Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Khev]

I didn't understand it that way in 1980. I don't remember any talk about another sister out there except as possbily deflection. That's not to say that anyone from Lucasville ever stated then that Leia was his sister because that would have burned the gag, but it seemed to be set up much more cleanly than many other things. Also, my best friend's sister worked at Lucasfilm at the time so I had more information than the general public for three years about what was going on.

Unfortunately trusting anything George has said after the fact coupled with his retconned history makes it impossible to prove one way or the other. I have only my own memory of that time and a great understanding of all things Star wars back then.

Let me guess you also saw that one special screening that showed Hobbie crashing his speeder into Veers' AT-AT through your "Lucasfilm connections."

Lol, I'm totally kidding. Hey I won't tell you what to believe if you've grown up thinking one thing especially if it still makes sense to you looking back. *I* think there's overwhelming evidence that says otherwise but like you said who really knows anything for certain.

BTW, have I mentioned that Disney should do their own version of the SE to make their trilogy more coherent?

 

[Wor-Gar]

there's overwhelming evidence that says otherwise but like you said who really knows anything for certain.

Honestly, please link me to anything overwhelming from that time that backs up that claim and I will happily read it and see if it jibes with my actual knowledge. If not, perhaps I can put it into better perspective for you. I mean, what were you in 1980, eight years old? Hardly a connoisseur of information then. What year did you actually start studying Star Wars, as a living I mean?

 

[Khev]

Well again, I don't think that ESB itself syncs up with what you're claiming so I'm fine having a difference of belief as to what is considered credible. No big.

But if you want some more details from my side there's Leigh Brackett's first draft of ESB (pre-Lucas and Kasdan tweaks) where the ghost of Anakin himself appears on Dagobah and he asks Luke if Owen ever told him about his sister "Nellith."

https://www.starwarz.com/starkiller...ack-first-draft-by-leigh-brackett-transcript/

(Originally it was Anakin (just called "Skywalker") who sent the twins away when he realized that the Empire was closing in on finding him.)

Then on p. 200 of SW The Annotated Screenplays it states that in the second draft his sister was eliminated from script, but then in revised drafts they had Yoda saying "Now we must find another" after Luke takes off with Ben saying "He is our only hope." In the third draft the exchange goes Ben: "The boy is our last hope" with Yoda saying "No...we must search for another" to which George says "My feeling about Luke being the last hope was really done in an effort to make sure that he was in some jeopardy, that he might not succeed. I was trying to set up subliminally in the audience's mind that something is going on here, that he could fail. And if he does fail, 'there is another hope.' So the audience is saying, 'Don't go, finish your training.'"

And that's it. An ongoing back forth on how big a deal to make of "another" hope without the slightest thought that the other would be Leia. In fact the sister was given an entirely different name.

And then there's Gary Kurtz weighing in as well, it looks like there are still a couple sites with transcripts of his commentary:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-luke-skywalker-sister-leia-retcon/2/

"His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy," he explained in an interview with Film Threat, "and she wasn’t going to show up until the next episode."

 

[ajp4mgs]

There's nothing in the films that requires Snoke to have been the leader of the FO all along. It could have started out with Palps coordinating a secret regathering of various Imperial warlords like Moff Gideon and all their troops who only had limited info as to who they reported to (maybe Snoke in name or maybe some other high ranking member like Pryde who secretly reported to Palps/Snoke.) They start kidnapping kids to "regrow" their army and then as the kids come of age they are advised the identity of their true Supreme Leader and any of the old guard that have a problem with it are either put down or transferred to Exegol. Either scenario would explain why the First Order has so many younger officers compared to the Empire/Final Order.

Moff Gideon is leading a band of Imperial remnants five years after ROTJ. Since we know that Finn was abducted at least 20 years prior to TFA, that puts the FO stormtrooper recruiting effort really close to the Mando timeline. There had to be a massive operation already in place with enough resources to be able to kidnap tens of thousands of children. Plus, all of the slave labor forced upon planets like Rose's homeworld when she was young. That's a HUGE undertaking that requires major resources and power. Organizing this would require clear and authoritative central leadership; one that would negate power-grab attempts.

If Gideon was a part of that operation, he'd be a subordinate to whomever was at the top of the chain of command. If that was Palpatine, there'd need to be an awareness of his survival and his authority. People like Gideon aren't going to be blindly subservient without proof of someone more capable/powerful making subservience necessary. That's presumably what Snoke would be for. Otherwise, what purpose would Snoke serve? Who would the Gideons of the world be answering to without a Supreme Leader?

If those like Gideon knew that Palpatine was the true authority giving orders, and respected his capacity as such, there'd be no need for a Snoke. Therefore, Snoke would've been put in place early on to assume the leadership role.

Any attempt using the Mandalorian show to put these post-TROS pieces together into a coherent FO origin is going to collapse under the weight of common sense and contradictions. If they try to do it, it'll be a huge mistake with their one live-action property that has universal acceptance.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I can't find that last quote at all, its not in the link above it -- just that Kurtz said for Jedi having Leia be the sister was the most eloquent way of tying it all up. And of course that's true.

I don't believe Leigh's original draft -- not sure how many there were -- was ever released back in 1980, so I don't recall having any of that info (I only scanned it obviously, I'll have to read it). But again, I'm speaking from 1980's reveals on... in 1978 there were a lot of crazy ideas afloat I'll admit - look at Splinter in the Mind's Eye.

My point was that at some point in the final stages of ESB, the idea of Leia as Luke's sister was present and being considered -- its necessity came when Lucas decided to end the whole thing and only to be revealed for the final chapter. I'm not sure Lucas had OK'd yet -- probably not as he always kept himself open then. But when Yoda says "there is another" I do not believe that it was agreed upon that it meant Luke had a sister across the galaxy or that it absolutely was NOT Leia. Lucas already had a major reveal for 1980 -- that was the focus, but they knew that the triangle had to be settled, that Luke couldn't hook up with Leia after she chose Han, and that introducing a "new sister" character would somewhat sideline Leia. Then of course there's that scene in ESB -- Williams musical cue with Leia "hearing" Luke that makes such a connection point -- obvious it can be read many ways and was likely intended to -- but I do absolutely believe it was read as Luke's connection to his sister and a prime example looking back of that cue. Perhaps in 1980 it had not be wholly decided but it was a serious option... the obvious option... and certainly became the truth.

As explanation, I devoured everything I could on Star Wars 1977-1983. Admittedly, I never got into the EU and never really absorbed SW again like I had in those early days. But that time period, that little 6 year window, I truly read everything I could get my hands on and had the kind of knowledge that many of you have now that I no longer possess. Also, my friend's sister never could tell me what was going on at LFL obviously, but on occasion she did play a game with me called "guess and see" and I would outline my theories based on what I was reading and assumptions I would make based on the films, and she would give me clues... sometimes I could tell I hit the nail on the head because she'd have to get up and end the game with a smile. It was once such occasion very early on but after ESB where I called the Leia sister bit and got that response. In 1983, she could finally confirm that that was the general decision for Leia very early on (though when that ultimate final call was made I do not know).

 

[Khev]

Moff Gideon is leading a band of Imperial remnants five years after ROTJ. Since we know that Finn was abducted at least 20 years prior to TFA, that puts the FO stormtrooper recruiting effort really close to the Mando timeline. There had to be a massive operation already in place with enough resources to be able to kidnap tens of thousands of children.

Well not to go all "WWII" by mentioning *those* guys but rounding up thousands of people within a few years is certainly doable and in terms of SW would probably require little more than a single rogue Star Destroyer. