Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[ajp4mgs]

Well, at least we now know that in TLJ Luke has the option of flying his x-wing to Crait instead of going with his holo-projector "humiliate Kylo virtually while committing suicide" plan.

Even if he did fly there, would it have been a fitting end to Luke's journey for him to have to kill his nephew? Would Luke have taken on all those AT-AT's for real, and brushed off that assault the same way?

 

[YoNoSe]

Anything would have been better than Luke dying from that one new Force power that’s fatal but only to him.

 

[SvenDokki]

Luke went the same way Obi-Wan did. Vader did not kill Obi-Wan. Kylo and the Force power did not kill Luke. That?s how I took it anyway. They both made the choices that helped redeem the ones who were trying to fight them. The laying down of arms and refusing to fight is how they both won redemption for those they cared about. They never surrendered, they did not commit suicide. They made choices to save loved ones.

And I agree with that article, I never took Abrams? choices as giving Johnson the finger.

 

[YoNoSe]

Neither Kenobi or Luke are looking to redeem their opponents and they both explicitly say so.

 

[jye4ever]

Wouldn't those texts have been the foundation for the lessons taught by the Jedi Order from that point forward? How was the lesson on "Force healing" or "Force resurrection" not something that was passed down as the Order evolved? By the time of the PT, Anakin (and all eventual Jedi) would've been taught Jedi lessons that evolved from those early origins. Or, did he just fall asleep in class that day? Stupid Anakin.

Well at least you are no longer complaining about Anakins legacy being tarnished by Reys arc.

Baby steps ajp baby steps lol

Anything would have been better than Luke dying from that one new Force power that?s fatal but only to him.

As soon as I read your post I thought of:

ANH ObiWan dying using a new force power to give more time to help Luke escape.

TFA Luke dying using a new force power to give more time to help the resistance escape.

ROTS Anakin dying chasing after a new force power.

Kylo dying using a new force power that Vader was desperately trying to use.

Umm holy crap!




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[TaliBane]

Even if he did fly there, would it have been a fitting end to Luke's journey for him to have to kill his nephew? Would Luke have taken on all those AT-AT's for real, and brushed off that assault the same way?

Well, not to open that can of worms (it ends up in the same "you wanted Luke to lift a finger and destroy all the ATATs while levitating and simultaneously twirling two lightsabers with his mind" territory) I'll just say that I would trust Luke to come up with something better than suicide, whether virtually triggered or physically present.

All I was saying is that many used the "Luke couldn't get to Crait because Rey had left and the x-wing was obviously a wreck - duh, it's underwater" excuse for Luke's decision to commit suicide via holo-projection - like he had no choice - but TROS changed all that.

It's also funny that many mocked the idea of Luke raising it ala Yoda in TLJ as oh-so obvious and hackneyed - yet that's exactly what we got in TROS.

I guess Luke didn't have room to park his fighter on land (he wasn't aware of the huge landing pad the Falcon lands on) so decided to put it in the ol' davy jones' locker storage unit option, knowing its systems would be 100% preserved. Makes no sense however you look at it.

 

[JAWS]

The ST will be forgiven for all this and more. But a little shoddy directing and dialog in the PT? Insta-fail.

A Little ???

I am not a PT hater.. There are parts I like.. But man the script, acting and lets face it all the awful green screen in most of the films hurt those films..

I would say the fact that the ST had better acting and better directing makes it that much easier to accept plot holes..

Bad acting and dialogue.. Well nothing takes me out of a movie faster.. Might as well be watching Manos: Hands of Fate.


Having said this.. I still think the PT has more imagination overall and some better / more memorable action... It also has some much worse and cartoony action..

But so much of the acting and goofy script is hard to get by. I put in AOTC the other night just out of curiosity and man... That is just some bad filmmaking

 

[YoNoSe]

Well at least you are no longer complaining about Anakins legacy being tarnished by Reys arc.

Baby steps ajp baby steps lol



As soon as I read your post I thought of:

ANH ObiWan dying using a new force power to give more time to help Luke escape.

TFA Luke dying using a new force power to give more time to help the resistance escape.

ROTS Anakin dying chasing after a new force power.

Kylo dying using a new force power that Vader was desperately trying to use.

Umm holy crap!




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At least Kylo’s has resonance.

Kenobi got chopped btw.

Anakin got chopped & lavad btw.

