Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[spindrift]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

A couple months back I tried my hand at picturing myself in charge of the story with the task of course correcting while still keeping the events of TLJ as canon. What do you think:

Great stuff- too radical I think for what they have planned but excellent.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

The problem is TLJ cannot be "undone". JJ can try to move past it and fix certain elements, but he can't undo the damage Rian did to the franchise and the characters. He can't fix Luke for those that hated what Rian did to the character, he can't fix Rey & her Mary Sue personage and uber power from TFA to TLJ as Luke still didn't train her and yet she grew even more powerful in a day (sorry, Rey can't be more powerful or potentially more powerful than Anakin, and even Anakin was trained for 10+ years), he can't fix Admiral Ackbar's pointless insignificant background death... SO many thing that can't be "fixed".

He can try to steer the ship back on course, but can't undo the damage from the mines the ship hit due to Rian's lack of vision and incompetence of how Rian handled the SW franchise and it's beloved characters.. The damage is done.

Whether fans can get past said damage is another story. But I'm sure for many it'll be too little too late. Even if EPIX is good, it still can't remove the bitter taste left in the mouth from TLJ. Sorry, but seeing Lando return is pointless as we'll never be able to see him with Han, Luke or Leia. And scenes with Chewie don't cut it, and 3PO & R2 have already been upstaged by BB8 and relegated to background extras. I have no desire to see Lando become pals with Rey, Finn or Poe..

Rian Johnson didn't put Luke on that island after having spent years in exile because he felt responsible for what happened with his nephew. JJ did that. Is a-dev the only other person around here who understands that?

Rian Johnson didn't have Rey use mind tricks on a Stormtrooper and beat Kylo in a lightsaber duel before meeting a single Jedi. JJ did that.

Even C-3PO and R2 get mentioned in your post for being relegated to background extras. Were they not more prominent in TLJ than TFA!? Let's see: in TFA, C-3PO says hi and shows his red arm; in TLJ, he actually has several interactive scenes throughout the film. In TFA, R2 is "sleeping," or "in a coma," or . . . something; in TLJ, R2 has one of the best scenes of the ST in the Falcon with Luke.

But, yes, the unceremonious Ackbar death is all on Rian Johnson. He could've, and should've, done better with that. I agree.

I continue to be surprised by how many people forget that TFA established Luke as having turned away from everyone and everything he was supposed to care about. For years!! Can someone please explain to me how TLJ could have taken Luke and brought him back to being the "good ol' Luke" without completely making him look stupid for being gone all that time by just having some young girl show up and change his mind? Please give me a non-ridiculous scenario for bringing "good ol' Luke" back after he'd been set up in TFA as having left everyone behind just as the First Order was starting to assert their power in the galaxy (when he'd be needed the most).

And how did Rey become more powerful in TLJ? By lifting rocks? At least in her only power struggle with Kylo (the two of them fighting for control of the lightsaber), it was a draw. Unlike TFA, where she defeated Kylo soundly!

I guess it's just too much fun to crap on TLJ for everything people don't like about the ST; even when TLJ didn't actually create those scenarios that are being objected to.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Even C-3PO and R2 get mentioned in your post for being relegated to background extras. Were they not more prominent in TLJ than TFA!? Let's see: in TFA, C-3PO says hi and shows his red arm; in TLJ, he actually has several interactive scenes throughout the film. In TFA, R2 is "sleeping," or "in a coma," or . . . something

Totally hilarious when you put it that way.

Can someone please explain to me how TLJ could have taken Luke and brought him back to being the "good ol' Luke" without completely making him look stupid for being gone all that time by just having some young girl show up and change his mind? Please give me a non-ridiculous scenario for bringing "good ol' Luke" back after he'd been set up in TFA as having left everyone behind just as the First Order was starting to assert their power in the galaxy (when he'd be needed the most).

Well I gave explaining Luke's exile a shot on the previous page.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Rian Johnson didn't put Luke on that island after having spent years in exile because he felt responsible for what happened with his nephew. JJ did that. Is a-dev the only other person around here who understands that?

