Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[jye4ever]

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[Khev]

 

[Wor-Gar]

Did Prof Hulk lie though?

 

[jye4ever]

Did Prof Hulk lie though?

Yes....when the battle started.

Wait that’s lay not lie.

What I told you was true, from a certain point of view




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[Wor-Gar]

Prof Hulk is a wimp, but Ben is a liar.

 

[xipotec]

The Jedi kept texts in digital form,

View attachment 463481

Why the **** would they have this garbage laying around,

View attachment 463482


They wouldn't. If the sacred texts are as old as TLJ states, that **** would turn to dust the second anyone touched them. It would make sense for the Jedi to save that **** on a flashdrive in their fancy library somewhere for preservation purposes, not in a ****ing cave.


Stupid movie.

Its obvious. There are books and teaching the Jedi did not want people to learn.....not just Sith teachings, but likely any teachings they deemed a possible threat to their rule.

You think the Jedi counsel wants people to be able to just force project into their nefarious plot meetings?




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[xipotec]

That's just *my* take on it (and I could be very wrong), but yeah, that's what I'm saying. However, most of my view is based on something we've been debating for days now, and disagree on: whether Force ghosts exist as an ability that a Jedi can learn to use. Since you don't regard the Force ghost as a learned skill, you're just going to have to indulge me and my contrary point of view for the rest of this post.

The closest thing I've seen on screen to an intangible Jedi who can still interact with the living world is indeed a Force ghost. Luke would've likely been taught that ability (by Yoda, Kenobi, or Qui-Gon) during his time as a Jedi Master (before he shut himself off from the Force). Luke's Force projection in TLJ could've therefore been a modified version of what he learned during that time. He could've used his knowledge/mastery of the Force to figure out a way to project a more "real" version of what a Force ghost would be (without the blueish glow, semi-transparency, etc.), but in the living world.

This works for me because it would: 1.) answer the question of why no Jedi had used it before, 2.) require lethal consequences (necessitated by having to transfer some sort of "life essence" to generate a quasi-ghost), 3.) not need to be an entirely new Jedi power, and 4.) explain how Kylo was aware of it (by virtue of having been Luke's student and nephew).



If you accept the premise that I just outlined, then Luke would've essentially invented Force projection himself, and he'd be at least somewhat aware of what he'd be capable of in terms of maintaining his projection (duration) and what it would entail (full scope).



Luke was essentially saying goodbye to his sister. He wanted that "real" moment with her. And for the audience, it would provide (hopefully) a powerfully resonant moment.

Why didn't he tell Leia about his plan? Because he was keeping tabs on Rey, and everything depended on Rey and Chewie anyway. Until Rey showed up, where was Leia going to take her crew? Aboard what ship? Even if Leia cleared the rocks, fleeing on foot would've ultimately been futile.

Even if Poe hadn't realized what was happening (culminating his TLJ arc), Rey would still need to come fetch her friends in that cave. And Luke could've kept the projection going long enough to give Rey the time to do it.



Well, that's how I see it. But I'll accept whatever LFL comes up with when they eventually define the particulars of Force projection "officially." I only bothered to come up with my own explanation in the first place because people kept objecting to the Force projection on the basis of this, that, and the other thing. If I could resolve those objections for myself, then I can simply dismiss them entirely going forward. And so I do.

100% agreement.



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[TaliBane]

We're talking about Jedi here. One of their key precepts is "preserving a balance" in the Force. So, it's not hard for me to believe that Jedi Force ghosts would avoid directly interfering in the terrestrial conflicts of the living. It doesn't matter to me if they *can* call lightning, as long as I believe that these Jedi spirits *would not* use it in a tide-changing way by striking bad guys.

If the Force always seeks a balance, then Jedi ghosts using the Light Side to "strike bad guys" with lightning would probably lead to a balancing in the Force where the Dark Side would gain a similar ability. So these Jedi have to be disciplined. Great power, great responsibility . . . that sort of thing.

But under the "force ghost as learned skill" rule, anyone can theoretically become one - even the most vile, evil force user in history. Would they be disciplined and respect the "Great power, great responsibility" thing? This is the wider issue with becoming a force ghost simply by learned skill, not having it in any way "deserved."

In fact if a force ghost can have the powers Yoda did in TLJ, it would be a kind of "ultimate weapon." I mean imagine if Vader didn't turn in ROTJ, was still raving about turning Leia etc but is killed by Luke anyway - but Vader had earlier learned how to become a force ghost. Popping up everywhere he chose, unable to be stopped, using that same lightning to rain down on various rebels etc.

