Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[ajp4mgs]

And honestly - how on earth could that force ghost skill possibly be learned if so few Jedi have ever done it?

You'll have to watch the CW cartoon to see how it started. I'm guessing that you're not interested in doing that, though.

And again, I'm not saying that all of this including force projection couldn't be made to work, and work well, and movingly. It's just as-presented is what I mean.

The Force projection didn't/doesn't work for you, and you have your own very legit reasons why. I can appreciate that. But we've been focusing on the "how" it would work, while I care much more about the "why" it was used. The projection is a punctuation to the whole Luke narrative in TLJ.

Luke had wanted to become what his father could've been if not for falling into the trappings of the Dark Side. He succeeded at that from ROTJ onward, but only to find himself eventually echoing the mistakes of his mentors, Obi-Wan and Yoda. He concluded that Jedi hubris was largely to blame because they treated the Force as almost a proprietary thing.

Luke decided to exile himself in an effort to end the Jedi (and thereby the Jedi/Sith dynamic). That was way more palpable to me than "Luke is sulking because his nephew turned on him" (which is all we were told in TFA). All of the scenes with Rey in TLJ were meant to bring Luke back (figuratively) *slowly* so that his exile wouldn't come across as knee-jerk and lacking emotional maturity.

When Rey got through to Luke, he reconnected with the Force. He then saw/felt his sister in serious peril. He rushed out to go back with Rey, only to find her connecting with Kylo. Rey leaves, but Yoda returns to complete Luke's rebound. Ultimately, Luke uses his complete mastery of the Force to help save people, even from across the galaxy, without shedding any blood. It was used to return Luke to the principles and mindset he'd evolved to at the end of ROTJ.

The logistics of Force projection (much like the logistics of any Force ability) don't matter to me as much as the fact that Luke Skywalker used it to end up being the absolute epitome of what Yoda had taught him (and us) that a true Jedi should be.

"You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

"A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away . . . to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things."

It's been almost two years and Pablo's still working on it.

I'd prefer if he never bothers to attach specifics to it. Much like the Force lightning that played a major role at the end of ROTJ, it's a power that hadn't been seen before, and one that can elicit tons of questions. Is Force lightning something that can be used at any time? Is it limitless, or does it ever need to be "recharged?" Why would Palpatine teach it to Dooku, but not to Vader? Does it weaken the user, or can he basically be a lightning-firing machine?

I agree with TaliBane that Yoda nuking trees 35 years later is problematic but I also agree with ajp that Force ghosting is a learned skill.

I'll take it!

 

[Khev]

I'll take it!

And while TaliBane's comment that Force projection was "a ruse that kills you" (lol!) was freaking hilarious I don't think it's quite that severe in all circumstances. I think that if Luke had Force projected himself across the island or to another planet in his same system that it would have been taxing but not lethal. I think extended system to system projection is where it gets dangerous but was his only choice since his X-Wing was inoperative.

 

[Bravomite]

You'll have to watch the CW cartoon to see how it started. I'm guessing that you're not interested in doing that, though.



The Force projection didn't/doesn't work for you, and you have your own very legit reasons why. I can appreciate that. But we've been focusing on the "how" it would work, while I care much more about the "why" it was used. The projection is a punctuation to the whole Luke narrative in TLJ.

Luke had wanted to become what his father could've been if not for falling into the trappings of the Dark Side. He succeeded at that from ROTJ onward, but only to find himself eventually echoing the mistakes of his mentors, Obi-Wan and Yoda. He concluded that Jedi hubris was largely to blame because they treated the Force as almost a proprietary thing.

Luke decided to exile himself in an effort to end the Jedi (and thereby the Jedi/Sith dynamic). That was way more palpable to me than "Luke is sulking because his nephew turned on him" (which is all we were told in TFA). All of the scenes with Rey in TLJ were meant to bring Luke back (figuratively) *slowly* so that his exile wouldn't come across as knee-jerk and lacking emotional maturity.

When Rey got through to Luke, he reconnected with the Force. He then saw/felt his sister in serious peril. He rushed out to go back with Rey, only to find her connecting with Kylo. Rey leaves, but Yoda returns to complete Luke's rebound. Ultimately, Luke uses his complete mastery of the Force to help save people, even from across the galaxy, without shedding any blood. It was used to return Luke to the principles and mindset he'd evolved to at the end of ROTJ.

The logistics of Force projection (much like the logistics of any Force ability) don't matter to me as much as the fact that Luke Skywalker used it to end up being the absolute epitome of what Yoda had taught him (and us) that a true Jedi should be.

"You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

"A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away . . . to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things."



I'd prefer if he never bothers to attach specifics to it. Much like the Force lightning that played a major role at the end of ROTJ, it's a power that hadn't been seen before, and one that can elicit tons of questions. Is Force lightning something that can be used at any time? Is it limitless, or does it ever need to be "recharged?" Why would Palpatine teach it to Dooku, but not to Vader? Does it weaken the user, or can he basically be a lightning-firing machine?



I'll take it!

eek sorry to quote the whole lot but I believe that Vader could not use force lightning on account of his metal appendages and many circuits which would be screwed up by using force lightning.

Just one point which seems to be getting glossed over in this discussion but force skype and force projection are not the same thing ... I think. So when Kylo says to Rey that she can't be force skype'n them otherwise the effort would kill her, that wasn't a set up for force projection causing Luke to die - they appear as two separate abilities.

Also it was established that Snoke must be force skype'n Rey and Kylo (he must be a very bombard powerful not jedi not sith to do that and not die) earlier in the movie but after his tongue stickyouty death scene Rey and Kylo skyped again... who skyped them that time? Presumably they did but if so, why didn't the effort kil them?

 

[ajp4mgs]

And while TaliBane's comment that Force projection was "a ruse that kills you" (lol!) was freaking hilarious I don't think it's quite that severe in all circumstances. I think that if Luke had Force projected himself across the island or to another planet in his same system that it would have been taxing but not lethal. I think extended system to system projection is where it gets dangerous but was his only choice since his X-Wing was inoperative.

But then why would Kylo tell Rey that the mere effort would kill her? For all he knew, she was aboard the Raddus with everyone else (until he "sensed" Luke with her seconds later).

Also it was established that Snoke must be force skype'n Rey and Kylo (he must be a very bombard powerful not jedi not sith to do that and not die) earlier in the movie but after his tongue stickyouty death scene Rey and Kylo skyped again... who skyped them that time? Presumably they did but if so, why didn't the effort kil them?

Was Snoke really dead?

In all seriousness, Rey and Kylo became kinda "mind/Force linked." Not projecting each other.

 

[pixletwin]

And while TaliBane's comment that Force projection was "a ruse that kills you" (lol!) was freaking hilarious I don't think it's quite that severe in all circumstances. I think that if Luke had Force projected himself across the island or to another planet in his same system that it would have been taxing but not lethal. I think extended system to system projection is where it gets dangerous but was his only choice since his X-Wing was inoperative.

Nono. It was sucide. He wanted to check out of existence. Had not hing to do with lack of transport because, you know, after his talk with Yoda he was even more suicidal n stuff.




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[Khev]

Nono. It was sucide. He wanted to check out of existence. Had not hing to do with lack of transport because, you know, after his talk with Yoda he was even more suicidal n stuff.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Just one point which seems to be getting glossed over in this discussion but force skype and force projection are not the same thing ... I think. So when Kylo says to Rey that she can't be force skype'n them otherwise the effort would kill her, that wasn't a set up for force projection causing Luke to die - they appear as two separate abilities.

Sorry I missed this. You're right that Force Skype and Force projection are not the same thing. But Kylo had no clue what Force Skype was. When Snoke explains that "it was I who bridged your minds," that's when Kylo figured out what was happening.

When Kylo references the "effort would kill you," he's referring to Force projection. That's why he follows it up by (correctly) concluding that "this is something else."

EDIT: And just to reiterate: I don't think Kylo would have any clue how close/far Rey was when he assumed that she might be projecting herself to him. Yet he still said that the effort would kill her. She could've been right next door on the Raddus, for all he knew. I think full context is important.

 

[Khev]

But then why would Kylo tell Rey that the mere effort would kill her?

Assumedly because he knew she wasn't a master and therefore couldn't handle even minor projections for any length of time.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Assumedly because he knew she wasn't a master and therefore couldn't handle even minor projections for any length of time.

Fair enough (even though she seemed to master just about everything ).

I'm still clinging to Force projection being lethal no matter what because I hate the idea of it being used to "cheat" without the user suffering any consequences. I prefer limits placed on the "magic." But if LFL/canon sticks with your theory, I'll be fine with it.

 

[Khev]

Fair enough (even though she seemed to master just about everything ).

I'm still clinging to Force projection being lethal no matter what because I hate the idea of it being used to "cheat" without the user suffering any consequences. I prefer limits placed on the "magic." But if LFL/canon sticks with your theory, I'll be fine with it.

See that's where Yoda and the tree crosses the line IMO. I know you said that it was an inconsequential empty tree at that point but really, if the dude can summon physical lightning then he can summon lightning. Which begs the question as to why he hasn't been zapping bad guys since Day One.

I think George's original idea that if Force Ghosts actually interacted physically with someone that it would be a one time "Valeria" style encounter and then their spiritual energy would be expired and they'd disappear forever. Obviously that wasn't the case with Yoda and the tree.

Having said all that though I still love his interaction with Luke in TLJ, in fact it's one of my favorite post-ROTJ scenes.

Unfortunately:

 

[ajp4mgs]

See that's where Yoda and the tree crosses the line IMO. I know you said that it was an inconsequential empty tree at that point but really, if the dude can summon physical lightning then he can summon lightning. Which begs the question as to why he hasn't been zapping bad guys since Day One.

That's why I love Luke's dialogue/narration in the TROS trailer, when he says (more or less) "We have taught you all we can; this is your fight now."

That's perfect! It harkens back to Obi-Wan telling him that he can't interfere in Luke's battle with Vader. Some things need to be done by the living. And it also feeds into GL's preference/plan to make the third trilogy more about legacy and generational learning. The masters pass the baton; the students have to do the actual running.

 

[jye4ever]

Assumedly because he knew she wasn't a master and therefore couldn't handle even minor erections for any length of time.

Wait what....

Not even The Rise of Skywalker



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[TaliBane]

And while TaliBane's comment that Force projection was "a ruse that kills you" (lol!) was freaking hilarious I don't think it's quite that severe in all circumstances. I think that if Luke had Force projected himself across the island or to another planet in his same system that it would have been taxing but not lethal. I think extended system to system projection is where it gets dangerous but was his only choice since his X-Wing was inoperative.

But once you toss out ajp's rule/theory that ANY usage of force projection kills you (which I actually sort of prefer - though how do you learn how to use something that kills you with even one usage?) you revert to versions of the Wookiepedia official bandwidth-as-dangerous rule/theory: "length/distance of experience is what kills you." Which seems to sort of depicts it as like deep sea diving: extremes or combinations of depth/pressure and time spent is what can kill you.

This brings up questions: is projecting yourself to another planet in the same system for an hour less dangerous than projecting yourself across the galaxy to Crait for five minutes? Are there parameters for what's "too far" (deep sea divers certainly know what depths and times create danger/bends/blackout)? Did Luke know these - and if so, how? How could he know if that danger existed if he invented the idea of FP?

It's hard to say how far Crait is from Ah-choo in-movie - I don't recall it being specially called out as a massive distance (which, if you're going to hang your hat on the massive distance being the danger, you'd clearly define after setting up that's the danger.)

The logistics of Force projection (much like the logistics of any Force ability) don't matter to me as much as the fact that Luke Skywalker used it to end up being the absolute epitome of what Yoda had taught him (and us) that a true Jedi should be.

Again, if force projection was used in the way TLJ "force texting" was used, or even OT force texting (between Luke and Vader in ESB and ROTJ, even the brief moment between Luke and Leia) it really wouldn't have been that big of a deal, because it's really just people connecting - but as I've said, they used force projection as Luke Skywalker's final act.

It's a huge deal - not only does it kill him, we are supposed to judge his actions as brave, clever, sacrificial, etc etc. That's where rules and context become CRITICAL - and the fact we are having this conversation (with quite variable rules/theories being discussed) says the movie failed in this regard.

 

[ShadowX81]

That's why I love Luke's dialogue/narration in the TROS trailer, when he says (more or less) "We have taught you all we can; this is your fight now."

That's perfect! It harkens back to Obi-Wan telling him that he can't interfere in Luke's battle with Vader. Some things need to be done by the living. And it also feeds into GL's preference/plan to make the third trilogy more about legacy and generational learning. The masters pass the baton; the students have to do the actual running.