Rian Johnson didn't have Rey use mind tricks on a Stormtrooper and beat Kylo in a lightsaber duel before meeting a single Jedi. JJ did that.

Even C-3PO and R2 get mentioned in your post for being relegated to background extras. Were they not more prominent in TLJ than TFA!? Let's see: in TFA, C-3PO says hi and shows his red arm; in TLJ, he actually has several interactive scenes throughout the film. In TFA, R2 is "sleeping," or "in a coma," or . . . something; in TLJ, R2 has one of the best scenes of the ST in the Falcon with Luke.

But, yes, the unceremonious Ackbar death is all on Rian Johnson. He could've, and should've, done better with that. I agree.

I continue to be surprised by how many people forget that TFA established Luke as having turned away from everyone and everything he was supposed to care about. For years!! Can someone please explain to me how TLJ could have taken Luke and brought him back to being the "good ol' Luke" without completely making him look stupid for being gone all that time by just having some young girl show up and change his mind? Please give me a non-ridiculous scenario for bringing "good ol' Luke" back after he'd been set up in TFA as having left everyone behind just as the First Order was starting to assert their power in the galaxy (when he'd be needed the most).

And how did Rey become more powerful in TLJ? By lifting rocks? At least in her only power struggle with Kylo (the two of them fighting for control of the lightsaber), it was a draw. Unlike TFA, where she defeated Kylo soundly!

I guess it's just too much fun to crap on TLJ for everything people don't like about the ST; even when TLJ didn't actually create those scenarios that are being objected to.

Damn slam dunk lol

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Well I gave explaining Luke's exile a shot on the previous page.

I wasn't saying that Luke's exile needed a better explanation, just that it would have been stupid for him to all of a sudden change his mind and go back with Rey after having made a conscious decision to abandon everyone right when the First Order was threatening to become powerful enough to be a new Empire. Having some kid show up and get him to think "yeah, I guess I was wrong . . . needed you (a novice) to straighten me (a Jedi Master) out in my logic" would have been absurd. That's why I like that it was Yoda who finally convinced Luke to get back in the game. If Luke is going to be enlightened to more prudent wisdom than his own, then Yoda, Kenobi, or Anakin should be the only candidates. Not Rey.

As far as your ideas for the Rey/Luke/Kylo direction of Episode IX: I think it's intriguing, and I like a lot of it, but I know Star Wars fans well enough to realize that there'd be a ****storm if Luke could now give someone selective amnesia and replace years' worth of memories. Also, having Rey and Kylo be related just makes their apparent romantic interest in one another problematic. One trilogy with an incest angle should be enough.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

A couple months back I tried my hand at picturing myself in charge of the story with the task of course correcting while still keeping the events of TLJ as canon. What do you think:

I like it even with the extra mind wrangling needed to neatly tie it all together.

It’s either that or Rey is freaking Vader lol

Someone is going to be Vader reborn before this is over.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I wasn't saying that Luke's exile needed a better explanation, just that it would have been stupid for him to all of a sudden change his mind and go back with Rey after having made a conscious decision to abandon everyone right when the First Order was threatening to become powerful enough to be a new Empire. Having some kid show up and get him to think "yeah, I guess I was wrong . . . needed you (a novice) to straighten me (a Jedi Master) out in my logic" would have been absurd. That's why I like that it was Yoda who finally convinced Luke to get back in the game. If Luke is going to be enlightened to more prudent wisdom than his own, then Yoda, Kenobi, or Anakin should be the only candidates. Not Rey.

Absolutely!

I am so glad that it was Yoda, R2, and to a lesser extent ANH Leia that got Luke back in the game and not some new character.

As far as your ideas for the Rey/Luke/Kylo direction of Episode IX: I think it's intriguing, and I like a lot of it, but I know Star Wars fans well enough to realize that there'd be a ****storm if Luke could now give someone selective amnesia and replace years' worth of memories. Also, having Rey and Kylo be related just makes their apparent romantic interest in one another problematic. One trilogy with an incest angle should be enough.

