Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

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The fact that this is a word-for-word quote from a Jedi during a short story set in the PT era makes the whole argument a bit ironic doesn't it? The Jedi of that era were the only ones to have collectively failed. The only era of Jedi known for having lost their way. :lol

Since you're a huge fan of Filoni, I'd be curious to know how you interpret what he had Yoda counsel Ezra with on the subject of if/how a Jedi should fight:



Ezra: "Yeah, but Master Yoda, how are we supposed to win if we don't fight back?"

Yoda: "Win? [laughs] Win . . . hmph. How Jedi choose to win, the question is."

This seems to back up the things that Yoda says in the OT. I can't pretend to know exactly what Filoni was going for here, but the matter of *how* to achieve victory without fighting is not the same as promoting pacifism. It's basically saying that a Jedi has a responsibility to use what he has learned of the Force to find another way to resolve conflicts. To me, Luke ended up doing exactly that in the ST. Being on the island for so long (or at all) was dumb. But when it came time to be a Jedi again, I still struggle with understanding how what he did isn't perceived as the ideal Jedi resolution. Staying true to what he learned.

If Yoda's dialogue in ESB wasn't enough, it was punctuated by the climax of ROTJ where Luke tosses his weapon when face to face with the orchestrator of evil, the Emperor himself. Was he stupid to leave himself defenseless? Yes. :lol But the symbolism of his act is supposed to tie back to the lessons he learned. I think it'd be pretty odd to undo that arc in the sequels, but whatever. Everyone has their own interpretation of what these movies are saying, and how they "should" go.



Wasn't he just hiding out like Obi-Wan and Yoda before him? :huh

Well said on all accounts. No sense in debating such points against deaf ears though, and that's the absolute nicest way I can put it, lol. ;)
 
All the previous lengthy arguments about Sequel Trilogy toys can be put to rest officially as Howard Chan confirmed publicly that "the sales were awful". :yess:
 
It?s a little different. The jedi were all killed from the inside in a bit of a sneak attack and the empire was the first of its kind. They were up against overwhelming odds.

At the end of rotj the empire is defeated and the rebels won. So how the hell did the same thing happen over again but this time bigger than what came before? Did they just let it happen and after Luke lost his temple he just said whatever and left?

They have hands on experience with this stuff. The jedi were being killed left abd right. They had to hide cause there numbers were decreasing. And again the empire was the first of its kind
 
All the previous lengthy arguments about Sequel Trilogy toys can be put to rest officially as Howard Chan confirmed publicly that "the sales were awful". :yess:

Lol really? Where did he say that?

Edit nvm. And he also said rots darkside anskin is his greatest achievement.

Lmao that adds more fuel to ducky?s arguments that the PT just outsells the ST in every way and there is more demand
 
It?s a little different. The jedi were all killed from the inside in a bit of a sneak attack and the empire was the first of its kind. They were up against overwhelming odds.

At the end of rotj the empire is defeated and the rebels won. So how the hell did the same thing happen over again but this time bigger than what came before? Did they just let it happen and after Luke lost his temple he just said whatever and left?

They have hands on experience with this stuff. The jedi were being killed left abd right. They had to hide cause there numbers were decreasing. And again the empire was the first of its kind

Right, any comparisons between what Yoda and Obi Wan did and what Jake Skywalker did in the ST only show that the folks making the comparisons didn?t really understand the movies.
Palpatine was the ruler of the galaxy, the head of the government, and he had legally declared that the Jedi were criminals who had attempted a coup d?etat.
They had to go into hiding because they had basically been turned into outlaws.
Luke mad at himself because he wanted to kill his nephew for a moment and then watched him go bad and wipe out his temple.
Not the same thing, not even close.
 
Right, any comparisons between what Yoda and Obi Wan did and what Jake Skywalker did in the ST only show that the folks making the comparisons didn?t really understand the movies.
Palpatine was the ruler of the galaxy, the head of the government, and he had legally declared that the Jedi were criminals who had attempted a coup d?etat.
They had to go into hiding because they had basically been turned into outlaws.
Luke mad at himself because he wanted to kill his nephew for a moment and then watched him go bad and wipe out his temple.
Not the same thing, not even close.

You're conveniently forgetting that Kenobi and Yoda encouraged Luke (and potentially Leia, if Luke ended up getting killed) to become a Jedi during the same time period when Jedi were still deemed outlaws.

So, if the rationale for Yoda exiling on Dagobah was to hide from the corrupt hand of the law, how does that reconcile with encouraging Luke to go risk his life all alone under the same conditions? Yoda and Kenobi were *two* well-seasoned Jedi who did nothing for 20 years. Luke was a novice by comparison, and equally in danger of being exposed to Imperial persecution as a Jedi (lightsaber and all).

And if you take the animated shows into account, Yoda was aware of Ezra and Kanan pursuing the Jedi path out in the open. Both were hunted and pursued by inquisitors, yet both remained active in the face of danger while Yoda and Kenobi were hiding. On top of that, Yoda didn't even want to train Luke until after Kenobi had talked him into it.

So yeah, not the same thing indeed.
 
All the previous lengthy arguments about Sequel Trilogy toys can be put to rest officially as Howard Chan confirmed publicly that "the sales were awful". :yess:

Lmao that adds more fuel to ducky?s arguments that the PT just outsells the ST in every way and there is more demand

I wasn't aware of this being disputed - must have been in the toy threads.
 
You're conveniently forgetting that Kenobi and Yoda encouraged Luke (and potentially Leia, if Luke ended up getting killed) to become a Jedi during the same time period when Jedi were still deemed outlaws.

So, if the rationale for Yoda exiling on Dagobah was to hide from the corrupt hand of the law, how does that reconcile with encouraging Luke to go risk his life all alone under the same conditions? Yoda and Kenobi were *two* well-seasoned Jedi who did nothing for 20 years. Luke was a novice by comparison, and equally in danger of being exposed to Imperial persecution as a Jedi (lightsaber and all).

And if you take the animated shows into account, Yoda was aware of Ezra and Kanan pursuing the Jedi path out in the open. Both were hunted and pursued by inquisitors, yet both remained active in the face of danger while Yoda and Kenobi were hiding. On top of that, Yoda didn't even want to train Luke until after Kenobi had talked him into it.

So yeah, not the same thing indeed.

You won?t see me trying to defend the quagmire that is the continuity of all of Star Wars, from ESB contradicting ANH on.
It just further proves my overall point that post Disney Star Wars has no trouble crushing the OT to tell its nonsensical stories. The idea that there were two Jedi running around with the rebel alliance just a few years before ANH, contradicts everything that comes after it.
With that said, I?m still not sure of what your point is. Yoda and Obi Wan were 2 well known Jedi and enemies of the Emperor which made them enemies of the galaxy. Whichever way you slice it, they would have some degree of difficulty operating in public without being mobbed by bounty hunters, stormtroopers, and whomever else. It?s also been fairly well established in the current canon Marvel comics that Obi Wan?s primary goal was watching over Luke anyway.
It?s a pretty big leap to compare that to the most hopeful character in Star Wars going off to hide on an island all by himself because...failure.
 
I wasn't aware of this being disputed - must have been in the toy threads.

I would say less so more recently, especially after some other high level toy executive said about the same thing as Howard awhile back.

But yeah there were definitely heated discussions and arguments after TLJ about sales with the ST people often falling back on the "we don't know HT numbers" argument.
 
I would say less so more recently, especially after some other high level toy executive said about the same thing as Howard awhile back.

But yeah there were definitely heated discussions and arguments after TLJ about sales with the ST people often falling back on the "we don't know HT numbers" argument.

Those people have been Order 66'd by Howard.
 
You won?t see me trying to defend the quagmire that is the continuity of all of Star Wars, from ESB contradicting ANH on.
It just further proves my overall point that post Disney Star Wars has no trouble crushing the OT to tell its nonsensical stories. The idea that there were two Jedi running around with the rebel alliance just a few years before ANH, contradicts everything that comes after it.

We definitely have room for some common ground on this section of your post.

With that said, I?m still not sure of what your point is. Yoda and Obi Wan were 2 well known Jedi and enemies of the Emperor which made them enemies of the galaxy. Whichever way you slice it, they would have some degree of difficulty operating in public without being mobbed by bounty hunters, stormtroopers, and whomever else. It?s also been fairly well established in the current canon Marvel comics that Obi Wan?s primary goal was watching over Luke anyway.

