Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Ropen]

Lololl

https://youtu.be/_my7sx-0GPs


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[ajp4mgs]

So in a nut shell, nothing makes sense.

Or everything makes sense . . . from a certain point of view.

Qui-Gon learned it; but couldn't master it.

Kenobi built on that, with Qui-Gon's guidance, and took it to the next level.

Yoda, the most powerful Jedi of all, mastered it and took it up a few more notches.

Now time to see how Luke uses it.

 

[a-dev]

After this conversation I'm now imagining Obi-Wan walking into The Afterlife Bar, looking for a similar sized ghost and saying ''I need your robes, your boots and your Speeder''

 

[Khev]

And then ghost Dexter Jettster says "well it depends on how big your....heh heh heh...pocket book is."

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Now time to see how Luke uses it.

1. Get more delicious milk

2. Play catch with daddy

3. Spy on Rey and Kylo

4. Take ghost selfi with Han and Leia

5. Play Chucky

 

[jye4ever]

After this conversation I'm now imagining Obi-Wan walking into The Afterlife Bar, looking for a similar sized ghost and saying ''I need your robes, your boots and your Speeder''

And then ghost Dexter Jettster says "well it depends on how big your....heh heh heh...pocket book is."

Holy crap lulz


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[TaliBane]

Force ghosts aren't just "regular" ghosts/spirits. The Force ghost, as Lucas himself went on to define it, is the result of a learned skill. Jedi don't just die and automatically get a ghost form simply because they were "good people."

A Force ghost is like an extension of the living being, still maintaining a definite link to the physical world. The visual representation of that has existed since 1977. When Kenobi gave himself to the Force and disappeared, he apparently took his boots and belt (since Vader stepped on just a robe and a lightsaber). When Yoda "died," his clothes and necklace disappeared with him too. Same with Luke and his clothes, and his robotic hand.

All the way back to ANH, Kenobi said that the Jedi existed for a thousand generations. That would be around 25,000 years of Jedi. Imagine if all of them automatically got to have Force ghosts after they died; wouldn't they have helped guide the Jedi Council? Wouldn't they show up whenever a Jedi could use their tutelage?

One of the smartest things Lucas did with the PT was establish the Force ghost as the manifestation of a learned Force ability. When Obi-Wan tells Vader in ANH that he'll become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine," it makes more sense that being a Force ghost is something that Vader (full of Force knowledge) couldn't possibly imagine . . . because it had never been done before.

That was kind of an overstatement given all he ever really did was become a sort of occasional guardian/mentor for Luke - as in, what he already was in life - who'd (rarely) show up at a critical moment to give some fleeting advice. He does nothing concrete at all to really help the rebellion in its greatest time of need in either ESB or ROTJ. What he should have said to Vader is "if you strike me down, I'll step in from time to time, but not be powerful enough to do anything to stop you directly."

I'm guessing Vader can imagine quite a bit more than that from what Ben tauntingly says to him.

Ben's manifestation as a force ghost is not exactly the greatest demonstration of it as a "learned skill" that leads to becoming "more powerful than you can possibly imagine." The reality is, whatever Lucas retconned later, the idea of a force ghost in the OT really is in practice like what various cultures know as a loved one living on after death to show up at births or moments of great anguish to comfort or warn you. That is, a regular ghost.

So this "skill" thing gets pretty sketchy because in practice it leads to no greater powers than what a regular ghost has. Until we get to TLJ.

Or everything makes sense . . . from a certain point of view.

Qui-Gon learned it; but couldn't master it.

Kenobi built on that, with Qui-Gon's guidance, and took it to the next level.

Yoda, the most powerful Jedi of all, mastered it and took it up a few more notches.

Now time to see how Luke uses it.

You mean because he didn't help Luke or the rebellion in their greatest time of need during ROTJ but then suddenly shows up 35 years later to give Luke a slap and knock down a tree? This is what I mean - what a silly, random, useless power.

And Yoda "took it up a few more notches" from Ben - who also did nothing directly to help the rebellion?

This is what I mean - "more powerful than you can possibly imagine"? That brings to mind kind of what Luke does in TLJ using the projection thing (another total nonsense idea that defies any Leland Chee-ist Twitter explanation) - yet nothing of the sort happens with any of the force ghosts.

The question I have is if ghosts exist in the SW universe in the way they do for various cultures in the real world (ie person dies but returns to those they know at times of great stress), how are they all that different from what Ben or Yoda do? Couldn't Greedo have returned as a "regular" ghost to provide strength during his daughter's depression or advice following his son becoming a father?

 

[ajp4mgs]

That was kind of an overstatement given all he ever really did was become a sort of occasional guardian/mentor for Luke - as in, what he already was in life - who'd (rarely) show up at a critical moment to give some fleeting advice. He does nothing concrete at all to really help the rebellion in its greatest time of need in either ESB or ROTJ. What he should have said to Vader is "if you strike me down, I'll step in from time to time, but not be powerful enough to do anything to stop you directly."

I'm guessing Vader can imagine quite a bit more than that from what Ben tauntingly says to him.

If Vader had no clue that Obi-Wan (or anyone) could commune with the living after death, I think that Kenobi being able to reach out to Luke when he's piloting an X-Wing in order to help him blow up the Death Star would seem like quite an impressive (and powerful) ability.

I also think it stands to reason that Obi-Wan didn't know what exactly would be possible for him in his Force ghost form. No matter what, it would be a fair characterization that immortality itself (with the ability to interact with the living world) would qualify as "more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

As a learned skill, Force ghosts would work like any other Force ability: the more learned/powerful the user, the more they can get out of that particular Force ability. Could Kenobi have lifted Luke's X-Wing from the Dagobah swamp? Maybe not; even though Obi-Wan also had telekinetic abilities. But Yoda clearly could, and might've had more of a mastery of that same basic ability. So too, Yoda's mastery of a Force ghost ability could exceed whatever Kenobi was capable of.

Ben's manifestation as a force ghost is not exactly the greatest demonstration of it as a "learned skill" that leads to becoming "more powerful than you can possibly imagine." The reality is, whatever Lucas retconned later, the idea of a force ghost in the OT really is in practice like what various cultures know as a loved one living on after death to show up at births or moments of great anguish to comfort or warn you. That is, a regular ghost.

So this "skill" thing gets pretty sketchy because in practice it leads to no greater powers than what a regular ghost has. Until we get to TLJ.

If Ben and Yoda were anything similar to our conventional understanding of ghosts, then why did Lucas show their bodies disappear upon "death?" Why would clothing and accessories disappear along with them? I think the visual and contextual clues are pretty obvious in the OT: Lucas was pointing to Obi-Wan and Yoda passing their living forms into another dimension of the Force. It was meant to be extraordinary. GL didn't have Anakin disappear from within Vader's costume at the end of ROTJ; and that was for a reason, right?

As Khev pointed out earlier, if Vader was slaughtering Jedi in the lead-up to ANH, he wouldn't have seemed surprised when Kenobi vanished. Vader's boot feeling out the fallen robe was a clear visual representation that Obi-Wan had done something Vader hadn't encountered before. Logic tells us that the vanishing of a body isn't what happened when he'd killed Jedi before. Obi-Wan did something new and different. That seems like a reasonable extrapolation to me.

After the OT, Luke became only the third Jedi to disappear upon "dying." Plenty of Jedi died in the PT, but none of them disappeared. I don't think Ben vanishing in ANH, and Yoda doing the same in ROTJ, was ever meant to merely convey how the death of a powerful Jedi would normally play out. It was a visual element that had contextual and meaningful purpose. That purpose was made more explicit in the PT.

You mean because he didn't help Luke or the rebellion in their greatest time of need during ROTJ but then suddenly shows up 35 years later to give Luke a slap and knock down a tree? This is what I mean - what a silly, random, useless power.

And Yoda "took it up a few more notches" from Ben - who also did nothing directly to help the rebellion?

This is what I mean - "more powerful than you can possibly imagine"? That brings to mind kind of what Luke does in TLJ using the projection thing (another total nonsense idea that defies any Leland Chee-ist Twitter explanation) - yet nothing of the sort happens with any of the force ghosts.

The question I have is if ghosts exist in the SW universe in the way they do for various cultures in the real world (ie person dies but returns to those they know at times of great stress), how are they all that different from what Ben or Yoda do? Couldn't Greedo have returned as a "regular" ghost to provide strength during his daughter's depression or advice following his son becoming a father?

That's just it, though: why would ghosts exist in the SW universe? Do they actually exist visually here in our reality, regardless of culture? Do they sit on logs to have a chat? Do some people's bodies disappear when they die?

As far as I know, Jesus is the only cultural/religious example of anyone disappearing upon death in a context that isn't universally regarded as fiction. And then Jesus goes on to have a spirit form that the living can see, yet Jesus as a "ghost" doesn't directly influence worldly events. Sound familiar?