Luke didn’t help. They stood there and watched him. Then they incorrectly deduced that he came in somehow (iirc) because he didn’t tell them anything. Regardless, Rey was opening the back door while Luke continued to f up Kylo’s head.

 

[YoNoSe]

I think I like Rose better than Luke in TLJ. TLJ Luke probably would have milked the slave horses and told the children to go away. At least Rose gave them jewelry.

 

[JAWS]

At least Kylo’s has resonance.

Kenobi got chopped btw.

Anakin got chopped & lavad btw.

Luke didn’t help. They stood there and watched him. Then they incorrectly deduced that he came in somehow (iirc) because he didn’t tell them anything. Regardless, Rey was opening the back door while Luke continued to f up Kylo’s head.

hmmmm I don't think of it as Obi wan getting chopped. I always looked at it as he willed himself to die. That he died before Vader connected.

Granted I don't think that was the original intention... maybe it was, Vader seemed confused, even had to step on the robe to make sure ben didn't just melt

 

[YoNoSe]

I mean he says “if you strike me down” and then he strikes him down.

I don’t think I know how to Star Wars anymore.

 

[Vortex]

 

[ajp4mgs]

Anything would have been better than Luke dying from that one new Force power that?s fatal but only to him.

I can understand your disappointment with it. But the projection was a more elaborate power than what we'd seen in prior films, so attaching a lethal consequence to it seems appropriate to me. Otherwise it becomes an easy "cheat" out of certain situations.

Plus, the movie that invented it got to define the rules. Contrast that with how Leia died. She used the exact same power that Luke had used in the prior movie. When he reconnected with the Force in TLJ, Luke reached out to Leia from across the galaxy, connected with her, and she acknowledged it by saying his name (might've even gotten her out of her coma). Luke was fine after that (as he had been in ESB). But Leia knew it would kill her to do it in TROS. That's inconsistent; the lethality of Luke's Force projection wasn't.

Well at least you are no longer complaining about Anakins legacy being tarnished by Reys arc.

Baby steps ajp baby steps lol

I'm secretely hoping that you and Khev will turn me into a TROS fan.

Well, not to open that can of worms (it ends up in the same "you wanted Luke to lift a finger and destroy all the ATATs while levitating and simultaneously twirling two lightsabers with his mind" territory) I'll just say that I would trust Luke to come up with something better than suicide, whether virtually triggered or physically present.

That's very fair. Understood.

All I was saying is that many used the "Luke couldn't get to Crait because Rey had left and the x-wing was obviously a wreck - duh, it's underwater" excuse for Luke's decision to commit suicide via holo-projection - like he had no choice - but TROS changed all that.

It's also funny that many mocked the idea of Luke raising it ala Yoda in TLJ as oh-so obvious and hackneyed - yet that's exactly what we got in TROS.

Yes, TROS did indeed change the whole context. I know that all too well. [sigh]

I guess Luke didn't have room to park his fighter on land (he wasn't aware of the huge landing pad the Falcon lands on) so decided to put it in the ol' davy jones' locker storage unit option, knowing its systems would be 100% preserved. Makes no sense however you look at it.

As the published material that LFL put out prior to TROS had indicated, Luke buried the X-Wing in the water because he had no intention of leaving Ahch-To. It wasn't just the visual dictionary pointing to Luke's hut door being from his x-wing; there was actual exposition in novels about a purposeful water submersion for the sake of finality.

But, if I pointed out all of the ways that TROS de-canonizes novels and comics that came out in the last 4 years, it'd probably be longer than my list from yesterday.

 

[jye4ever]

A Little ???

I am not a PT hater.. There are parts I like.. But man the script, acting and lets face it all the awful green screen in most of the films hurt those films..

I would say the fact that the ST had better acting and better directing makes it that much easier to accept plot holes..

Bad acting and dialogue.. Well nothing takes me out of a movie faster.. Might as well be watching Manos: Hands of Fate.


Having said this.. I still think the PT has more imagination overall and some better / more memorable action... It also has some much worse and cartoony action..

But so much of the acting and goofy script is hard to get by. I put in AOTC the other night just out of curiosity and man... That is just some bad filmmaking

Man even order 66 with its amazing vocal chorus has that one really crappy death lol

Look I have always agreed with you that the PT had a better imaginative world driving it but holy crap the execution of it just destroys the flow.

And just like the ST suffered from some poor structural core decisions so did the PT by starting with young Anakin which it never recovered from.