Oh what's a sexual finger tip touch or two between cousins, lol.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I like it even with the extra mind wrangling needed to neatly tie it all together.

It’s either that or Rey is freaking Vader lol

Someone is going to be Vader reborn before this is over.

Oh yes I kid you not if Abrams doesn't go with my forced amnesia angle then I absolutely want to see Rey go full Friday the 13th Part II by finding Kylo's Vader shrine and putting on the mangled helmet in order to rattle him long enough to run him through, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

TFA Han was a droid, real Han shows up and shoots Kylo in the head.

Yoda turns out to be Palpatine.

Rey is Vader.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan saved Leia in space.

I’m done lol

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019



The vacuum of space shrunk Ackbar's gelatinous body down to 1/20th of its previous size. He rejoins the cast with a higher pitched voice, is even cuter than Baby Groot. "It's a twap!"

lol

 

[loki2371]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Rian Johnson didn't put Luke on that island after having spent years in exile because he felt responsible for what happened with his nephew. JJ did that. Is a-dev the only other person around here who understands that?

Rian Johnson didn't have Rey use mind tricks on a Stormtrooper and beat Kylo in a lightsaber duel before meeting a single Jedi. JJ did that.

Even C-3PO and R2 get mentioned in your post for being relegated to background extras. Were they not more prominent in TLJ than TFA!? Let's see: in TFA, C-3PO says hi and shows his red arm; in TLJ, he actually has several interactive scenes throughout the film. In TFA, R2 is "sleeping," or "in a coma," or . . . something; in TLJ, R2 has one of the best scenes of the ST in the Falcon with Luke.

But, yes, the unceremonious Ackbar death is all on Rian Johnson. He could've, and should've, done better with that. I agree.

I continue to be surprised by how many people forget that TFA established Luke as having turned away from everyone and everything he was supposed to care about. For years!! Can someone please explain to me how TLJ could have taken Luke and brought him back to being the "good ol' Luke" without completely making him look stupid for being gone all that time by just having some young girl show up and change his mind? Please give me a non-ridiculous scenario for bringing "good ol' Luke" back after he'd been set up in TFA as having left everyone behind just as the First Order was starting to assert their power in the galaxy (when he'd be needed the most).

And how did Rey become more powerful in TLJ? By lifting rocks? At least in her only power struggle with Kylo (the two of them fighting for control of the lightsaber), it was a draw. Unlike TFA, where she defeated Kylo soundly!

I guess it's just too much fun to crap on TLJ for everything people don't like about the ST; even when TLJ didn't actually create those scenarios that are being objected to.

I'm not a supporter of TFA or what JJ did. But I accepted it, waiting to see where it was headed. JJ hinted and made us believe that questions would be answered in TLJ. The why and how from what we saw in TFA. Johnson chose how to address or ignore those questions.

JJ literally made Rey as confused to how she could do these things as he did the audience. Rian did not answer that in TLJ, and yes Rey was even stronger in TLJ. Not just lifting rocks (which she never used the force for in TFA), she took on a bunch of highly trained guards, Snokes bodyguards, in the throne scene. Not a tired, injured (the foreshadowing of making chewies bowcaster sooo powerful), angry and then confused Kylo Ren who didn't expect Rey to do what she did. Remember, Rey looked confused when the lightsaber flew past Kylo and into her hands too. JJ had rey use the force more as a defense under duress/natural instinct, than learned abilities. Having a s ingle lightsaber come to your hand under extreme emotional duress is far different than giddy smiling as to lifting tons of rocks at a single time. Luke struggled with and could barely lift some rocks in ESB after weeks (months?) of training with Yoda. Luke failed because he couldn't "believe". Rey succeeded just because she did "believe"? Whatever...

