Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[abake]

The duel was an extension of the story between those two characters. It had actual meaning and purpose. And it served the plot by being a transition point for Kenobi and Luke. The way fans perceive how lightsaber duels "should" play out now is just one more thing I blame the PT for ruining about SW. It has become much more superficial.

Fans now want/expect twirling and flips, and Force-tossing opponents. They apparently even want straight-up punching now. I prefer the nobility of the traditional sword fight that LS duels were in the OT. The '77 duel was slow and lumbering, but that was always okay with me because those were supposed to be two veteran warriors, with a deep personal history, having one final confrontation. What they'd be *thinking and feeling* mattered. It wasn't supposed to be a rage fest to show off skills and superpowers.

Vader stalking Kenobi, and taking measure of his old master should make sense to people. Kenobi buying as much time as he can, knowing that he's outmatched, should make sense to people. There's no story-telling need for flips and ****.

Now fans seem to want these Jedi and Sith to act as much like cb superheroes/villains as possible. It makes me wonder why even have lightsabers at all then? Why not go full-on Force superpower duels? With JJ being the crowd-pleaser that he is, I can only hope he doesn't give in to that.

Completely agree with your assessment of the ANH duel, it is the way it should be. A no-nonsense contest between two grizzled, wary opponents. Whether it happened that way by plan or due to the limitations of the time is irrelevant.
However, I don't agree about the PT ruining lightsaber fights. Again, I think they play out exactly as they should, with a lot of energy and flourishes, if you will. Notice how quick and efficient the Jedi dispatch opponents who do not wield lightsabers; there are no flourishes, there's no messing around, usually just the quickest swipe or thrust to end everything quickly. However, when faced with a lightsaber wielding opponent, they really get into it, using every means at their disposal to gain an advantage.
That the "fans" want everything to look like that now is a problem of the fans, not of the PT.

 

[ShadowX81]

Personally my favorite lightsaber duel is the Darth Maul one at the end of The Phantom Menace. Especially when Obi Wan and Maul duel each other after Qui-Gon is struck down. Seemed to hit the perfect balance for me in terms of being visually impressive but still not the over the top to the point of silliness spectacle that happened in ROTS.

 

[TaliBane]

The ROTS saber battle with the lava seemed to last for about 45 minutes. It just went on and on...

I do think that one of the people dueling needs to be a bit scary/bad-*** for the duel to be cool. That's where the PT suffers - so many participants are either goofy (Greivous) or bores (Dooku, Anakin, Obi etc) or at least not scary. Yoda could have been cool but he never felt more than a CGI animation to me.

 

[aussiebottt]

Both TFA and TLJ have been so disappointing in terms of lightsaber duels. I hope TLJ steps it up a notch. Sadly it'll probably be nowhere near as energetic as then duels from the prequel trilogy.

 

[ironwez20]

The Mustafar battle was amazing and went with the music so well. It was like a battle in hell. A bit unrealistic tho considering that they should’ve collapsed from the intense heat and the gas from the volcano. But this is Star Wars tho so who cares

 

[Captain Clown]

Does this take place before or after Empire?

 

[xipotec]

The OT duels are fine. Really , there is no need to go back and “tinker” with old films.....GL did it an look what we got out of that....crap. If you want to restore an old print thats one thing, but adding a more realist CGI shark for Jaws will no zero to add to that film....OT should have been left alone.

Likewise, I think the sabers were ment to be heavy, like the blades had some resistance to them when you swung them. The familiar hum we know, always struck me as the blades forcing themselves through the air under a powerful swing.

PT took all that away making them “wiffle bat” light , which takes away the gravity of the blade and made them seem stupid IMO.

ST actually brought back that heavy approach to sabers, which I really liked. Though not quite as heavy as OT they seemed to regain some of the gravity they had.
This

And this

NOT this

And this

Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[greedo737]

Personally my favorite lightsaber duel is the Darth Maul one at the end of The Phantom Menace. Especially when Obi Wan and Maul duel each other after Qui-Gon is struck down. Seemed to hit the perfect balance for me in terms of being visually impressive but still not the over the top to the point of silliness spectacle that happened in ROTS.

https://youtu.be/J0mUVY9fLlw

 

[Otomofan]

I remember in interviews with either Hamill or Lucas, way back, while shooting "The Star Wars" the idea was that it was supposed to be really heavy and like balancing a spinning gyroscope, so it took both hands to wield. Obviously that didn't stay canon for long.

Forget where I read it. It's likely in "Secret History of Star Wars" somewhere.