I had the same reaction to Prime A Little comment lol

Manos lol





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[Khev]

Wouldn't those texts have been the foundation for the lessons taught by the Jedi Order from that point forward? How was the lesson on "Force healing" or "Force resurrection" not something that was passed down as the Order evolved? By the time of the PT, Anakin (and all eventual Jedi) would've been taught Jedi lessons that evolved from those early origins. Or, did he just fall asleep in class that day? Stupid Anakin.

Come on ajp, you're better than that. "Stupid Anakin" also lived his entire adult life as a Jedi but then was utterly confused when Obi-Wan's body disappeared. We've known that the teachings of the Jedi were incomplete and that new abilities were being discovered/developed going all the way back to 1977.

But now you'll accept Luke learning "Force Projection" from newly resurfaced ancient texts but Rey is forbidden to make discoveries of her own from those same texts? Master ajp you disappoint me...

All I was saying is that many used the "Luke couldn't get to Crait because Rey had left and the x-wing was obviously a wreck - duh, it's underwater" excuse

He didn't need a broken X-Wing as a valid excuse but showing it to be broken would have been one of the easiest ways to quickly convey that he *did* have an excuse. The other option is just to assume that Ach-To was hours away from Crait via lightspeed travel and he needed to get there in seconds. Issue resolved even with a perfectly functional X-Wing.

Anything would have been better than Luke dying from that one new Force power that?s fatal but only to him.

I just hand wave his death by assuming that the length of time he projected over so far a distance was what did it.

 

[Khev]

Man even order 66 with its amazing vocal chorus has that one really crappy death lol

I still remember Toyfare Magazine ripping apart how easily the Jedi were killed during Order 66. In their version they had Aayla Secura checking her mailbox and then clones driving up and shooting her from the car windows and then for Ki Adi Mundi one Clone got on his hands and knees behind Mundi while another Clone pushed him causing to fall over and instantly die, lol.

 

[YoNoSe]

I can understand your disappointment with it. But the projection was a more elaborate power than what we'd seen in prior films, so attaching a lethal consequence to it seems appropriate to me. Otherwise it becomes an easy "cheat" out of certain situations.

Plus, the movie that invented it got to define the rules. Contrast that with how Leia died. She used the exact same power that Luke had used in the prior movie. When he reconnected with the Force in TLJ, Luke reached out to Leia from across the galaxy, connected with her, and she acknowledged it by saying his name (might've even gotten her out of her coma). Luke was fine after that (as he had been in ESB). But Leia knew it would kill her to do it in TROS. That's inconsistent; the lethality of Luke's Force projection wasn't.

It does not follow the rules it invents.

We are told this power will kill the user from the effort. We initially think Rey or Kylo are doing it, but neither die. We are then told Snoke was doing it x2 but it doesn’t kill him. Then, after Snoke is dead, Rey & Kylo connect again, no one dies.

It is only fatal to Luke.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Come on ajp, you're better than that. "Stupid Anakin" also lived his entire adult life as a Jedi but then was utterly confused when Obi-Wan's body disappeared. We've known that the teachings of the Jedi were incomplete and that new abilities were being discovered/developed going all the way back to 1977.

But now you'll accept Luke learning "Force Projection" from newly resurfaced ancient texts but Rey is forbidden to make discoveries of her own from those same texts? Master ajp you disappoint me...

But, Master Khev, of course Anakin was confused by the disappearing Kenobi; Anakin had no idea that Force ghost abilities were possible. The sacred texts had no such indication, and neither did any of the teachings that Anakin received before becoming Vader.

Of course new abilities were being discovered (like Force ghosts and Luke's Force projection), but you said that Rey would've learned healing from the sacred texts. Those were written generations earlier. If Force healing was new, it wouldn't be in those texts.

 

[Khev]

I never said Force Healing was new.

 

[ajp4mgs]

It does not follow the rules it invents.

We are told this power will kill the user from the effort. We initially think Rey or Kylo are doing it, but neither die. We are then told Snoke was doing it x2 but it doesn’t kill him. Then, after Snoke is dead, Rey & Kylo connect again, no one dies.

It is only fatal to Luke.

Rey and Kylo weren't being projected to be observable by everyone and everything. Their minds were being bridged by way of the Force. Those who weren't Force users couldn't see them in those locations. Luke's projection manifested itself in a way that even C-3PO could see. Plus, the fact that his projection was wearing different clothes is proof that Luke was actively constructing his projected self. Rey and Kylo were appearing in real time however they happened to be dressed (or not ).