The reason Ben and Yoda were extraordinary examples is because the idea of "ghosts" was in itself extraordinary. Luke wasn't being visited by his mother, or Uncle Owen, or Aunt Beru. There's no reason to believe that actual ghosts existed in SW, or that they interacted with living beings before Obi-Wan and Yoda. We never saw (or even knew of) any in spite of the Jedi having existed for a thousand generations.

 

[xipotec]

There is a clone wars episode that explains all this. Last season, Yoda learns the ability to become one with the force.

Very enlightening.

And as in life, in force after life, the jedi have different powers.

Yoda could interact with the previous world directly, where traitor/loser Obi could not.....as it should be.

Now lets see what Luke can manage as one with the force.......



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Khev]

I also think it stands to reason that Obi-Wan didn't know what exactly would be possible for him in his Force ghost form. No matter what, it would be a fair characterization that immortality itself (with the ability to interact with the living world) would qualify as "more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

I agree. In that moment he became more powerful than death itself. If Vader had never imagined that to ever be a possibility then Ben's words were true. It always seemed pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[ZE_501]

[...]If Ben and Yoda were anything similar to our conventional understanding of ghosts, then why did Lucas show their bodies disappear upon "death?" Why would clothing and accessories disappear along with them? I think the visual and contextual clues are pretty obvious in the OT: Lucas was pointing to Obi-Wan and Yoda passing their living forms into another dimension of the Force. It was meant to be extraordinary. GL didn't have Anakin disappear from within Vader's costume at the end of ROTJ; and that was for a reason, right?

Come to think of it, if I'm remembering right, wasn't Qui Gon the first to pull off being Ghost-y or am I imagining it? If so, why didn't his body vanish?

[...]That's just it, though: why would ghosts exist in the SW universe? Do they actually exist visually here in our reality, regardless of culture? Do they sit on logs to have a chat? Do some people's bodies disappear when they die?[...]

I know Lucas pulled heavily from Eastern philosophy and belief systems, I wonder if it had anything to do with the Buddhist phenomenon/belief regarding the 'rainbow body' which takes a couple of different forms. One excerpt from the Wikipedia entry:

"Exceptional practitioners are held to realize a higher type of rainbow body without dying. Having completed the four visions before death, the individual focuses on the lights that surround the fingers. His or her physical body self-liberates into a nonmaterial body of light (a Sambhogakāya) with the ability to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion."


If the 'four visions' are not completed before death, the body of a sufficiently enlightened practitioner disappears nonetheless.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_body

 

[ZE_501]

Now all I see is a naked old Obi just wearing a belt and boots.

And a pumpkin.

 

[a-dev]

Come to think of it, if I'm remembering right, wasn't Qui Gon the first to pull off being Ghost-y or am I imagining it? If so, why didn't his body vanish?

My explanation is because he's non-canon.

 

[Ropen]

Hopefully they pay importance to a black kyber crystal


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[jye4ever]

The Odin Force sat on a rock in Thor 3 lol


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[TaliBane]

If Vader had no clue that Obi-Wan (or anyone) could commune with the living after death, I think that Kenobi being able to reach out to Luke when he's piloting an X-Wing in order to help him blow up the Death Star would seem like quite an impressive (and powerful) ability.

I also think it stands to reason that Obi-Wan didn't know what exactly would be possible for him in his Force ghost form. No matter what, it would be a fair characterization that immortality itself (with the ability to interact with the living world) would qualify as "more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

As a learned skill, Force ghosts would work like any other Force ability: the more learned/powerful the user, the more they can get out of that particular Force ability. Could Kenobi have lifted Luke's X-Wing from the Dagobah swamp? Maybe not; even though Obi-Wan also had telekinetic abilities. But Yoda clearly could, and might've had more of a mastery of that same basic ability. So too, Yoda's mastery of a Force ghost ability could exceed whatever Kenobi was capable of.



If Ben and Yoda were anything similar to our conventional understanding of ghosts, then why did Lucas show their bodies disappear upon "death?" Why would clothing and accessories disappear along with them? I think the visual and contextual clues are pretty obvious in the OT: Lucas was pointing to Obi-Wan and Yoda passing their living forms into another dimension of the Force. It was meant to be extraordinary. GL didn't have Anakin disappear from within Vader's costume at the end of ROTJ; and that was for a reason, right?