 

[ajp4mgs]

That is exactly my problem. Dooku vs Yoda: Lucas topped his stupid idea of Yoda fighting using a lightsaber by having a choreographer who doesn't understand that the point of a sword fight is to try and actually hit your opponent. Dooku would have never hit Yoda even if Yoda did not strike his blade in defense.
Same with Anakin vs Obi-Wan. Most of the swings would have never even hit their opponent. They twirled around like dancers and at no point did it look like either were in danger of being hit by a lightsaber. It was silly and stupid and completely takes me out of the movie. And I like ROTS, but I like the emotion of the fight with words (as poorly written as it was). That created tension, then they started twirling their light sticks around like a rave. Ugh


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Bingo!! The PT saber duels (like so much of the prequels) were designed for aesthetics first, and story logic or OT consistency be damned. The PT duels played more like circus acts than actual realistic combat. And it's just one of the reasons why they had very little storytelling value. To enjoy the PT lightsaber duels, you have to turn off your brain.

Watching Yoda jump around like a coked-up Spider-Man, and then pick up his cane and limp away, should be enough to tell you all you need to know about what Lucas wanted from the PT lightsaber duels.

The saber strikes in the OT duels had much more purpose behind them. In general, each of those battles told their own mini story while also each serving as a culmination to what had been built up during the larger story. They built tension methodically, and provided a storytelling payoff. You can keep your brain working and still enjoy the OT duels immensely.

I can watch the OT duels over and over again, until the end of time, and always marvel at how effective they were in telling a story.

https://youtu.be/J0mUVY9fLlw

I can't thank you enough for posting that link! I'd never seen that video before, and holy crap did it get me lol'ing.

It was a bit unfair in terms of over-critiquing fight choreography, but my sides were *literally* hurting from laughing so hard.

 

[rushmore223]

https://youtu.be/J0mUVY9fLlw

Fantastic!

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[greedo737]

I aim to please [emoji4]

 

[ironwez20]

Damn y’all really think the ST fights are better than the PT fights. Wow. The few lightsaber battles we had were awful. Like swinging a electric bat

 

[jye4ever]

That video lolololol

 

[rushmore223]

That video lolololol

Pythonesque, well approaching at least.

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[Khev]

George: "People swinging their swords 20 inches from their enemy's face, audiences have never seen that before and I think they're going to love it," lol.

 

[Prime Clone]

The PT duels played more like circus acts than actual realistic combat.

There's an element of theater in martial arts, wouldn't you say? And when two opponents are evenly matched, it can come off as showmanship when they're actually testing or trying to intimidate each other.

I’m reminded of the Mountain v the Viper in GoT. Part of the Viper’s MO was showmanship, to distract his opponent and delight the crowd (though it ultimately proved his undoing).

 

[aussiebottt]

I think some certain people here are looking for things that don't exist. Like saying the duels in the OT are telling a story and a mini story and then a mini mini story with each blow and parry, with apparently so much drama and tension etc whilst at the same time claiming that you need to disengage your brain to watch a much more complete and much more sophisticated duel from the prequel trilogy. The choreography of the PT is simply superior. Maybe if you can't appreciate all that complexity then you're better off watching something more low-brow like Spaceballs.

 

[ajp4mgs]

There's an element of theater in martial arts, wouldn't you say? And when two opponents are evenly matched, it can come off as showmanship when they're actually testing or trying to intimidate each other.

I’m reminded of the Mountain v the Viper in GoT. Part of the Viper’s MO was showmanship, to distract his opponent and delight the crowd (though it ultimately proved his undoing).

I don't know what sort of theater you're referring to in martial arts. I certainly see plenty of theatricality and showmanship in *demonstrations* (such as those for bojutsu), but wouldn't expect it in any actual combat.

If a combatant in an actual sword duel took time to needlessly twirl himself or his sword "for show" during the fight, that dude would be begging to get hurt or killed. And that's what I see in the PT duels. A lot of useless and silly theatrics just to make the duel look "cool," but actually making it quite stupid in terms of storytelling and common sense (at least to me).

Lightsaber duels were supposed to be a matter of life or death. The PT versions turn them into too much of a spectacle (and even an embarassing kind) with little practical value. Fun for the eyes, but not for the brain.

I think some certain people here are looking for things that don't exist. Like saying the duels in the OT are telling a story and a mini story and then a mini mini story with each blow and parry, with apparently so much drama and tension etc whilst at the same time claiming that you need to disengage your brain to watch a much more complete and much more sophisticated duel from the prequel trilogy. The choreography of the PT is simply superior. Maybe if you can't appreciate all that complexity then you're better off watching something more low-brow like Spaceballs.

So, in your opinion, the PT duels are a better representation of how combat would play out if "laser swords" and Jedi were real? A better representation of how a Jedi/Sith duel-to-the-death would play out?

Is that "superior choreography" the kind that was on display in that hilarious video posted about The (Phantom) Menace?

 

[rushmore223]

I think some certain people here are looking for things that don't exist. Like saying the duels in the OT are telling a story and a mini story and then a mini mini story with each blow and parry, with apparently so much drama and tension etc whilst at the same time claiming that you need to disengage your brain to watch a much more complete and much more sophisticated duel from the prequel trilogy. The choreography of the PT is simply superior. Maybe if you can't appreciate all that complexity then you're better off watching something more low-brow like Spaceballs.

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