Sacrificing yourself to save another is not suicide.
Just saying.
When a character is depicted as bitter, deeply depressed and at the end of their rope - and passes up other opportunities to save people, then picks the only option that has a 100% probability of killing him (under ajp's rules that is) - then yes, it is indeed suicide. Perhaps best described as choosing a convenient noble act to facilitate something you already clearly had in mind.
That's just *my* take on it (and I could be very wrong), but yeah, that's what I'm saying. However, most of my view is based on something we've been debating for days now, and disagree on: whether Force ghosts exist as an ability that a Jedi can learn to use. Since you don't regard the Force ghost as a learned skill, you're just going to have to indulge me and my contrary point of view for the rest of this post.
I do think the learned skill thing also messes with the "deserved" nature of being a force ghost. In theory, ANYONE could therefore become a force ghost under the "learned ability" model.
As I've said, while its deeply resonant to us because it taps into the importance/belief in ghosts across all cultures, the force ghost thing also taps into religious ideas of the eternal afterlife - ie. it's reserved for those who "deserve" it. Ben and Yoda were righteous (well, other than a few little white lies
,) so they lived on in the afterlife. Vader repents at the very end so becomes righteous, so he lives on in the afterlife too.
THAT's what we're supposed to take away from it, not that someone was clever enough or lucky enough to be taught the skill.
It's EARNED by the actions we took in life.
Maybe that can sort of place it into the "learned skill" aspect - that we learn to do good and disavow evil, even at the end, then we get this gift of life after death? That's not what you mean though.
Overall to me, this "learned skill" thing in regards to force ghosts just feels so Wookiepedia, West End games and Pablo Hidalgo. And to me it betrays the mythic power behind these OT ideas - and also very clearly demonstrates why everything after the OT has largely failed the lasting cultural impact test (ie stuff that has all the trappings of SW, even makes money like SW, but has 5% of the cultural impact.)
And honestly - how on earth could that force ghost skill possibly be learned if so few Jedi have ever done it?
People focus on the idea of "but no other Jedi was a force ghost..." seemingly forgetting that in the OT, Yoda, Ben, Vader/Anakin and Luke are the ONLY Jedis/ex-Jedis we see. We intellectually understand there were other Jedi before, but they are offscreen and long ago, so it is mysterious - perhaps areas that could/should not be expanded on, and the minute you expand on it (not really for story/myth reasons, more to expand an IP brand franchise for dollar reasons) you ruin the illusion.
The closest thing I've seen on screen to an intangible Jedi who can still interact with the living world is indeed a Force ghost. Luke would've likely been taught that ability (by Yoda, Kenobi, or Qui-Gon) during his time as a Jedi Master (before he shut himself off from the Force). Luke's Force projection in TLJ could've therefore been a modified version of what he learned during that time. He could've used his knowledge/mastery of the Force to figure out a way to project a more "real" version of what a Force ghost would be (without the blueish glow, semi-transparency, etc.), but in the living world.This works for me because it would: 1.) answer the question of why no Jedi had used it before, 2.) require lethal consequences (necessitated by having to transfer some sort of "life essence" to generate a quasi-ghost), 3.) not need to be an entirely new Jedi power, and 4.) explain how Kylo was aware of it (by virtue of having been Luke's student and nephew).
But again - these things are apples and oranges. Force-projecting a hologram of yourself across the galaxy may "technically" be what a force ghost is, but an important difference: you're not DEAD. Well, not yet anyway.
When you're dead it's different, right? This is where the rules become so bent that they aren't really rules anymore.
You're saying that Luke was not only somehow "taught" how to live on AFTER DEATH but then "modified" that lesson to create a sort of personal hologram... that is useful as a ruse but also kills you. It's a weird, muddled combo.
I really have no idea why this force projection thing would have to have such fatal consequences and be conflated with something as massive and sacred as life after death - it's more like a visual trick done at great distance, a much more elaborate version of Ben's tricks on stormies.
I mean Luke appears as a somewhat realistic hologram in Jabba's palace and Palps even more so in ESB 35-40 years earlier (holograms no better FOUR decades later?) Wouldn't it be better to technologically refine that than to kill THE LAST JEDI by "organically" producing a better-resolution version of the same gag?
If you accept the premise that I just outlined, then Luke would've essentially invented Force projection himself, and he'd be at least somewhat aware of what he'd be capable of in terms of maintaining his projection (duration) and what it would entail (full scope).
Luke was essentially saying goodbye to his sister. He wanted that "real" moment with her. And for the audience, it would provide (hopefully) a powerfully resonant moment. Why didn't he tell Leia about his plan? Because he was keeping tabs on Rey, and everything depended on Rey and Chewie anyway. Until Rey showed up, where was Leia going to take her crew? Aboard what ship? Even if Leia cleared the rocks, fleeing on foot would've ultimately been futile.
Even if Poe hadn't realized what was happening (culminating his TLJ arc), Rey would still need to come fetch her friends in that cave. And Luke could've kept the projection going long enough to give Rey the time to do it.
But even if he's keeping tabs on Rey, why on earth would Luke keep his plan from Leia? Why not just say, "hey here's what's going on"? Any way you slice it, it makes no sense AT ALL to not tell her (and yes, even offscreen so it's kept as an audience surprise.) It is so unbeliavbly random that Poe just happens to figure it out ("culminating his TLJ arc"??) - what if he didn't? Why leave it to chance? Luke's death would have been for nothing.
Yeah, obviously the scene was designed as a farewell, but the whole thing's such a muddle in terms of who knows what and rules for what's going on that I found it diffcult to take in. It's this muddle of dyed beards, Hoth re-do imagery, useless rebels... and then Luke dies after doing something we have no context for whatsoever. All in service of a reveal that's more confusing than satisfying.
And again, I'm not saying that all of this including force projection couldn't be made to work, and work well, and movingly. It's just as-presented is what I mean.
Well, that's how I see it. But I'll accept whatever LFL comes up with
when they eventually define the particulars of Force projection "officially." I only bothered to come up with my own explanation in the first place because people kept objecting to the Force projection on the basis of this, that, and the other thing. If I could resolve those objections for myself, then I can simply dismiss them entirely going forward. And so I do.
It's been almost two years and Pablo's still working on it.
Figuring this stuff is fascinating - we're doing the work that not many people take the time to do; really debate and reason this out (it's tricky, because it's both real world logic and also what works in a fantasy/myth story world and why). I like getting into it because it's hard to articulate exactly why so much of this ST stuff feels so wrong to me. I still have to read through ajp's explanations for the Holdo thing and force projection in the other thread.