And I heard that a lot in the PT, but what does "bringing balance to the force" actually mean? It sounds so uber PT and Wookiepedia.

And yeah - great conversation. From two of the few people on the planet who have built a 1/6 Ree Yees from the ground up.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Its obvious. There are books and teaching the Jedi did not want people to learn.....not just Sith teachings, but likely any teachings they deemed a possible threat to their rule.

You think the Jedi counsel wants people to be able to just force project into their nefarious plot meetings?




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

The Jedi are the Catholic church

 

[ajp4mgs]

But where is the line there? Several times in the OT, Obi Wan showed up to offer Luke advice or information that was critical in winning the war. Information that he would have never been able to get on his own. Telling him to go to Degobah to find and be trained by Yoda, giving details of Anakin's transformation into Vader, letting him know that Leia was his sister, ect. Sounds like directly intervening to me.

All of your examples have to do with guiding Luke on his personal journey (empowering him in most cases). Luke still had to do the actual work.

Even if you want to argue that Force ghosts in the OT couldn't do things like summon lightning, they could certainly do things like give warnings. When Luke and Vader were having their duel on Bespin, Kenobi ghost could've told Luke where Vader would be at all times, instead of Luke being caught by surprise. Kenobi ghost could've also kept Luke from a near-death experience by warning him about the Wampa, right? So, why didn't he?

If you're going to play the "why didn't he?" game with Yoda summoning lightning, you could just as easily play the "why didn't he?" game with Kenobi giving warnings. Why didn't he? Because there's a line they don't cross. In the Bespin example, Kenobi told Luke up front that he couldn't interfere. Luke had to face challenges, dangers, and battles on his own. Hopefully Rey and the new heroes will have to do the same. No cheating!

But under the "force ghost as learned skill" rule, anyone can theoretically become one - even the most vile, evil force user in history. Would they be disciplined and respect the "Great power, great responsibility" thing? This is the wider issue with becoming a force ghost simply by learned skill, not having it in any way "deserved."

In fact if a force ghost can have the powers Yoda did in TLJ, it would be a kind of "ultimate weapon." I mean imagine if Vader didn't turn in ROTJ, was still raving about turning Leia etc but is killed by Luke anyway - but Vader had earlier learned how to become a force ghost. Popping up everywhere he chose, unable to be stopped, using that same lightning to rain down on various rebels etc.

And I heard that a lot in the PT, but what does "bringing balance to the force" actually mean? It sounds so uber PT and Wookiepedia.

What we've been taught about the Force is that there's a light side and a dark side. A Force user taps into one side or the other; not both at the same time. And each side seemingly has a few specific corresponding powers/abilities. Light side users (like the Jedi) don't appear to shoot lightning from their hands, and dark side users (like the Sith) don't seem to use the Jedi mind trick. I can't imagine a Jedi getting yellow Sith eyes, and I can't imagine a Sith getting a Force ghost.

And that's where we get into the idea of "balance of the Force." It's the balance between light and dark. For example, one of the theories about why the Sith developed the "rule of two" is because balancing the light of the Jedi (who used to always have many members) would mean that the fewer Sith there are, the more powerful their dark powers would be. If we extend that theory, it could be why Luke was so powerful (without much training) in the OT; he was one of the only Jedi left to balance out the Sith (Palps and Vader).

Anyway, I don't think light side users can tap into dark side powers, or vice versa. Once Anakin crossed over to the dark side, for example, he changed (yellow eyes being the visual cue). Maybe he wasn't able to summon light side abilities (like the Jedi mind trick) anymore. So, the hypothetical evil Force ghost wouldn't be able to exist. But that's why one of the Jedi's responsibilities seems to be helping maintain that balance of the Force: to prevent a drastic and dangerous shifting.

Jedi have to be careful not to go too far, because it would lead them to fall to the dark side. If a Jedi were to abuse the power of being a Force ghost, it could presumably open the door for a balancing dark-side power surge. As Luke explained in TLJ: "powerful light, powerful darkness." And as Snoke put it: "darkness rises, and light to meet it." So, the reverse would be true as well.

And yeah - great conversation. From two of the few people on the planet who have built a 1/6 Ree Yees from the ground up.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I do like this balance idea: that if you use "too much" light then you end up creating just as much darkness to meet it. It does inherently make you very cautious in your use of such powers.