And JJ created the mystery as to why and where Luke disappeared too. It was Rian who decided the reason was he turned his back on his friends and the Jedi, and went to the island to "die". And that Kylo fully turned evil and embraced the dark side cause uncle Luke tried to kill him in his sleep. None of that was in TFA nor even hinted at by JJ. That was all Rian Johnson. Just ass trying to get a cheap laugh at a very emotional scene of Rey handing Luke the lightsaber leaving us all gasping at the end of TFA. Rian's answer was to make it a gag joke and have him toss over his shoulder, not JJ.

And R2 was asleep, yes, I'm fine with that. But again, once Luke was back in the picture, R2 could've done more, as could 3PO. They are his droids, not Rey's or Finn's. They should have been featured more prominently in TLJ, as JJ may have intended with Luke's return. But again, Rian made them useless, not JJ.

I could go on and on....

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

It was Rian who decided the reason was he turned his back on his friends and the Jedi, and went to the island to "die". And that Kylo fully turned evil and embraced the dark side cause uncle Luke tried to kill him in his sleep.

That's not technically correct. The shock that Luke experienced in Ben's hut was the realization that Ben was already gone. Ben going crazy and attacking Luke and the other Jedi was in response to him seeing that the jig was up. Since then Kylo Ren has basically been the opposite of OT Luke which I find to be very interesting. Luke was tempted by evil and almost gave in to it but deep down was ultimately good. Kylo was twice tempted by *good* (on the bridge with Han and again with Rey in the throne room) and both times rejected it because he is at his core evil. Luke knew that on the island and tried to communicate that to Rey but she wouldn't listen.

 

[xipotec]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

There is and has always been an explanation for Rey.....

People don’t like it....

But it explains everything perfectly.

Shes a new kind of force user with innate abilities granted to her by the
Midichlorians. No training required.

Now folks will say, thats not how the Force works....but it could be new rules.

If there is one thing I have learned about most SW fans with this whole TLJ fiasco, is they want the rules to be obeyed..... they cannot take anything new or radically different.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[loki2371]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

That's not technically correct. The shock that Luke experienced in Ben's hut was the realization that Ben was already gone. Ben going crazy and attacking Luke and the other Jedi was in response to him seeing that the jig was up. Since then Kylo Ren has basically been the opposite of OT Luke which I find to be very interesting. Luke was tempted by evil and almost gave in to it but deep down was ultimately good. Kylo was twice tempted by *good* (on the bridge with Han and again with Rey in the throne room) and both times rejected it because he is at his core evil. Luke knew that on the island and tried to communicate that to Rey but she wouldn't listen.

No, as I remember, Luke saw Kylo's future through the force in a vision/dream as Kylo turning to evil. And believing that future to be absolute and unavoidable. Just like Luke's own vision of seeing his friends in pain and dying in ESB that led him to leave Dagobah and Yoda without finishing his training. Luke even asked Yoda if the visions would come to pass. Yoda's answer, "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future”. Which we also saw in EPIII with Anakin's visions of the death of Padme. Both their fear and actions caused those future visions to come to pass.

 

[loki2371]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

There is and has always been an explanation for Rey.....

People don’t like it....

But it explains everything perfectly.

Shes a new kind of force user with innate abilities granted to her by the
Midichlorians. No training required.

Now folks will say, thats not how the Force works....but it could be new rules.

If there is one thing I have learned about most SW fans with this whole TLJ fiasco, is they want the rules to be obeyed..... they cannot take anything new or radically different.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Maybe we should follow that philosophy in life too. Simply change the rules when ever it suits us. Everyone can live by their own ethical standards. That would be great for today's and future societies...

 

[Bravomite]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

I'm not a supporter of TFA or what JJ did. But I accepted it, waiting to see where it was headed. JJ hinted and made us believe that questions would be answered in TLJ. The why and how from what we saw in TFA. Johnson chose how to address or ignore those questions.