If Kenobi was that prone to being identified as a Jedi outlaw, why would he be so intimately familiar with Mos Eisley - a galactic hotspot for bounty hunters, scum, and villainy? And hanging out in such a nondescript outfit as his Jedi robes, no less. :lol

So my point is that Kenobi and Yoda would have been in equal danger of Imperial persecution as they were willing for Luke to be on his own. The fact that Kenobi has an actual verbal exchange with sandtroopers should be enough proof that Imperial troops probably haven't been prioritizing Jedi-spotting for a while (if they ever were at all). It's things like wielding a lightsaber that would draw that sort of attention. So, Kenobi and Yoda could've been doing the same things that Ezra and Kanan were doing since canon has both of them still aiding the Rebellion while pursued by Imperial Inquisitors. But they obviously sidelined themselves instead, and not just for a year or two.

I'm not sure how the logic of being outlawed exiles forced to stay away from the fight can be considered all that compelling given all the context I'm describing from the OT and post-Disney content. It's just a shoddily-constructed recontextualizing of Obi-Wan and Yoda that the PT perpetrated on the lore. But once it was added there, I think it sets a precedent that isn't as dissimilar to Luke as you'd like to make it seem.

And as to our potential common ground from earlier, I suspect we'll see Kenobi further exposing himself to Vader and/or other Imperial scrutiny in his upcoming titular Disney+ series. Maybe you and I can agree that this won't be a good thing when it comes to facilitating the most cohesive saga possible. I'm certainly expecting a bunch of unfortunate contradictions to spring up relative to the original OT inferences and overt story points.

It?s a pretty big leap to compare that to the most hopeful character in Star Wars going off to hide on an island all by himself because...failure.

I disagree because I never saw Luke as being impervious to guilt and other emotional weight that could supersede his hope and optimism. I don't believe that he was portrayed as so much the archetype that many try to paint him as. He was primarily impulsive and emotion-driven, and his loyalties to family made him conflicted (and perhaps even tormented). Had he somehow walked away from DS2 having failed to redeem his father, I don't think the Luke you'd see after that would fit the model of eternal hope, optimism, and perseverance. As Gary Kurtz noted before he passed away, Luke was originally intended to have an Eastwood-esque departure into the sunset that would've been more bittersweet and melancholy. That squares with his OT characterization for me.

There are other less important instances that cement his impulsiveness and shifts in attitude. When mind tricks aren't working on Jabba, Luke tries to shoot him with a blaster. When he's trying to avoid a violent conflict with his father, a reference to his sister makes him lash out with contrary vengeance. When he's stuck on Dagobah, he says things like "We'll never get out of here now." When assured of what the Force can do, he retorts with "You want the impossible."

I get that Luke is something different to different fans, but I assure you that my perception of him has been concurrent with 40 years of religiously following Star Wars. I'm not in any way contorting things to fit what I would otherwise perceive as unjust characterization in the ST. If you can understand that, perhaps you can allow that filmmakers might've had a different take on Luke than you without it meaning that they didn't love the movies, or didn't understand the character. Either way, I suspect we're just killing time here and not moving the needle in either direction. :)
 
So my point is that Kenobi and Yoda would have been in equal danger of Imperial persecution as they were willing for Luke to be on his own. The fact that Kenobi has an actual verbal exchange with sandtroopers should be enough proof that Imperial troops probably haven't been prioritizing Jedi-spotting for a while (if they ever were at all). It's things like wielding a lightsaber that would draw that sort of attention.

But did it really?

Bartender: "Hey Sandtroopers a guy in full JEDI ROBES just cut down one of my customers with a LIGHTSABER. And he's sitting RIGHT OVER THERE."

Sandtroopers: "All right we'll check it out."

*Sandtroopers casually walk over to Han's table and stare at him*

Sandtrooper: "So who talks first? Do we talk first? Does he talk first? I don't know, let's go get high."

Yeah Kenobi was clearly in imminent danger there. ;)
 
But did it really?

Bartender: "Hey Sandtroopers a guy in full JEDI ROBES just cut down one of my customers with a LIGHTSABER. And he's sitting RIGHT OVER THERE."

Sandtroopers: "All right we'll check it out."

*Sandtroopers casually walk over to Han's table and stare at him*

Sandtrooper: "So who talks first? Do we talk first? Does he talk first? I don't know, let's go get high."

Yeah Kenobi was clearly in imminent danger there. ;)

:lol :lol :lol
 
As a slight tangent but still following on from the discussion. Before the PT, when you first saw the OT did you ever wonder why Old Ben was just there on Tatooine and Yoda on Dagobah. Did you view them as sitting out the fight, hiding and reactively waiting for the Skywalker children or did you imagine something else? I saw the OT and PT so close together that I can?t really remember a time when it was just OT but I am curious to hear the thoughts of those who were there at the beginning and had years to meditate on this?
 
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