Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[jye4ever]

I'm only going to antagonize you with this post because you took another cheap shot at Joker.

But why would Leia choose to wait until so much harm had been done before reaching out to her son? Her husband had to die. Her brother had to die. Billions of people had to die.

If reaching out and connecting with Ben's mind is something that Leia was capable of, why did she let him descend so far down into the dark side that he had to commit atrocities just to resist the pull to the light? Wouldn't it have been easier (and better) before all that?

And why does reaching out to her son via the Force end up killing her? Luke reached out to Leia in ESB without any consequences. Vader reached out to Luke, and even had sort of a conversation with him. But now reaching out to a family member through the Force to say his name has lethal consequences?

But enough of that. I want to wish you a Merry Christmas, jye (or a happy holiday if you don't celebrate Christmas). And Merry Christmas (or happy holiday) to all the Freaks!

No, no different. Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.

sigh...

Impossible to see the ajp is.


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[TaliBane]

Yep I'm totally fine with that now considering Palpatine's involvement and Ben's ultimate arc.

I'm cool with Luke's exile now too considering it was turned into Rey's final teaching moment from a teacher who knew exactly how she felt. We now officially have his missing "third lesson."

Now TLJ's only issue is why he didn't show up in person on Crait and I would lean toward he either really did think that Ben Solo was redeemable and didn't want it to be a physical fight where either he or Ben could die in combat or that it would have taken several hours to arrive by X-Wing and at that point there just wasn't time so projection was the way to go.

Hmm... this gets complicated. You're saying he commits suicide by strategic choice (depending on what your view is re: what actually killed Luke) instead of arriving to think on his feet.

Some of this requires so much thought and recontextualizing it makes your brain hurt. That Hollywood Reporter article points up some of the maddening logic stuff you have to get your head around with Exogol/Palps.

ROTJ seemed fairly undertstandable and clean re: Luke/Palps/Vader and "plans." TROS seems so incredibly, almost laughably in multiple ways, convoluted and contradictory - very messy in terms of "plans." After reading that Hollywood Reporter article, likely impossible to make sense of.

You know a lot of us love it but you're definitely not alone with your criticisms. For all I know fans are just as split on TROS as they were on TLJ but I think a definite difference this time around is that those who don't like it mostly have issues with the structure or execution of the film itself rather than being outraged at the disrespectful choices of an openly divisive and antagonistic director.

I suspect that many who don't like it now might one day warm to it and see it as more of a lovable mixed bag not too unlike ROTJ. But the "stain" of TLJ and public lashing out at fans by RJ and others at LFL might just be too great for many to forget right now. We'll see in time if my guess is correct of course.

Interesting.

For me, ROTJ is around 2/3s fun-cool and 1/3 junk (well, maybe it's more 60/40, possibly even 50/50) - currently TROS is the reverse (well, maybe 30/70.) I'm interested to see how that changes with another viewing.

I have to say I had some fun with parts of this movie, so that's a starting point. And even though the details are kinda funny/silly (I still don't understand why he was a Sith-y robe on a coat hanger with only a head and arms - and why he needed Rey/Kylo to make his fingers grow when his lab guys are growing fingers/bodies just around the corner) I did like seeing OT-ish Palps back on the big screen and in an environment that evoked the ROTJ art of lava grottos and Coruscant temples.

Space battle was a massive fail!


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Was it a "space" battle? I really couldn't tell if it was space, that "semi-space" we saw in Solo, or just a planetary atmosphere at sunset. I guess the horses were probably the indication it was the latter.

But yeah - the space battle was confusing and dull mostly because it was so unclear what was happening exactly. I didn't even understand whether we were talking a hundred SDs or tens of thousands (it's supposedly the latter?) and what exogol even was - a regular planetor a kind of "hell" realm that you had to pass through a sort of supernatural gate to enter (what was all that red stuff)?

One of the plot logic problems in ESB would only exist for me if it had to exist in the context of TROS. Why didn't Vader use the Force to pull the Falcon down as it was leaving Hoth? That wasn't a problem before because we reasonably presumed that stopping an accelerating starship with the Force would be absurd. Not anymore; Rey and Kylo can *both* do it.

