Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

The only thing that could improve Fett’s death would be if his legs caught fire when blasts off the sail barge

Exposing his white boxers with red hearts.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

You seem to be assuming that because I say that Jar Jar > Rose Tico that it's the same as saying Jar Jar = Good character. It isn't. I just think it's funny that even that spectacular doofus was a greater benefit to his allies than Rose was to hers.

We see this so differently.

The fact that the spectacular doofus was a great benefit to his allies is what makes the Jar Jar character even worse! Throughout the saga, people (and aliens) are dying while making a concerted effort to have even the most marginal/minor victory over the bad guys. That's an integral part of bringing a seriousness into Star Wars. Jar Jar did nothing but undermine that. His effectiveness at helping in the battle is a big part of the problem.

Tons of Rebels died throughout the SW saga with less imminent danger and peril all around them than what Jar Jar faced in the droid battle. But Jar Jar can bumble and goofball his way to effectively taking out droid soldiers and tanks as scores of less-incompetent Gungans lie dead all around him in his triumphant "WOO-HOO!" moment. Can the entire battle drama be undermined more effectively than that? Can there be a more insulting way to frame the struggle and sacrifice of the Rebels/Republic against a more formidable foe? And for what? For a laugh?

Jar Jar, and his goofily serendipitous triumphs, undermines the entire intended drama surrounding the struggle between the outnumbered "good guys" and the powerful "bad guys" in Star Wars. Jokes/humor is great in SW when it's simply an accentuation of the storytelling; but when the joke actually drives the storytelling and its outcomes, that's more sad than it is enjoyable. For me at least. Jar Jar was a joke (a bad one), and played the biggest role in turning that film (and the whole franchise at the time) into a joke.

We went from Biggs, Porkins, and many others dying while having no net positive tactical effect on their battlefield . . . to Jar Jar fumbling with bouncyball bombs, taking out droids and tanks with those, and coming out an unscathed hero. From tense battles and a depiction of the realistic sacrifices made in war, to a battlefield being the setup for a long-running punchline! I fail to see how the Rose character is in any way whatsoever more damaging to the integrity of the larger story than the Jar Jar character was. I don't particularly like Rose either, but I just can't see how that character was a more pathetic and insulting waste of screen space than Jar Jar.

Take Jar Jar out of EPI and we have a very differently unfolding story.

Oh, how I wish!!!

 

[YoNoSe]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Exposing his white boxers with red hearts.

*cue roadrunner*

 

[Mogli]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Full disclosure, I'm a big fan of the prequels.
I can see many faults and shortcomings, but I really like them. The overall story is great, the world-building is amazing, the designs, music, and themes are great.

Agree with that! I think the PT has bad stuff like acting/dialogue, but the designs and worlds can be pretty inspired, lately I've come to appreciate that even more lol

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

We see this so differently.

The fact that the spectacular doofus was a great benefit to his allies is what makes the Jar Jar character even worse! Throughout the saga, people (and aliens) are dying while making a concerted effort to have even the most marginal/minor victory over the bad guys. That's an integral part of bringing a seriousness into Star Wars. Jar Jar did nothing but undermine that. His effectiveness at helping in the battle is a big part of the problem.

Tons of Rebels died throughout the SW saga with less imminent danger and peril all around them than what Jar Jar faced in the droid battle. But Jar Jar can bumble and goofball his way to effectively taking out droid soldiers and tanks as scores of less-incompetent Gungans lie dead all around him in his triumphant "WOO-HOO!" moment. Can the entire battle drama be undermined more effectively than that? Can there be a more insulting way to frame the struggle and sacrifice of the Rebels/Republic against a more formidable foe? And for what? For a laugh?

Jar Jar, and his goofily serendipitous triumphs, undermines the entire intended drama surrounding the struggle between the outnumbered "good guys" and the powerful "bad guys" in Star Wars. Jokes/humor is great in SW when it's simply an accentuation of the storytelling; but when the joke actually drives the storytelling and its outcomes, that's more sad than it is enjoyable. For me at least. Jar Jar was a joke (a bad one), and played the biggest role in turning that film (and the whole franchise at the time) into a joke.