But the bigger question is why? Who cares who this generation belongs to or whatever. If ghosts can strike bad guys with lightning, they can help out in a battle that really needs all the help the rebels can get.

 

[TaliBane]

You keep referring to the "learned skill" as something that Lucas came up with for the PT, and had never been a part of what Force ghosts were in the OT. To me, I think the intent for what started with Obi-Wan in ANH was always meant to be different than what you're suggesting, and that it remained consistent all the way through the PT. It even dates back to before ANH hit theaters.

Below is a pic I took of a page from the Star Wars novelization. It was published in 1976, months before the movie hit theaters. Although George Lucas himself didn't specifically compose it, he's credited as the author because it was all based on his script/screenplay.

You can see that Kenobi makes it clear that death won't happen for him the way it would for Vader, because his *powers* had grown. And after Vader thinks he's killed Obi-Wan, he checks the sliced robe because he senses some kind of trick. Kenobi's vanishing was new and unusual; Vader had presumably killed good and wholesome Jedi before, yet had never witnessed a vanishing of one. Kenobi didn't just "die."


I think that "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" always meant more than you seem to want to believe. What we see Yoda do in TLJ is mild in the context of what Lucas had in mind for Force ghosts, dating back all the way to his first scripts. And Kenobi achieved a spiritual presence that could interact with the living world *only because his Jedi powers had matured/evolved.*

Fans have the luxury of creating their own head canon for what "counts" and what doesn't. The ST filmmakers don't have that luxury; they have to account for six Lucas films and everything that is official canon. Force ghosts as a learned skill is official canon, no matter how you slice it. And I consider it having been intended that way all along (since at least 1976).

But again, what was filmed for the OT is the only "canon" that really matters, because that's the only SW stuff that has deeply resonated culturally. Everything else has been attempts to ride the coattails with none of it achieving even one quarter of the deep cultural engagement and adoration/fascination the OT achieved.

And this is what I mean about this being two different conversations: you're citing sources, I'm trying to think about why this stuff has stayed with us all these years as a way to defining how these things work on us emotionally - and also therefore how that should impact their official definitions.

The "deserved/moral" nature of force ghosts you don't seem all that interested in discussing - you see it simply as another Jedi power to be learned. But as I said, the reason Ben's force ghost resonates us is because it parallels the idea of doing good in life leading to eternal afterlife (just as we would have expected if Vader didn't turn at the end, that he'd just die and be gone,) and the idea of a dead parent as guardian. Seeing it as "students, today we are going to learn about how to live on after death" just feels so random - and what about the idea that if it's a skill, that anyone , evil or otherwise, can learn/do it?

 

[Khev]

Wait what....

Not even The Rise of Skywalker



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It took me a second to realize that you'd tweaked my quote.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Again, if force projection was used in the way TLJ "force texting" was used, or even OT force texting (between Luke and Vader in ESB and ROTJ, even the brief moment between Luke and Leia) it really wouldn't have been that big of a deal, because it's really just people connecting - but as I've said, they used force projection as Luke Skywalker's final act.

It's a huge deal - not only does it kill him, we are supposed to judge his actions as brave, clever, sacrificial, etc etc. That's where rules and context become CRITICAL - and the fact we are having this conversation (with quite variable rules/theories being discussed) says the movie failed in this regard.

But we've also been having a conversation about whether Kenobi actually died/sacrificed himself and "earned" a ghost for good behavior, versus transitioned himself into a "more powerful" form who *can't* really die. But neither one of us would ever suggest that this debate says that the first SW movie failed in regard to establishing clear rules and context. I can see a distinction, but not much of a difference.

But the bigger question is why? Who cares who this generation belongs to or whatever. If ghosts can strike bad guys with lightning, they can help out in a battle that really needs all the help the rebels can get.

We're talking about Jedi here. One of their key precepts is "preserving a balance" in the Force. So, it's not hard for me to believe that Jedi Force ghosts would avoid directly interfering in the terrestrial conflicts of the living. It doesn't matter to me if they *can* call lightning, as long as I believe that these Jedi spirits *would not* use it in a tide-changing way by striking bad guys.

If the Force always seeks a balance, then Jedi ghosts using the Light Side to "strike bad guys" with lightning would probably lead to a balancing in the Force where the Dark Side would gain a similar ability. So these Jedi have to be disciplined. Great power, great responsibility . . . that sort of thing.