I suppose that a movie can still be enjoyed if you have to turn off your brain to do so. But it goes too far if someone has to completely unplug the brain for fear that even in "standby mode" it would start sounding alarm bells at every turn. I don't know how any movie can be enjoyable at that point.

Did you do a fuller review of TROS? I really wish there was a "review" thread here for each movie so you could scroll through reviews long and short to see what everyone thought.

I find it fascinating that the two people on here with the most encyclopedic knowledge of SW - you and Khev - whose views I always love to read (and argue with) are diametrically opposed on this movie.

Merry seXmas to all.... and to all a good night!

I fell asleep myself.

Hahahohoho - I did just get a Xmas wish amidst all the elf duties.

Merry Christmas tough guy noob!

His puppy died. Cut him some slack.

 

[The Buffinator]

Well, several of my SW buddies didn't like the movie because there's this sense that what happened in TROS - where Palps needs a body (Rey) to possess - also happened in the throne room in ROTJ. But they were saying - and I agreed (I have to re-watch ROTJ) - that wasn't what was happening between Palps and Luke in those scenes. That nothing about what Palps says or does there (such as mocking-laughing as Vader blocks Luke's first saber blow at Palps) indicates Palps was literally trying to make Luke kill him to then take over his body.

I agree with you & your friends. In ROTJ, Palpatine wasn't in the market for a new body, he was looking for a new apprentice/2nd in command. Darth was "more machine than man" at that point, so to Palps it was like shopping for the latest & greatest laptop. It wasn't until after he'd barely survived Darth's shaft toss that he required a new vessel for his spirit/consciousness to possess.

 

[The Buffinator]

BTW, I noticed during my second viewing that Jodie Comer (Best Actress Emmy winner for Killing Eve) played Rey's mother. I didn't catch that the first time around.

 

[dan350zr]

You know what gets me is The Emperor has all the resources to build all those ships but he only has enough money to put a navigation system on one of them...

I still don't get the whole thing that Rey and Kylo can lightsaber each other in two completely different places, or even take items from each other even though they are on two different planets... And how the F*@# did Kylo always show up right after Rey gets there, does he have like a wormhole generator that will take him instantly to where Rey is?

And if Jedi Force Ghosts can interact in the real world how come they just don't take out Palpatine?

How does one have enough power to use force lighting on 100's of ships but can't use that same power to take out one person with a lightsaber?

And what's with lightspeed skipping? I get maybe shutting it on and off while in space but every time the stopped it Poe would be flying across a planet surface, sure it makes for good cinema photography but makes zero sense...

The movie was WAY too long... they could have easily cut 30-45 mins of scenes that had no impact on the story, what little story there was, and the story they did have look like they stole a lot of dialogue directly from Empire Strkes Back and Return of the Jedi...

 

[Khev]

Some of this requires so much thought and recontextualizing it makes your brain hurt. That Hollywood Reporter article points up some of the maddening logic stuff you have to get your head around with Exogol/Palps.

I guess one person's fun theorizing is another's hurt brain.

To me the whole trilogy really does work out now.

1. Rey is a Palpatine unceremoniously disposed on Jakku by her parents to get her as far off the Emperor's radar as possible. Circumstances were so dire that they could guarantee very little of her safety beyond simply hiding her away.

2. Palps wanted a new Force sensitive body where he could transfer his consciousness and power of all the Sith but he couldn't find Rey so used a created proxy (Snoke) as a placeholder figure head of his new Empire with Ben Solo serving double duty as his main henchman and also sweet revenge by corrupting the family of his hated enemies. Since Snoke was just a puppet the "only two" rule of murdering your master and then being possessed by their spirit didn't apply.

3. Palps possibly created Starkiller Base as a red herring to divert all Republic/Resistance/Jedi attention to a single place far from his new super fleet and body. He may have even anticipated it being destroyed just so that he could laugh when he then obliterates hundreds of Star Systems at once while the Rebels are celebrating.

4. Once Palps (as Snoke) learned of Rey he fell into his usual routine of playing both sides against each other and instructing one side (Kylo) to kill the other (Rey.) This was for his own amusement but also as a test to see who would win or whether they'd join together. If they join then he can suck their power and essentially restore his own body (which obviously ended up happening) and if one kills the other then he just takes the body of the winner.