We went from Biggs, Porkins, and many others dying while having no net positive tactical effect on their battlefield . . . to Jar Jar fumbling with bouncyball bombs, taking out droids and tanks with those, and coming out an unscathed hero. From tense battles and a depiction of the realistic sacrifices made in war, to a battlefield being the setup for a long-running punchline! I fail to see how the Rose character is in any way whatsoever more damaging to the integrity of the larger story than the Jar Jar character was. I don't particularly like Rose either, but I just can't see how that character was a more pathetic and insulting waste of screen space than Jar Jar.

Well if Jar Jar was bumbling around like an idiot in ANH or ESB then yes I'd probably be as put off by him as you. But he's a TPM character and fits right in with the Nemoidans, Pod Racers, and all the other goofy stuff. If I didn't allow the Saga to get silly on an Episode by Episode basis then I'd have to disown ROTJ. But I've allowed for the fact that the seriousness and grittiness ebbs and flows depending on the film and not to get too worked up over that fact.

Otherwise I could even allow the mighty ANH to suffer in tone compared to RO. But eh, we all have our own rules as to what we'll accept, lol. Like we've said before only ANH and ESB are "perfect" and every movie since has had some bad to go with the good. With TPM I just have this weird fascination with the film partly because of how *unapologetically* absurd it is. The fact that all of the ridiculousness was carefully planned and storyboarded with Lucas seemingly completely oblivious as to how it might rub people the wrong way. So like Ash with the Alien or Keys with the Predator there's just a certain "purity" about TPM that I can't help but respect.

But with AOTC and ROTS I feel like George was trying to backpedal a bit against the audience backlash and give fans what he assumed they wanted and make things more serious and "cool." And to that end his failure was so profound that I can't help but just be embarrased to even watch them. To me TPM knows it's silly even if it doesn't anticipate how people will respond to the silliness. But with AOTC and ROTS being just as lame (IMO) while trying to be *cool?* Ugh, that just makes them so much worse to me.

Getting back to Rose...yes she speaks like a normal person (for the most part) and Kellie Tran delivers a fine performance for what she's given which is all well and good but I just find that what her character stands for and how she carries herself is just so damn annoying. And not in a good way.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Well if Jar Jar was bumbling around like an idiot in ANH or ESB then yes I'd probably be as put off by him as you. But he's a TPM character and fits right in with the Nemoidans, Pod Racers, and all the other goofy stuff. If I didn't allow the Saga to get silly on an Episode by Episode basis then I'd have to disown ROTJ. But I've allowed for the fact that the seriousness and grittiness ebbs and flows depending on the film and not to get too worked up over that fact.

Otherwise I could even allow the mighty ANH to suffer in tone compared to RO. But eh, we all have our own rules as to what we'll accept, lol. Like we've said before only ANH and ESB are "perfect" and every movie since has had some bad to go with the good. With TPM I just have this weird fascination with the film partly because of how *unapologetically* absurd it is. The fact that all of the ridiculousness was carefully planned and storyboarded with Lucas seemingly completely oblivious as to how it might rub people the wrong way. So like Ash with the Alien or Keys with the Predator there's just a certain "purity" about TPM that I can't help but respect.

But with AOTC and ROTS I feel like George was trying to backpedal a bit against the audience backlash and give fans what he assumed they wanted and make things more serious and "cool." And to that end his failure was so profound that I can't help but just be embarrased to even watch them. To me TPM knows it's silly even if it doesn't anticipate how people will respond to the silliness. But with AOTC and ROTS being just as lame (IMO) while trying to be *cool?* Ugh, that just makes them so much worse to me.

Getting back to Rose...yes she speaks like a normal person (for the most part) and Kellie Tran delivers a fine performance for what she's given which is all well and good but I just find that what her character stands for and how she carries herself is just so damn annoying. And not in a good way.

The fact that Lucas had to carefully plan and storyboard goofy elements makes it all the more odd to me that such a main part of the plot narrative was centered around a trade dispute and political machinations. I just don't get what he was going for, or if he even fully knew how silly and stupid so much of that movie was. Oh well. If you found some way to enjoy TPM on any level, then I don't want to keep peeing in your Cheerios. I'm glad there's some redemptive value in that movie for you.

In my case, when I saw the "anti-cheese" edit of TPM that had virtually eliminated Jar Jar and some other silliness, I was stunned by how much more watchable the movie was for me (even if some of the edits were jarringly disjointed). Even just having dubbed alien voices for the Neimoidians had a profound effect.