Sith don't seem to care much. They just go about their evil business, as if nothing dark they do will create an equal amount of light. Have they not learned?

 

[xipotec]

The Jedi are Catholic church

Yup, the analogy is clearly there.

No personal relationships (priests)

Counsel you must be approved for (bishops and Cardinals)

Years or training and dedication

Must learn from an elder

Its a religion , and I really feel that was what Luke was trying to get at. The Force is a personal thing, thats really needs no training. Or teachers. Becaue the teacher is flawed in itself, and can only corrupt what should be a natural process.

But SW fans really fell in love with the Jedi idea, and refuse to believe anyone can be a force user. We have seen numerous discussions on the abilities Rey has as impossible because she did not submit to Jedi training.

But what we should consider is that the Jedi were farming force users to proliferate their own religion.

Anakin was clearly already using the force while flying pods, and he obviously could read minds (Jedi counsel scene picking out ships and whatnot) what else would he have been able to do on his own had he grown to his teen years.





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[Mad Old Lu]

Even if you want to argue that Force ghosts in the OT couldn't do things like summon lightning, they could certainly do things like give warnings. When Luke and Vader were having their duel on Bespin, Kenobi ghost could've told Luke where Vader would be at all times, instead of Luke being caught by surprise. Kenobi ghost could've also kept Luke from a near-death experience by warning him about the Wampa, right? So, why didn't he?

If you're going to play the "why didn't he?" game with Yoda summoning lightning, you could just as easily play the "why didn't he?" game with Kenobi giving warnings. Why didn't he? Because there's a line they don't cross. In the Bespin example, Kenobi told Luke up front that he couldn't interfere. Luke had to face challenges, dangers, and battles on his own. Hopefully Rey and the new heroes will have to do the same. No cheating!

I actually do remember wondering as a kid why Ben/Yoda couldn't "help" Luke like that!

What we've been taught about the Force is that there's a light side and a dark side. A Force user taps into one side or the other; not both at the same time. And each side seemingly has a few specific corresponding powers/abilities. Light side users (like the Jedi) don't appear to shoot lightning from their hands, and dark side users (like the Sith) don't seem to use the Jedi mind trick. I can't imagine a Jedi getting yellow Sith eyes, and I can't imagine a Sith getting a Force ghost.

Whoa. You just blew my mind. After all these years, I never realized that the Sith never used the mind trick!

Great conversation going. ajp, you are a true master. And great points, xipotec!

I'll just briefly chime in and say that, as an old fan (since '77!), I'm still enjoying the hell out of my repeated viewings of TFA, TLJ and Solo, and am really looking forward to TROS.

 

[jye4ever]

At first in the trailer I thought Snoke was saying “Darkness rises, I’d like to meet it” lol

It wasn’t until much later that I figured out what he was really saying.


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[ajp4mgs]

I do like this balance idea: that if you use "too much" light then you end up creating just as much darkness to meet it. It does inherently make you very cautious in your use of such powers.

Sith don't seem to care much. They just go about their evil business, as if nothing dark they do will create an equal amount of light. Have they not learned?

They might've been able to learn from lessons passed down, but they keep killing each other off.

After all these years, I never realized that the Sith never used the mind trick!

Not on screen, at least. They've used "mind probes," but not the actual "mind trick." I've gotta believe that Palps would've been shown employing it left and right. So it makes more sense to me if it's a power made available strictly from the light side of the Force, where those who can call upon it would be the type to not abuse it (like the Force ghost stuff). I hope that's what GL was thinking, anyway.

BTW, your posts in SW threads are way too few and far between; don't be such a stranger.

At first in the trailer I thought Snoke was saying “Darkness rises, I’d like to meet it” lol

It wasn’t until much later that I figured out what he was really saying.

"Hello darkness, my old friend . . ."

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Its a religion , and I really feel that was what Luke was trying to get at. The Force is a personal thing, thats really needs no training. Or teachers. Becaue the teacher is flawed in itself, and can only corrupt what should be a natural process.

Well, yes and no. Maybe to a point a person might unknowingly use the force in small ways, like say a sixth sense or a feeling of déjà vu, but the OT established that guidance by an "elder" was needed, hence Obi and Yoda. Even old Luke in TLJ was getting lessons from Yoda.

But SW fans really fell in love with the Jedi idea, and refuse to believe anyone can be a force user. We have seen numerous discussions on the abilities Rey has as impossible because she did not submit to Jedi training.