5. His downfall of course is that once he was fully restored it then became a straight power vs. power fight of all the Jedi vs. all the Sith that ended in a stalemate with both Palps and Rey killing each other.

6. Both dead, Palps is gone for good while Rey gets restored by Ben who transfers his life and takes her place in death.

The specifics of Palpatine's Sith magic that allowed him to live on and return are of course not fully spelled out (other than it being an "unnatural" process) but I'm okay with it. I guess I like the double layer approach where on the surface it's just a straight story about a small group of good guys who must overcome the manipulative sorcerer overlord (which I know general audiences are fine with and couldn't care less about any specifics beyond that) while us old school crazies can speculate and connect dots as to what was "really" going on with a couple of those key scenarios. That's all part of the fun for me (in case you hadn't noticed, lol) and I really do think that they did an admirable job of providing a strong enough through line that does seem to be for the most part logical and internally consistent.

Everyone's mileage will vary on that of course.

 

[spindrift]

SW ST haters are not going to give TROS a chance. It is packed with a lot to wrap up the whole thing. Feels like another film is missing but that is the cards JJ was given. He did a fine job and really hit some good emotional moments which was a big plus.

 

[Prime Clone]

For me, ROTJ is around 2/3s fun-cool and 1/3 junk (well, maybe it's more 60/40, possibly even 50/50) - currently TROS is the reverse (well, maybe 30/70.) I'm interested to see how that changes with another viewing.

I could forgive all the plot conveniences and contrivances and leaps of logic if... Rey wasn't a Palpatine. That's the dealbreaker for me.

This was supposed to be the Skywalker Saga but it's Palpatine's bloodline that survives. Even when Ben is redeemed all the Jedi are rooting for Rey.

 

[Khev]

I could forgive all the plot conveniences and contrivances and leaps of logic if... Rey wasn't a Palpatine. That's the dealbreaker for me.

This was supposed to be the Skywalker Saga but it's Palpatine's bloodline that survives. Even when Ben is redeemed all the Jedi are rooting for Rey.

They were probably "oh good the last two Palpatines will kill themselves wait what are you doing Ben," lol.

 

[Prime Clone]

 

[SilverStar17]

They were probably "oh good the last two Palpatines will kill themselves wait what are you doing Ben," lol.

Rey dies.

*Jedi voices speaking to Ben*

“Ben, just go home like your father told you.”

 

[SvenDokki]

Abrams knew, string together 2 1/2 hour vague action packed movie trailer with a few details that might or might not be true.

Fans are so invested we collectively make up a detailed plot ourselves trying to make sense of it.

Disney uses the information and ret cons the best plot.

Fans don?t realize they?ve been used.

After years later of ret con TV shows books and movies making sense of the senseless, fans congratulate Disney on a job well done!

 

[Khev]

You know I wouldn't be surprised if Abrams stole the Rey Palpatine idea from that one YouTuber but hell if I care since at all worked out sweet in the end, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

I guess one person's fun theorizing is another's hurt brain.

To me the whole trilogy really does work out now.

1. Rey is a Palpatine unceremoniously disposed on Jakku by her parents to get her as far off the Emperor's radar as possible. Circumstances were so dire that they could guarantee very little of her safety beyond simply hiding her away.

2. Palps wanted a new Force sensitive body where he could transfer his consciousness and power of all the Sith but he couldn't find Rey so used a created proxy (Snoke) as a placeholder figure head of his new Empire with Ben Solo serving double duty as his main henchman and also sweet revenge by corrupting the family of his hated enemies. Since Snoke was just a puppet the "only two" rule of murdering your master and then being possessed by their spirit didn't apply.

3. Palps possibly created Starkiller Base as a red herring to divert all Republic/Resistance/Jedi attention to a single place far from his new super fleet and body. He may have even anticipated it being destroyed just so that he could laugh when he then obliterates hundreds of Star Systems at once while the Rebels are celebrating.

4. Once Palps (as Snoke) learned of Rey he fell into his usual routine of playing both sides against each other and instructing one side (Kylo) to kill the other (Rey.) This was for his own amusement but also as a test to see who would win or whether they'd join together. If they join then he can suck their power and essentially restore his own body (which obviously ended up happening) and if one kills the other then he just takes the body of the winner.

