read. Books, shows, games, much less so. Honestly, when I'm done with TCW and the such a burden will lift off my chest. It's too much of a commitment to care about something as trivial and fluctuating in quality. A movie I can judge. Even if it's succesful and it spawns sequels and some tie-ins, it's still feasible. Wars & Trek have just too much content. Even 40K is more tame compared to them. I find that whatever investment I do have, comes directly from aesthetic choices and the idea of a character/story whose concept I rework in my mind and eventually prefer the illusion I've constructed.

Maybe it's because I'm not the target audience, when you get down to it. I like edge. It's where I find pure enjoyment. Not edge as in blood and guts, but more moral questions than just "gud guys vs bad guys". I read F4 mostly for Doom. I liked the X-Men over the Avengers because of the X-TREME designs and more unique stories. So I gravitate towards the Sith, and considering SW is not about them, as they exist merely to be evil foils and nothing more, my enjoyment of it has dropped. It's not as hardcore as I'd want my Magical Knights to be, which is why I find 40K more pleasing. Or Dune. I like Space Operas. Huge battles, epic scopes, politics, Royal Houses, and so on. But iWars also doesn't have the pure sci-fi exploration of Trek, that while having little edginess, scratches another itch of mine. I consume Wars for the Sith, period.

Maybe there are people out there who live and breathe Star Wars still, but I'm not one of them. I like it, and that's more than I can say for most IPs I've involved myself with, but I'm not thinking about it 24/7. I buy my dolly, I watch the new episode and that's it. It's more of a completionist mindset than anything else. I keep track of the Sith, because that's what SW is to me. The rest is worldbuilding.
 
I'd say the ST had awful aliens, but then again I can't say I ever fell in love with any of the OT species either. I know I'll get a lot of hate for this, but I always felt that the movies were the weakest parts of Star Wars as a brand. The OT, if we're being honest, is a mishmash of all the things Lucas liked. He couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon, so he created his own Pulp SyFy. He added things that were popular back then like Westerns and Samurai films, a lot of Dune, some Asimov, then some Eastern Mysticism, allusions to the events of his time, a ton of comics, and after filtering it all through a Tolkien-esque Fantasy lens, we got Star Wars. Its sources of inspiration were so many that you can say that it is a unique product at the end of the day. But to me, that also creates a problem of appeal. By that I mean what exactly is the appeal of Star Wars? Star Trek has the Utopian future going on, coupled with space exploration and philosophising. It's the SyFy take on Naval Adventure Novels like Hornblower and Aubey-Maturin. WH40K has its Grimdark Edge going on with a huge universe where anything goes. You self-insert as your preferred Space GrecoRoman Templar Soviet Werchmart and off you go. Going away from SF, LotR has its own feel, WarCraft too, basically my point is that you know what you're getting at with them. You're not going into Trek for ninja sorcerers and you don't go into 40K for feelgood stories about alien buddies going on adventures. But with SW, what is its "thing"?

Personally, I think it depends on the Era. And that's why you have OT and PT purists. The OT is a Fairy Tale set in Space. The Knight (Luke), his Magician Mentor (Ben), and his Rogue friends (Han & Chewie) go to rescue a Princess (Leia) from an Evil Lord (Vader) and stop the Eviler Lord (Emperor) from rulling the World (Galaxy). They go on various adventures, they beat him and that's it. The aesthetic there is 50s Pulp SyFy mixed with a Space take on the usual Fantasy tropes. Yoda and the Ewoks being based on anthropomorphic versions of animals, with one being the wise master and the others being the cuddly but fierce tribe, the planets that are just giant swamps or giant deserts or giant ice deserts, and so on and so forth. It's the usual Fantasy areas but expanded to whole planets. Add a feel of the American Frontier and that's basically your OT aesthetic. The PT was styled as a Space Opera and has more flair. The environments are more lush and vibrant, we see more planets with distinct cultures and architecture, the story itself is styled more like a Tragedy set in a Space version of the Renaissance than a Tolkien-inspired Fantasy world. The story tackles more themes and sideplots, and leaves room for more players. There are MCs, but there are more secondary characters who can have their own adventures. That's the short version of the core differences.

I grew up with the PT over the OT, and while I can say the latter are more competently made, and the former had more ambition, I can't say that I enjoy any of them as films. Aside from ROTS, I've watched every other SW only once. If SW was only the movies, I doubt I would've cared enough to still engage with it. Whatever I like came from the EU. The games, the comics, the ones who utilized the settings. And the answer is fairly simple. The budget and tech just wasn't there to pull off a proper Space Opera. In comics you can draw whole Armadas battling it out and generally do whatever you want. Movies restrain you. Having not grown up with the OT, and not particularly liking the genres it was inspired from (Western, Tolkien Fantasy, 50s Pulp SyFy, etc) I have no real fondness for it. I don't much care for the characters. The aesthetics don't grab me. But the EU built upon the world in every direction. More battles, more characters, more varied tales, more planets with their own identities and so on. The PT has a scope and thematical core that grabs me more, so while I find the movies less "solid" and the choices made questionable, I do prefer it. But even then, it's the EU that added all the flair that got me in.

The ST's problem is that it had neither a plan, nor a hook. It ripped off the EU, badly, and run on just nostalgia for the OT. And the thing is, SW is not like Trek where they more or less follow the same beats. OT purists dislike the PT for the same reason the PT purists dislike the OT; they're fundementally different beasts. SW is like a comic book universe. Just because one reads Avengers doesn't mean they'll like the X-Men. They exist in the same universe, they have a lot of similarities, but they're ultimately different. The themes, the genres, the aesthetics in their entirety. So when the ST came along the only ones who could ever like it were two groups. Those who grew up with the OT and would feel nostalgia to the rememberries, and the kids who would be exposed to SW for the first time. It did nothing new, it didn't have at least a coherent homage, it did it all wrong, basically. The one thing I'll give it is that it had nice designs. My problem with the OT is that it wasn't futuristic enough. I vastly prefer SyFy over Fantasy, so I always like seeing sleek and powerful machines. The ST had some nice worldbuilding in the sense of ships, clothes, locales and whatnot, but it wasn't anything groundbreaking, it just was closer to my sensibilities.

Generally, I'm fairly in the camp where the films are my least favourite aspect of the franchise. I've never felt the need to rewatch them, and I likely never will. I'm firmly a comics person. As for my relationship with the property now, I like it still, but it's more of a "oh, yeah, sure" case instead of obsessing over it. I'm in the proccess of watching TCW/Rebels, but that's mostly because my schedule is tight and 20 (mostly 10 with the 2.0x speed) minute episodes help me over 1-hour long dramas (of which I've watched all the prestige stuff so I'm done). And because of my hoarding. I'm keeping up with the new shows because it's 1 hour per week for about 2 months at a time, so it's not a huge investment. I'll buy the figures I want and they're my priority now. But there's no real investment. My interest comes and goes, sometimes it intensifies, sometimes it dies. And that's with all other stuff, really. These days I have culled a lot of pop culture. From the ones remaining I've reached the point where I like them on principle instead of execution. I like the core concepts, and ideas I come up with of how I'd do them, but I'm not madly interested in revisiting the same old stories. I've chosen to still engage with them, which means trying the new installments and buying the odd merch, but that's as far as it goes. My days of obsession are long before me.

At the end of the day, I think it's natural. Aside from the overabundance of entertainment and the reppetition of its contents today, you can only become obsessed with something as a kid, when you're young and careless and have lots of free time. As you grow up your tastes change and the act of wasting so much time on something so utterly useless starts bothering you. Lots of people maintain a guilty pleasure, so there's that. SW, ultimately is for 12 YOs. It's pretty tame, it has some nice morals, it's feel-good, and that's that. Some like it well into their 50s to choose it as their guilty pleasure. Some prefer the X-Men or Superman or whatever. But you can't really be a functional adult and still keep up with 20 different IPs; it's just not feasible. Ultimately, SW is a poperty for kids that Lucas used as a toy shop and milked for money. All the rest is schemantics.

I don't know about you, but I just cannot seem to pour any actual investment in these things anymore. Star Wars is such a huge, sprawling franchises that involves every medium that it becomes tedious to even try. It's even worse than comics. At least there all you need is a guide for the tie-ins. You start at the beginning and keep on going until it's over. A comic can be sped read. Books, shows, games, much less so. Honestly, when I'm done with TCW and the such a burden will lift off my chest. It's too much of a commitment to care about something as trivial and fluctuating in quality. A movie I can judge. Even if it's succesful and it spawns sequels and some tie-ins, it's still feasible. Wars & Trek have just too much content. Even 40K is more tame compared to them. I find that whatever investment I do have, comes directly from aesthetic choices and the idea of a character/story whose concept I rework in my mind and eventually prefer the illusion I've constructed.

Maybe it's because I'm not the target audience, when you get down to it. I like edge. It's where I find pure enjoyment. Not edge as in blood and guts, but more moral questions than just "gud guys vs bad guys". I read F4 mostly for Doom. I liked the X-Men over the Avengers because of the X-TREME designs and more unique stories. So I gravitate towards the Sith, and considering SW is not about them, as they exist merely to be evil foils and nothing more, my enjoyment of it has dropped. It's not as hardcore as I'd want my Magical Knights to be, which is why I find 40K more pleasing. Or Dune. I like Space Operas. Huge battles, epic scopes, politics, Royal Houses, and so on. But iWars also doesn't have the pure sci-fi exploration of Trek, that while having little edginess, scratches another itch of mine. I consume Wars for the Sith, period.

Maybe there are people out there who live and breathe Star Wars still, but I'm not one of them. I like it, and that's more than I can say for most IPs I've involved myself with, but I'm not thinking about it 24/7. I buy my dolly, I watch the new episode and that's it. It's more of a completionist mindset than anything else. I keep track of the Sith, because that's what SW is to me. The rest is worldbuilding.

I was known as the Star Wars addict by my family for a few generations, my nieces and nephews all love to talk SW when we get together.

But I feel similar, I do not have the time to invest in it any more. I still can talk a good game, and keep up during vacations.....but that?s it. Too much reality in the way to spend any more time with it.

It?s actually liberating and yet sad at the same time.


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