I blame the OT and PT. Both used the elder or mentor figure from the hero's journey, so although the idea that the force is magical or simply something everyone can access naturally because it's all around them seems logical, it's 40 years too late to simply ignore the past and have people accept a new belief. In a way, the fictional Jedi religion has become a real religion to fans, and asking fans to turn their backs on 40 years of "teaching" is not going to be well received...*cough* TFA...*cough* TLJ.

But what we should consider is that the Jedi were farming force users to proliferate their own religion.

Oh yeah, they're money hungry pigs. Their temples were huge...who pays for that? Yoda's fancy floating chair thingy....can't be cheap. All those ships and uniforms. They're no better than the Sith. We've only seen the Sith from the Jedi's point of view, so from a certain POV, they're "bad," and they might be, but the Jedi's hands are dirty too. No organization is that large and has that many people without some corruption. They make decisions and operate in secrecy, so that's a major red flag.

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

It's refreshing to read this thread for a change.

 

[jye4ever]

I hope yoda didn’t leave those younglings unattended with those Jedi clergy and Jedi scout masters.

Leave them with Anakin they will be safer.


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[xipotec]

Well, yes and no. Maybe to a point a person might unknowingly use the force in small ways, like say a sixth sense or a feeling of déjà vu, but the OT established that guidance by an "elder" was needed, hence Obi and Yoda. Even old Luke in TLJ was getting lessons from Yoda.

Ah did it thou? Its established that the JEDI feel a mentor is needed, everything we think we know about force users comes from the Jedi religion and point of view. I had wondered years after seeing ESB what a wild type force user would be like. Then we got the Dark Forces game and it was sort of answered.

I blame the OT and PT. Both used the elder or mentor figure from the hero's journey, so although the idea that the force is magical or simply something everyone can access naturally because it's all around them seems logical, it's 40 years too late to simply ignore the past and have people accept a new belief. In a way, the fictional Jedi religion has become a real religion to fans, and asking fans to turn their backs on 40 years of "teaching" is not going to be well received...*cough*.

This unfortunately is very true. Like most religions (and SW in many ways has become one) the previous dogma cannot be questioned. Most SW fans base their beliefs on what the force user can do and how they do it on very few lines and years of repeating of those few lines. The reality is, in a galaxy wide lore, this would be a narrow one sided view at best.

Its actually been a welcoming change for me to see the Jedi are unneeded for people to become force users.
Perhaps , like many natural born talents , a mentor (Sith , Jedi or Other) would speed up the process, make it easier, quicker, but that also comes with a price of being indoctrinated. I think that story is worth telling. I believe RJ was attempting to tell this tale, and as you said, fans were not having it. Because it questions their strongly held beliefs based on very little actually evidence from a single source.

I hope yoda didn’t leave those younglings unattended with those Jedi clergy and Jedi scout masters.

Leave them with Anakin they will be safer.

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LOL. Corruption of the mind usually includes corruption of the body.



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[ajp4mgs]

Its actually been a welcoming change for me to see the Jedi are unneeded for people to become force users.
Perhaps , like many natural born talents , a mentor (Sith , Jedi or Other) would speed up the process, make it easier, quicker, but that also comes with a price of being indoctrinated. I think that story is worth telling. I believe RJ was attempting to tell this tale, and as you said, fans were not having it. Because it questions their strongly held beliefs based on very little actually evidence from a single source.

I don't think RJ was trying to tell a tale that had anything to do with mentors not being needed. In fact, if anything, he was saying the opposite. When Rey and Luke were in the tree library, Luke told her that she needed a teacher. He pointed that out to her even as he was in the middle of trying to end the Jedi "religion." The teacher/student dynamic was obviously not one of the flawed Jedi ideas.

The need for mentorship was then reinforced when Yoda had to show up to remind Luke of earlier lessons that he wasn't heeding. Luke still needed his mentor, even though he himself was a Master. Without Yoda, Luke wouldn't have finished his turnaround. That was supposed to be a significant takeaway from what RJ's story was all about.

Yoda was encouraging Luke not to let his perceived failure keep him from being what Rey needed: a teacher. Guide her from what you know, and let her learn from our failures so that she can be even better. "We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

So, instead of focusing strictly on the analogy to religion, think about an analogy to martial arts. How would martial arts be mastered by someone without the benefit of some form of passed-down knowledge? Like using the Force, you can have raw skill and desire, but you need guidance in order to master the art form. Books can teach you, but learning under the tutelage of a master is the time-honored method that works best. So too with the Force. RJ wasn't trying to change that aspect.