5. His downfall of course is that once he was fully restored it then became a straight power vs. power fight of all the Jedi vs. all the Sith that ended in a stalemate with both Palps and Rey killing each other.

6. Both dead, Palps is gone for good while Rey gets restored by Ben who transfers his life and takes her place in death.

The specifics of Palpatine's Sith magic that allowed him to live on and return are of course not fully spelled out (other than it being an "unnatural" process) but I'm okay with it. I guess I like the double layer approach where on the surface it's just a straight story about a small group of good guys who must overcome the manipulative sorcerer overlord (which I know general audiences are fine with and couldn't care less about any specifics beyond that) while us old school crazies can speculate and connect dots as to what was "really" going on with a couple of those key scenarios. That's all part of the fun for me (in case you hadn't noticed, lol) and I really do think that they did an admirable job of providing a strong enough through line that does seem to be for the most part logical and internally consistent.

Everyone's mileage will vary on that of course.

Can you imagine if Disney in their new mindset of bringing back the fanbase post RJ decides to include those deleted 13-18 minutes of completed Palpatine backstory and flashbacks into a TROS special edition bluray.

Supposedly it included scenes of a sith resurrection ceremony possibly cut with young Palpatine origins and Darth Plagues death and pulling strings with Snoke.

They were probably "oh good the last two Palpatines will kill themselves wait what are you doing Ben," lol.

We love Rey she is sooo awesome and a great leade........wait what who is she.

Arrrrrgggg!




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[SvenDokki]

You know I wouldn't be surprised if Abrams stole the Rey Palpatine idea from that one YouTuber but hell if I care since at all worked out sweet in the end, lol.

Yes the ret conning has already begun.

 

[Khev]

Can you imagine if Disney in their new mindset of bringing back the fanbase post RJ decides to include those deleted 13-18 minutes of completed Palpatine backstory and flashbacks into a TROS special edition bluray.

Supposedly it included scenes of a sith resurrection ceremony possibly cut with young Palpatine origins and Darth Plagues death and pulling strings with Snoke.

That'd be freaking awesome.

Man I can't wait to hear George weigh in on this one. Can you imagine how pissed he must be if they discarded his ideas a second time, lol.

"Oh after we ignored your Microbiotic Trilogy you thought you were gonna see The Son of Mortis on the big screen? Psyche! We're ending another trilogy with a space battle outside Palpatine's throne room, muahaha!"

George:

We love Rey she is sooo awesome and a great leade........wait what who is she.

Arrrrrgggg!

 

[TaliBane]

I guess one person's fun theorizing is another's hurt brain.

To me the whole trilogy really does work out now.

1. Rey is a Palpatine unceremoniously disposed on Jakku by her parents to get her as far off the Emperor's radar as possible. Circumstances were so dire that they could guarantee very little of her safety beyond simply hiding her away.

2. Palps wanted a new Force sensitive body where he could transfer his consciousness and power of all the Sith but he couldn't find Rey so used a created proxy (Snoke) as a placeholder figure head of his new Empire with Ben Solo serving double duty as his main henchman and also sweet revenge by corrupting the family of his hated enemies. Since Snoke was just a puppet the "only two" rule of murdering your master and then being possessed by their spirit didn't apply.

3. Palps possibly created Starkiller Base as a red herring to divert all Republic/Resistance/Jedi attention to a single place far from his new super fleet and body. He may have even anticipated it being destroyed just so that he could laugh when he then obliterates hundreds of Star Systems at once while the Rebels are celebrating.

4. Once Palps (as Snoke) learned of Rey he fell into his usual routine of playing both sides against each other and instructing one side (Kylo) to kill the other (Rey.) This was for his own amusement but also as a test to see who would win or whether they'd join together. If they join then he can suck their power and essentially restore his own body (which obviously ended up happening) and if one kills the other then he just takes the body of the winner.

5. His downfall of course is that once he was fully restored it then became a straight power vs. power fight of all the Jedi vs. all the Sith that ended in a stalemate with both Palps and Rey killing each other.