JJ literally made Rey as confused to how she could do these things as he did the audience. Rian did not answer that in TLJ, and yes Rey was even stronger in TLJ. Not just lifting rocks (which she never used the force for in TFA), she took on a bunch of highly trained guards, Snokes bodyguards, in the throne scene. Not a tired, injured (the foreshadowing of making chewies bowcaster sooo powerful), angry and then confused Kylo Ren who didn't expect Rey to do what she did. Remember, Rey looked confused when the lightsaber flew past Kylo and into her hands too. JJ had rey use the force more as a defense under duress/natural instinct, than learned abilities. Having a s ingle lightsaber come to your hand under extreme emotional duress is far different than giddy smiling as to lifting tons of rocks at a single time. Luke struggled with and could barely lift some rocks in ESB after weeks (months?) of training with Yoda. Luke failed because he couldn't "believe". Rey succeeded just because she did "believe"? Whatever...

And JJ created the mystery as to why and where Luke disappeared too. It was Rian who decided the reason was he turned his back on his friends and the Jedi, and went to the island to "die". And that Kylo fully turned evil and embraced the dark side cause uncle Luke tried to kill him in his sleep. None of that was in TFA nor even hinted at by JJ. That was all Rian Johnson. Just ass trying to get a cheap laugh at a very emotional scene of Rey handing Luke the lightsaber leaving us all gasping at the end of TFA. Rian's answer was to make it a gag joke and have him toss over his shoulder, not JJ.

And R2 was asleep, yes, I'm fine with that. But again, once Luke was back in the picture, R2 could've done more, as could 3PO. They are his droids, not Rey's or Finn's. They should have been featured more prominently in TLJ, as JJ may have intended with Luke's return. But again, Rian made them useless, not JJ.

I could go on and on....

"Case closed, end of, you all just got taken to padawan school" said 'Reverse Jye'

In all seriousness that's a great post Loki and agree with everything you said. TLJ had two moments I liked, the first with R2 manipulating Luke playing the Leia message from ANH and the second was Luke using the force projection power to outsmart Kylo (and most of the audience on first viewing) about the most Jedi thing you could do ... then he got tired and died which made it lame. The rest of the movie is style over substance, pretty images over continuity, established lore and good story telling.

There are many reasons that Luke could have been on that island. Here's one, he went to the first Jedi temple to find an ancient Jedi McGuffin which would be needed to defeat Snoke. Or to extrapolate on that, perhaps Snoke had been influencing people with the force (hence Luke's momentary lapse in judgement), Luke realising this took himself off the chess board (so he could not be used to cause more damage) hoping to learn an ancient Jedi technique from the first temple to allow him to block Snoke's force manipulation... I mean that's got to be better than going to the most unfindable place in the galaxy to die (and leaving a map to that location because [Rian Johnson shrugs shoulders])?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

Remember, Rey looked confused when the lightsaber flew past Kylo and into her hands too. JJ had rey use the force more as a defense under duress/natural instinct, than learned abilities. Having a s ingle lightsaber come to your hand under extreme emotional duress is far different than giddy smiling as to lifting tons of rocks at a single time. Luke struggled with and could barely lift some rocks in ESB after weeks (months?) of training with Yoda. Luke failed because he couldn't "believe". Rey succeeded just because she did "believe"? Whatever...

So, you're saying that it's better to have Rey use the Force to defeat Kylo when she's confused by it, and when it's all like "instinct"? So, mind-controlling Stormtroopers doesn't need to be a learned skill? Just . . . instinct? Reaching out for a lightsaber and having it fly into your hand is fine if it's . . . defense/instinct? I don't know how long Luke was with Yoda (but I like that he apparently kept taking the time to shave every single day even though it was just he and Yoda on a swamp planet), but he was lifting rocks (and R2, and boxes) while doing a handstand. If you're okay with Rey's "instincts" being a good enough explanation for her mind trick powers, lightsaber pulling, and Kylo-defeating ways in TFA, I find it odd that lifting rocks and beating Praetorian Guards in TLJ is what you have a problem with.

And JJ created the mystery as to why and where Luke disappeared too. It was Rian who decided the reason was he turned his back on his friends and the Jedi

Wrong. Go back and watch what Han says to Rey and Finn about Luke's reason for abandoning everyone and everything. "He felt responsible" for what happened with Kylo and "walked away from everything" (or something to that effect).