I'm okay with sporadic silliness in any SW movie, but it has to let up for longer than just a minute or two at a time. At some point, it crosses a threshold where it's no longer Star Wars. TPM crossed that line for me by a good margin, even much more than the other two prequel movies.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

The fact that Lucas had to carefully plan and storyboard goofy elements makes it all the more odd to me that such a main part of the plot narrative was centered around a trade dispute and political machinations. I just don't get what he was going for, or if he even fully knew how silly and stupid so much of that movie was. Oh well. If you found some way to enjoy TPM on any level, then I don't want to keep peeing in your Cheerios. I'm glad there's some redemptive value in that movie for you.

My Cheerios? Dude we're talking about The Phantom Menace, there's nothing you could say against it that I probably haven't said myself, lol. I just like certain parts of it anyway. Here's a quick test though to see how irrational your hate for TPM is vs. your love for TLJ: Who do you like better Rose Tico or Darth Maul? Keep in mind that you are under oath.

I've probably seen TLJ a dozen times since its release and still love it (or at least really, really like it.) Do I "love" TPM? No way. But I like it, and some things about it I even like more than certain things in TLJ.

I'm okay with sporadic silliness in any SW movie, but it has to let up for longer than just a minute or two at a time. At some point, it crosses a threshold where it's no longer Star Wars. TPM crossed that line for me by a good margin, even much more than the other two prequel movies.

Obviously I disagree. IIRC there is not one single location shot in ROTS. Not one! Even the final scene with baby Luke at Lars Homestead was green screen I believe. A Star Wars movie where literally every single shot was in a green room or on a sound stage. It has more in common with the "Wing Commander III" PC game than it does the OT IMO.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Here's a quick test though to see how irrational your hate for TPM is vs. your love for TLJ: Who do you like better Rose Tico or Darth Maul? Keep in mind that you are under oath.

Just in case there's any actual doubt: Darth Maul wins in a no-contest. I'll even go further. Rose is worse than all of these characters introduced in TPM: Qui-Gon, Padme, Shmi, Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, Panaka, and virtually any other non-CGI character with any speaking role.

My point of contention was limited to the suggestion that Rose was worse than Jar Jar; she's not - not by a longshot (in my book). And she's not worse than Boss Nass, the pod race announcer(s), or the Neimoidians. But I wouldn't even bother to dispute those last few because I could go either way. There's just no way any SW character will ever be worse than Jar Jar. Not in my world, anyway. That's where I draw the line.

Obviously I disagree. IIRC there is not one single location shot in ROTS. Not one! Even the final scene with baby Luke at Lars Homestead was green screen I believe. A Star Wars movie where literally every single shot was in a green room or on a sound stage. It has more in common with the "Wing Commander III" PC game than it does the OT IMO.

Now we're almost getting into a "who hates which prequel movie more?" contest. For the record, I think ROTS was really bad; but TPM had too much Jar Jar. And too much Jake Lloyd, Boss Nass, pod racing hijinks, Watto's accent, Neimoidian accents, and general absurdities. ROTS kept the absurdity to just beyond "intolerable" for me.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give ROTS a 6 and TPM a 4.5. For comparison, I give TLJ about an 8 and both ANH and ESB a perfect 10.

I hate the prequels more than you do!

 

[loki2371]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Now this is awesome!!!



But, ummm..... why is Luke a girl? No incest kiss in this version. rather LGBTQ friendly....

Other than that, very cool. Never saw this before. Someone also just did a trailer for an ANH anime cartoon. That's pretty cool too.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Now we're almost getting into a "who hates which prequel movie more?" contest.

Now you're talking!

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give ROTS a 6 and TPM a 4.5. For comparison, I give TLJ about an 8 and both ANH and ESB a perfect 10.

Okay those are crazy high scores for the PT, lol. TPM is probably a 5/10 that has *just* enough stuff that I like to give it a pass. But AOTC and ROTS? Probably 2's and 3's. So my average is much lower than yours.

Yes SW and ESB I give straight 10's, and depending on the day lean that way toward RO as well. But right now I'll go with a 9.5 just to separate it somewhat from the original two classics. Solo is #4 for me (a pity you skipped it!), maybe an 8.5. Or even 9. I freaking *love* that film. TFA and TLJ both 8's, maybe even 7.5 if I focus on their faults (which I prefer not to do obviously.) ROTJ a 7.5.