6. Both dead, Palps is gone for good while Rey gets restored by Ben who transfers his life and takes her place in death.

The specifics of Palpatine's Sith magic that allowed him to live on and return are of course not fully spelled out (other than it being an "unnatural" process) but I'm okay with it. I guess I like the double layer approach where on the surface it's just a straight story about a small group of good guys who must overcome the manipulative sorcerer overlord (which I know general audiences are fine with and couldn't care less about any specifics beyond that) while us old school crazies can speculate and connect dots as to what was "really" going on with a couple of those key scenarios. That's all part of the fun for me (in case you hadn't noticed, lol) and I really do think that they did an admirable job of providing a strong enough through line that does seem to be for the most part logical and internally consistent.

Everyone's mileage will vary on that of course.

This is what Khev's brain is for.

I'm going to digest all this with the rest of the too-rich Christmas food. To separate what's actually onscreen somewhere, what can clearly (and legitimately/logically) be deduced from what's onscreen, and.... what's fan-fiction and theories masquerading as cobbled factoids. Because seriously - I'm interested that you've sparked to this so completely - sometimes it takes a while to catch up to Khev.

I do think I will be getting a 1/6 HT TROS Palps though (NEVER thought I would say that) - will be an interesting thing because it will possibly reveal more about what he is exactly, which was super confusing to me (barely alive, more aged remnant of surviving ROTJ Palps, a cloned meat puppet of ROTJ Palps, a spectral entity that appears physical but isn't, etc.) Like what will the fig's body look like? A head and upper chest with arms or complete torso and half leg stumps that just weren't visible? Will it be semi-translucent? Also interesting to see what the character looks like in full lighting without the strobe.

And finally... get your *ss on youtube! make some videos. Don't give it away here.

 

[ZE_501]

[...]
Fans are so invested we collectively make up a detailed plot ourselves trying to make sense of it.

[...]

Took a breather from this thread and won't be writing anymore ST screeds, but I couldn't help but take a peek today.

This comment rings deeply true.

Sometimes being a Star Wars fan is like being in an abusive relationship. The object of your misplaced affection gaslights you and insults you daily, but you jump through ever more convoluted hoops to justify your own presence and those fleeting hits of dopamine.

...

...

...

Okay that was dark.

 

[Khev]

This is what Khev's brain is for.

I'm going to digest all this with the rest of the too-rich Christmas food. To separate what's actually onscreen somewhere, what can clearly (and legitimately/logically) be deduced from what's onscreen, and.... what's fan-fiction and theories masquerading as cobbled factoids. Because seriously - I'm interested that you've sparked to this so completely - sometimes it takes a while to catch up to Khev.

You may live to regret it when you do, lol. I'm probably just a Light Side version of SNIKT (if that) with interpretations and theories just as discardible as his. I only post this stuff because I enjoy it and I know a few of you will listen.

I do think I will be getting a 1/6 HT TROS Palps though (NEVER thought I would say that) - will be an interesting thing because it will possibly reveal more about what he is exactly, which was super confusing to me (barely alive, more aged remnant of surviving ROTJ Palps, a cloned meat puppet of ROTJ Palps, a spectral entity that appears physical but isn't, etc.) Like what will the fig's body look like? A head and upper chest with arms or complete torso and half leg stumps that just weren't visible? Will it be semi-translucent? Also interesting to see what the character looks like in full lighting without the strobe.

I know right, what the hell *is* he hiding under that skirt, lol.

And finally... get your *ss on youtube! make some videos. Don't give it away here.

You know I was gonna download some screen capturing software so I could do a video a little more polished than me pointing my phone at the screen. I don't know though, like many I'm still digesting my first viewing of TROS and trying to sort out my thoughts into a coherent take. Maybe I'll record something (if there's anything left to share) after my second viewing.

 

[SvenDokki]

How do you know Palpatine in 1-6 isn’t the clone, we don’t meet the real one until 9, like guy in YouTube video suggested?

The real one hidden away 1000s of years. Send clones of himself out. Control remotely with the force. Death star blows up, clone emperor dies. Clones die but real one lives on.

And that how he knew to send Tyrannus to cloners to make a clone army, and also make a clone snokes. Repeat customer.

Maybe that why he doesn’t want Luke to kill him in 6, it’s just a clone and sith transfer would be wasted. He knows Vader will try to save his son, and will stop Luke from trying to kill Clone. But later it’s the real one when Rey confront him.

Also Vader can’t stop ships as easy for the same reason he can’t shoot force lightning. Robot arms.