If it helps to understand what I mean, then just imagine if traditional ghosts (as we think of them in our reality) could interact with the living. If they just showed up to occasionally offer advice and guidance, that would be innocuous enough. But if they injected themselves into the outcome of our wars, what the hell would be the point of living beings needing to solve our own conflicts and choose our destiny? To me, it would be "cheating," for lack of a better term.

But again, what was filmed for the OT is the only "canon" that really matters, because that's the only SW stuff that has deeply resonated culturally. Everything else has been attempts to ride the coattails with none of it achieving even one quarter of the deep cultural engagement and adoration/fascination the OT achieved.

And this is what I mean about this being two different conversations: you're citing sources, I'm trying to think about why this stuff has stayed with us all these years as a way to defining how these things work on us emotionally - and also therefore how that should impact their official definitions.

The "deserved/moral" nature of force ghosts you don't seem all that interested in discussing - you see it simply as another Jedi power to be learned. But as I said, the reason Ben's force ghost resonates us is because it parallels the idea of doing good in life leading to eternal afterlife (just as we would have expected if Vader didn't turn at the end, that he'd just die and be gone,) and the idea of a dead parent as guardian. Seeing it as "students, today we are going to learn about how to live on after death" just feels so random - and what about the idea that if it's a skill, that anyone , evil or otherwise, can learn/do it?

You summed it up well. I don't focus much on what might resonate more with other people; I'm more concerned with how I perceive the story intent within the narrative. When I feel that the intent is beyond clear, I don't need other subjective interpretations to make sense of anything. When I first heard Ben say his "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" line, I wondered what that meant. Then I saw his body disappear. That was a wow moment; it wasn't a "death" in the strictest sense. As I grew older, and watched the movie again (plus ESB and ROTJ repeatedly too), I understood that his helping to guide Luke's path/destiny as a "ghost" is the payoff for what he was referring to (and doing).

When Obi-Wan showed up on Hoth, I knew he couldn't do that if he was still a mortal man who was confined to his personal space/location. Same goes for when he was keeping tabs on Luke's interactions with Yoda on Dagobah. Kenobi now had more "power" to ensure that Luke became ready and capable to ultimately defeat Vader and the Emperor. None of that resonated more with me because it matched some idea I had of earthly ghosts/spirits.

It seemed obvious to me, all along, that Kenobi and Yoda were more than "typical" ghosts as we perceive the concept in our reality. By the time ROTS came along and added the specific Qui-Gon element to the Force ghost business, my thought was essentially, "okay, that makes enough sense." You and I, we just see GL's intent too differently. But I dig the discussion, and thank you for it.

 

[ShadowX81]

We're talking about Jedi here. One of their key precepts is "preserving a balance" in the Force. So, it's not hard for me to believe that Jedi Force ghosts would avoid directly interfering in the terrestrial conflicts of the living. It doesn't matter to me if they *can* call lightning, as long as I believe that these Jedi spirits *would not* use it in a tide-changing way by striking bad guys.

If the Force always seeks a balance, then Jedi ghosts using the Light Side to "strike bad guys" with lightning would probably lead to a balancing in the Force where the Dark Side would gain a similar ability. So these Jedi have to be disciplined. Great power, great responsibility . . . that sort of thing.

If it helps to understand what I mean, then just imagine if traditional ghosts (as we think of them in our reality) could interact with the living. If they just showed up to occasionally offer advice and guidance, that would be innocuous enough. But if they injected themselves into the outcome of our wars, what the hell would be the point of living beings needing to solve our own conflicts and choose our destiny? To me, it would be "cheating," for lack of a better term.

But where is the line there? Several times in the OT, Obi Wan showed up to offer Luke advice or information that was critical in winning the war. Information that he would have never been able to get on his own. Telling him to go to Degobah to find and be trained by Yoda, giving details of Anakin's transformation into Vader, letting him know that Leia was his sister, ect. Sounds like directly intervening to me.

 

[jye4ever]

I still think a clone from Luke’s hand will be revealed.


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[Wor-Gar]

I still think a clone from Luke’s hand will be revealed.

That hand that's still floating in space...?






I wonder if that hand used the Force to pull itself somewhere?