As Khev pointed out earlier, if Vader was slaughtering Jedi in the lead-up to ANH, he wouldn't have seemed surprised when Kenobi vanished. Vader's boot feeling out the fallen robe was a clear visual representation that Obi-Wan had done something Vader hadn't encountered before. Logic tells us that the vanishing of a body isn't what happened when he'd killed Jedi before. Obi-Wan did something new and different. That seems like a reasonable extrapolation to me.

After the OT, Luke became only the third Jedi to disappear upon "dying." Plenty of Jedi died in the PT, but none of them disappeared. I don't think Ben vanishing in ANH, and Yoda doing the same in ROTJ, was ever meant to merely convey how the death of a powerful Jedi would normally play out. It was a visual element that had contextual and meaningful purpose. That purpose was made more explicit in the PT.



That's just it, though: why would ghosts exist in the SW universe? Do they actually exist visually here in our reality, regardless of culture? Do they sit on logs to have a chat? Do some people's bodies disappear when they die?

As far as I know, Jesus is the only cultural/religious example of anyone disappearing upon death in a context that isn't universally regarded as fiction. And then Jesus goes on to have a spirit form that the living can see, yet Jesus as a "ghost" doesn't directly influence worldly events. Sound familiar?

The reason Ben and Yoda were extraordinary examples is because the idea of "ghosts" was in itself extraordinary. Luke wasn't being visited by his mother, or Uncle Owen, or Aunt Beru. There's no reason to believe that actual ghosts existed in SW, or that they interacted with living beings before Obi-Wan and Yoda. We never saw (or even knew of) any in spite of the Jedi having existed for a thousand generations.

You are too literal in your interpretations of this stuff and in so doing overlook the most powerful, core appeal of SW. You keep forgetting - SW is about a dream reality. That's where ghosts DO exist in our world - in the same state of mind that believes in aliens, demons and other supernatural entities and realities. I would guarantee that hundreds of millions of people 100% believe in one of these phenomna and would claim to have direct experience with them. Is that not "real"? Belief (to differing degrees) in this is a key attribute of all human minds. This fact is what makes SW so hauntingly resonant.

And Ben doesn't help Luke blow up the Death Star - he simply asks him to trust his feelings. It's not like suddenly the fighter turns on its own and the computer turns off and Ben's invisible hand launches and guides the torpedo. In Luke's mind, was it really Ben's voice speaking to him, or a powerful sense of connection to Ben's being and teachings - no different to people "connecting" to a dead parent or loved one in a fraught moment (that feels real but everyone including them would doubt it after the fact)?

The key appeal of Ben's living on for the audience is our collective sense of the supernatural, our experience of it (either directly or through our culture.) Turning it into a superpower beyond that of a ghost as we know it is just pointless, because it goes beyond the point of what the story element's appeal to the audience is. Ben's ghost is like our own father or loved one connecting to us beyond the grave in a heightened moment (was that really his ghost, or did I imagine it to get me through the experience?), it's not some silly learned skill. That's just GL losing the plot years later.

This is one of the key issues with much about the ST - is it fundamentally misunderstands the appeal of its most powerful elements and builds on them in the wrong ways. Like the difference between sci-fi and myth.

And Ben not knowing about what his abilities might be as aforce ghost doesn't excuse the fact that they were nothing like "more powerful" than Vader could imagine - especially in a universe of space wizards with a thousand generations or wizarding ways. "I can choke people to death at a distance of ten miles but I"M SHOCKED people can live on after death." Ben taking control of the fighter and literally heklping Luke blow up the death star - now THAT is powerful. (Seeming to) inspire Luke is nothing more than a ghost in our reality can purportedly do.

And the showing of bodies disappearing (wildly inconsistently - Ben leaves his undies behind, Yoda takes the lot, Anakin/Vader leaves everything, yet all equally end up in that Ewok village, all clothed no less) is again tapping into our deeply personal sense of magic in our world - that loved ones are special, and their death is different to other people's. Obviously nobody literally disappears, but that's... literal.

This elevation of force ghosts as a jedi skill (beyond simply as ghostly personal spirit guides to Luke) to me is like force projection - it's deeply problematic because it calls into question why these "powers" weren't used earlier. Why Yoda didn't force project to help save a (surely dead) Luke on Bespin, or as a force ghost help the rebellion in their greatest need in the ROTJ battle. He shows up 35 years later to fell a tree - yippee! Felling an ATST or helping take down the Emperor would have been better.