This is the only way Disney can spin things to not anger people or look dumb. They take the blame in the most minimalist way. The Media will eat it up like it's Gospel. There will be 1000 articles about why Solo failed now, just because people were too "tired" of SW. They're not gonna own up and say they put the wrong people in charge, Green lit lack luster boring stories, or admit that fans are upset the way we've handled the franchise and/or how certain Disney employees and the media have made the TLJ naysayers feel. They won't admit to trying to ostracize fans for 40+ years kinda back fired. So, they'll say /use the reason as SW fatigue. Simple and to the point.

One movie a year was a little too much. 4 movies in 4 years was too aggressive..... Meanwhile, SW fans spend money on crap like there's no tomorrow. And all the while the same company is pumping out 3 MCU movies a year, 20 movies in total so far in 10 years, and all have done well to extremely well, even the bland ones.

Two things:

1. "The MCU releases 3 movies a year and they're all successful" does not mean that that is the right approach for every franchise. Nothing is the MCU except the MCU.

2. You're spot on about Rian Johnson alienating the fans though. I was sympathetic to his position until he started openly calling the people who didn't like TLJ "manbabies" (while including footage of himself giggling and jumping around in a freaking *bounce castle* on the TLJ blu-ray) writing everyone off as toxic and what have you. And it's not that he was even wrong in certain instances, but I just found it so unprofessional and unclassy compared to every SW filmmaker who has faced criticism before him. I absolutely do not want him associated with this Saga ever again.

Even Jon Kasdan just tweeted that they weren't going for divisiveness with L3-37 and that they just thought it'd be funny to explore *why* certain bartenders would want droids nowhere near their premises, lol. Point is he just said what their intentions were without lashing out at the fans *at all.* Which is how Lucas, Abrams, and Edwards all acted before him. RJ not so much.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Okay those are crazy high scores for the PT, lol. TPM is probably a 5/10 that has *just* enough stuff that I like to give it a pass. But AOTC and ROTS? Probably 2's and 3's. So my average is much lower than yours.

Yes SW and ESB I give straight 10's, and depending on the day lean that way toward RO as well. But right now I'll go with a 9.5 just to separate it somewhat from the original two classics. Solo is #4 for me (a pity you skipped it!), maybe an 8.5. Or even 9. I freaking *love* that film. TFA and TLJ both 8's, maybe even 7.5 if I focus on their faults (which I prefer not to do obviously.) ROTJ a 7.5.

WOW!! I surrender! You clearly hate the PT even more than I do. Damn, 2's or 3's? On a scale of 1 to 10!? They're bad movies, dude, but they're still Star Wars. Yikes!

And you sure do love yourself some RO! I like it enough to give it a 7.5, but I actually fell asleep more than once watching it when it was on Netflix. And even in the theater there were some spots that had me checking my watch.

Thank you for providing your scores for all the movies. I dig knowing the exact disparity between them, and how much enjoyment or disappointment each movie provided. I'll be watching Solo next weekend, but I can be virtually certain that my score will not be anything close to the 8.5 to 9 range you've got it at.

And you're revulsion for the prequels is still astounding me! You are the king of PT antipathy; I can't compete.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I get what ajp is saying about ROTS being I guess easier to sit thru than TPM but I also see it as a severe course correction by Lucas who then failed miserably at creating serious drama which was just as bad as the TPM comedy.

Well I mean sure it had to go dark because of Anakin’s fall but it was rushed to help us forget the previous 2 lol

Remove Darth Maul final duel from TPM and it can’t compete with the so called “cool” moments present in ROTS so there’s that angle as well.

But ROTS in all of it’s seriousness starts to ironically enough unravel into it’s own version of a dramedy.

Meaning that Vader’s NO actually becomes MORE CRINGE WORTHY THAN EVEN JAR JAR!

I mean it’s Vader the # 1 cinematic vllain of all time reduced to Jar Jar levels!

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Okay, jye4ever makes too good of an argument about Vader in ROTS, so I'm going to drop my score to a 5.5 out of 10. Which still puts me at scoring it TWICE AS HIGH as Khev did! That level of disgust for AOTC and ROTS will take a while to fully sink in for me. I'm almost in awe.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Okay maybe AOTC and ROTS are 4's or 4.5's instead of a 2 or a 3 with a 2 for acting and writing, 4 for bringing down the lore, and 6 or even 6.5 for some of the fun bits (Geonosis arena, final Dooku duel.) Still a net negative overall though.

I'll be curious to see what you think of Solo ajp, though if there really was no aspect of the trailers that appealed to you even enough to warrant a single theatrical viewing then I'm guessing that at most you might give it a rating of "better than I was expecting but still not great," especially if you didn't love RO.

 

[xipotec]

Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Bob Iger falls on his sword for Kathleen Kennedy because he can't publicly fire a wahmen. Blames everything on "SW fatigue" bs.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/20/media/bob-iger-star-wars-slowdown/index.html

KK was a diversity hire. She proudly spoke of this. She can't be fired like a man would've been months ago. The Patriarchy needs to hurry up and tighten its grip.

Man....where to start? In realize your a card carrying member of the HeMan woman haters club, but allow me t enlighten you....
KK has been in this business making great films happen for longer then you have probably been shaving....

She began with Spielberg as far back as Raiders.....

Shes been a part of every major franchise including :

Jaws
Jurassic Park
Indiana Jones
Back to the Future
Star Wars (including all the films, not just TLJ...

Shes produced:

The sixth Sense
War Horse
War of the Worlds
AI
Twister
Roger Rabbit
Hook
Schindler’s List
Cape Fear
Goonies
Gremlins
ET
Poltergeist
Land before Time
Empire of the Sun


And you have the manly audacity to say shes a diversity hire?

Go find more youtube videos to support your crazy notion of what “diversity” means.

Because her success pedigree is better than almost any other producer around.....

Theres a tone more....read for yourself, instead of regurgitating the youtube hate over a single film.
https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0005086/filmotype/producer?ref_=m_nmfm_1


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[cerealkeller]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Man....where to start? In realize your a card carrying member of the HeMan woman haters club, but allow me t enlighten you....
KK has been in this business making great films happen for longer then you have probably been shaving....

She began with Spielberg as far back as Raiders.....

Shes been a part of every major franchise including :

Jaws
Jurassic Park
Indiana Jones
Back to the Future
Star Wars (including all the films, not just TLJ...

Shes produced:

The sixth Sense
War Horse
War of the Worlds
AI
Twister
Roger Rabbit
Hook
Schindler’s List
Cape Fear
Goonies
Gremlins
ET
Poltergeist
Land before Time
Empire of the Sun


And you have the manly audacity to say shes a diversity hire?

Go find more youtube videos to support your crazy notion of what “diversity” means.

Because her success pedigree is better than almost any other producer around.....

Theres a tone more....read for yourself, instead of regurgitating the youtube hate over a single film.
https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0005086/filmotype/producer?ref_=m_nmfm_1


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

[emoji144] thank you. I am too tired to even respond to him. The internet He Man Woman Hating Warrior....who in real life probably looks like McLovin.

Kathleen Kennedy is a great producer and was hired by Lucas before the sale. He trusted her implicitly with his creation because he knew she would at least respect his creation and take chances on younger filmmakers to get fresh voices making stories.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Python]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Regardless of what she may have been involved with in her past, she's doing a very poor job of handling the Star Wars franchise currently (gender isn't even relevant to this) And I doubt very much she is safe from being given the boot simply due to her sex either. I imagine she won't be there for too much longer.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I’m sure Kennedy and Lucas talk weekly and along with Iger and Horn they already have a plan in place for franchise leadership.

Disney has 80,000 employees they terminate female employees on a regular basis but at the higher executive level these so called contractual public image relationships i’m sure are subject to long term strategies.

Me personally I could care less if she stays or goes.

Not even Lucas knows how to make a good SW movie.

At the end of the day I go to bed stress free knowing that my masculinity wasn’t diminished by Holdo and Kennedy.

I mean how insecure do you have to be to worry about that crap on a daily basis sheesh.

 

[chewblacca]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I’ve been a Star Wars fan since 77, and although I’ve found some of these films both hit and miss after the OT I’ve realized that the powers that be managing Star Wars are going to do what they want regardless of of my feelings or monetary support. KK is doing what she thinks is a good direction for the franchise and although I think she’s missed the mark more than hit it I’m sure sooner or later Disney higher ups will see where the brand is heading and try to fix their 4 billion dollar investment.

 

[YoNoSe]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I'm much less interested in behind-the-scenes and just want to see the finished products.

TLJ was the smoothest production and my least favorite movie of New SW.