And that Kylo fully turned evil and embraced the dark side cause uncle Luke tried to kill him in his sleep.

Wrong. Kylo was being seduced by Snoke long before Luke lit that lightsaber in Ben's hut. You might want to watch both films again; the answers are there.

 

[Khev]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

No, as I remember, Luke saw Kylo's future through the force in a vision/dream as Kylo turning to evil. And believing that future to be absolute and unavoidable. Just like Luke's own vision of seeing his friends in pain and dying in ESB that led him to leave Dagobah and Yoda without finishing his training. Luke even asked Yoda if the visions would come to pass. Yoda's answer, "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future”. Which we also saw in EPIII with Anakin's visions of the death of Padme. Both their fear and actions caused those future visions to come to pass.

The visions of the future were a byproduct of the fact that Ben was already lost.

"I'd sensed it building in him, I'd seen in it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside and it was beyond what I'd ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart."

You should give it another watch.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

There are many reasons that Luke could have been on that island. Here's one, he went to the first Jedi temple to find an ancient Jedi McGuffin which would be needed to defeat Snoke. Or to extrapolate on that, perhaps Snoke had been influencing people with the force (hence Luke's momentary lapse in judgement), Luke realising this took himself off the chess board (so he could not be used to cause more damage) hoping to learn an ancient Jedi technique from the first temple to allow him to block Snoke's force manipulation... I mean that's got to be better than going to the most unfindable place in the galaxy to die (and leaving a map to that location because [Rian Johnson shrugs shoulders])?

Did everyone just stop watching TFA after the opening crawl? Han explains to Rey and Finn that Luke "walked away" from everyone/everything because "he felt responsible" for what happened with his nephew. Rian Johnson couldn't just pretend that wasn't the set-up. And Luke didn't "leave a map" so that he could be found. If he had, that would be laughably stupid for so many reasons.

 

[loki2371]

Re: Star Wars: Episode IX - December 20, 2019

So, you're saying that it's better to have Rey use the Force to defeat Kylo when she's confused by it, and when it's all like "instinct"? So, mind-controlling Stormtroopers doesn't need to be a learned skill? Just . . . instinct? Reaching out for a lightsaber and having it fly into your hand is fine if it's . . . defense/instinct? I don't know how long Luke was with Yoda (but I like that he apparently kept taking the time to shave every single day even though it was just he and Yoda on a swamp planet), but he was lifting rocks (and R2, and boxes) while doing a handstand. If you're okay with Rey's "instincts" being a good enough explanation for her mind trick powers, lightsaber pulling, and Kylo-defeating ways in TFA, I find it odd that lifting rocks and beating Praetorian Guards in TLJ is what you have a problem with.



Wrong. Go back and watch what Han says to Rey and Finn about Luke's reason for abandoning everyone and everything. "He felt responsible" for what happened with Kylo and "walked away from everything" (or something to that effect).

Agreed. JJ wrote Luke "felt" responsible. Rian told/showed us "why" Luke felt responsible.


Wrong. Kylo was being seduced by Snoke long before Luke lit that lightsaber in Ben's hut. You might want to watch both films again; the answers are there.

Kylo was being influenced through manipulation by Snoke.... Somehow. But how? For HOW long? Force visions, Force skyping with Snoke like Kylo & Rey in TLJ? Why did Kylo believe anything Snoke told/showed him over Mom, Dad, and Uncle Luke. Why did he believe in Snoke and the First Order's oppression of the galaxy, rather than the freedom achieved by the Rebellion, and again, Mom Dad and Uncle Luke? Why didn't he talk to Uncle Luke or Mom about Grandpa Vader? For some reason he believed Snoke and chose his influences over people he knew his whole life... Again, whatever. JJ set up, Rian gave us no answers/logical reasons. Maybe JJ would have?

Again, whatever... BAD storytelling. Vader was meant to be a mystery. The ultimate villain in the OT. The Antagonist. Kylo is a main protagonist in the ST. Info is needed, not to be left as simple mystery.