Same with Ben - if these were POWERS, where the hell was he when those powers were needed? Remember "help me Obi Wan Kenobi"? Why didn't Ben force-project to Alderaan from his hut in ANH to tell them about the plans and Leia, why didn't he as a force ghost directly aid the rebellion in ESB or ROTJ? If these are powers, why don't they manifest to everyone and kick some *ss?

It's simply because these are three very special people to Luke and they are his spirit guides and symbols after death, just the way loved ones are to us - they don't have super powers, but they can reach deeply into us to bring out our best, and that can make them seem alive. But no - today, with everything and everyone having unearned superpowers, even our deceased loved ones do too.

I agree. In that moment he became more powerful than death itself. If Vader had never imagined that to ever be a possibility then Ben's words were true. It always seemed pretty cut and dry to me.

But we're in a world where people can move objects with their minds and other crazy powers - is (a kind of) life after death really that outside the realm of believability to someone like Vader, especially if its as benign as Ben's force ghost actions were? As I said above "I can choke people to death at a distance of ten miles, move clouds of massive objects around with my mind, but I"M SHOCKED jedis can live on as sorta-ghosts."

 

[xipotec]

You are too literal in your interpretations of this stuff and in so doing overlook the most powerful, core appeal of SW. You keep forgetting - SW is about a dream reality. That's where ghosts DO exist in our world - in the same state of mind that believes in aliens, demons and other supernatural entities and realities. I would guarantee that hundreds of millions of people 100% believe in one of these phenomna and would claim to have direct experience with them. Is that not "real"? Belief (to differing degrees) in this is a key attribute of all human minds. This fact is what makes SW so hauntingly resonant.

And Ben doesn't help Luke blow up the Death Star - he simply asks him to trust his feelings. It's not like suddenly the fighter turns on its own and the computer turns off and Ben's invisible hand launches and guides the torpedo. In Luke's mind, was it really Ben's voice speaking to him, or a powerful sense of connection to Ben's being and teachings - no different to people "connecting" to a dead parent or loved one in a fraught moment (that feels real but everyone including them would doubt it after the fact)?

The key appeal of Ben's living on for the audience is our collective sense of the supernatural, our experience of it (either directly or through our culture.) Turning it into a superpower beyond that of a ghost as we know it is just pointless, because it goes beyond the point of what the story element's appeal to the audience is. Ben's ghost is like our own father or loved one connecting to us beyond the grave in a heightened moment (was that really his ghost, or did I imagine it to get me through the experience?), it's not some silly learned skill. That's just GL losing the plot years later.

This is one of the key issues with much about the ST - is it fundamentally misunderstands the appeal of its most powerful elements and builds on them in the wrong ways. Like the difference between sci-fi and myth.

And Ben not knowing about what his abilities might be as aforce ghost doesn't excuse the fact that they were nothing like "more powerful" than Vader could imagine - especially in a universe of space wizards with a thousand generations or wizarding ways. "I can choke people to death at a distance of ten miles but I"M SHOCKED people can live on after death." Ben taking control of the fighter and literally heklping Luke blow up the death star - now THAT is powerful. (Seeming to) inspire Luke is nothing more than a ghost in our reality can purportedly do.

And the showing of bodies disappearing (wildly inconsistently - Ben leaves his undies behind, Yoda takes the lot, Anakin/Vader leaves everything, yet all equally end up in that Ewok village, all clothed no less) is again tapping into our deeply personal sense of magic in our world - that loved ones are special, and their death is different to other people's. Obviously nobody literally disappears, but that's... literal.

This elevation of force ghosts as a jedi skill (beyond simply as ghostly personal spirit guides to Luke) to me is like force projection - it's deeply problematic because it calls into question why these "powers" weren't used earlier. Why Yoda didn't force project to help save a (surely dead) Luke on Bespin, or as a force ghost help the rebellion in their greatest need in the ROTJ battle. He shows up 35 years later to fell a tree - yippee! Felling an ATST or helping take down the Emperor would have been better.

Same with Ben - if these were POWERS, where the hell was he when those powers were needed? Remember "help me Obi Wan Kenobi"? Why didn't Ben force-project to Alderaan from his hut in ANH to tell them about the plans and Leia, why didn't he as a force ghost directly aid the rebellion in ESB or ROTJ? If these are powers, why don't they manifest to everyone and kick some *ss?

It's simply because these are three very special people to Luke and they are his spirit guides and symbols after death, just the way loved ones are to us - they don't have super powers, but they can reach deeply into us to bring out our best, and that can make them seem alive. But no - today, with everything and everyone having unearned superpowers, even our deceased loved ones do too.



But we're in a world where people can move objects with their minds and other crazy powers - is (a kind of) life after death really that outside the realm of believability to someone like Vader, especially if its as benign as Ben's force ghost actions were? As I said above "I can choke people to death at a distance of ten miles, move clouds of massive objects around with my mind, but I"M SHOCKED jedis can live on as sorta-ghosts."

Dude , I love your SW diatribe posts....very good reads.....

But let me put your mind to rest on at least one thing.

You ask “why didnt previous jedi use for projection, or the Jedi “ghosts” previously interfere physically with the world...”

Its simple . They did not know how to.

Yoda was taught how to force ghost by Qui Gon, whom he said he communed with after death. From what we know, only Qui Gon, Yoda, Ben and Luke, learned how to survive after death. Anakin ? Cannot explain that aside from the “happy ending” GL wanted.

Force projection is the same. Ben and Rey , as the new generation, have tapped into a new way of communicating through the force. Luke learned to project himself with it as well.

Its kinda weird to think all the jedi had only certain powers and they all were exactly the same. I do think it makes sense that the trained jedi at the temples might be limited to what they were taught, and as a result had a narrow view of their powers.

“Wild” jedi , uncorrupted by the scholarly teaching and dogma of the jedi, might just be able to do alot of things the formerly trained jedi didn’t learn, know , of even think of. Qui Gon, being a rebel and outcast of sorts, was a natural to have discovered the force ghost secret. I also happen to believe Palps knew a bit of this trick as well, and its why we will see hom return, as a force ghost that can manipulate the real world. My guess is we will see he is behind the corruption of Kylo and the scene where Luke doubts himself and thinks of killing Kylo.

Having a new generation learn thing the previous did not is common throughout history, We see this in modern life as well.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Khev]

The Odin Force sat on a rock in Thor 3 lol

And don't forget SW holograms that need to sit too, lol.

 

[TaliBane]

Dude , I love your SW diatribe posts....very good reads.....

But let me put your mind to rest on at least one thing.

You ask “why didnt previous jedi use for projection, or the Jedi “ghosts” previously interfere physically with the world...”

Its simple . They did not know how to.

Yoda was taught how to force ghost by Qui Gon, whom he said he communed with after death. From what we know, only Qui Gon, Yoda, Ben and Luke, learned how to survive after death. Anakin ? Cannot explain that aside from the “happy ending” GL wanted.

Force projection is the same. Ben and Rey , as the new generation, have tapped into a new way of communicating through the force. Luke learned to project himself with it as well.

Its kinda weird to think all the jedi had only certain powers and they all were exactly the same. I do think it makes sense that the trained jedi at the temples might be limited to what they were taught, and as a result had a narrow view of their powers.

“Wild” jedi , uncorrupted by the scholarly teaching and dogma of the jedi, might just be able to do alot of things the formerly trained jedi didn’t learn, know , of even think of. Qui Gon, being a rebel and outcast of sorts, was a natural to have discovered the force ghost secret. I also happen to believe Palps knew a bit of this trick as well, and its why we will see hom return, as a force ghost that can manipulate the real world. My guess is we will see he is behind the corruption of Kylo and the scene where Luke doubts himself and thinks of killing Kylo.

Having a new generation learn thing the previous did not is common throughout history, We see this in modern life as well.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Figuring this stuff is fascinating - we're doing the work that not many people take the time to do; really debate and reason this out (it's tricky, because it's both real world logic and also what works in a fantasy/myth story world and why). I like getting into it because it's hard to articulate exactly why so much of this ST stuff feels so wrong to me. I still have to read through ajp's explanations for the Holdo thing and force projection in the other thread.

But I like what you're saying in the abstract until you get to that "thousand generations" thing - this stuff isn't technological, so it's hard to say "welp, nobody thought of iphones in 1920..." Like a bunch of practitioners sitting/meditating at a temples for thousands of years; like feudal japan with Samurais crossed with Tibetan monks, trying different things, honing various abilities over hundreds of different eras, battles, adversaries etc etc

Just seems odd that SO many Jedis went down the pike and yet only a few at the VERY end figured this stuff out. Finding the lost book/s kinda helps with this logic, but then not - why no other books, or paper, or ANY writing implement seen in the OT? In OT SW people don't use that stuff (like NEVER, even once) - then suddenly they do? Or did?

 

[ironwez20]

And don't forget SW holograms that need to sit too, lol.

I use to read toyfare as a child. I wonder what happened. We need something like this today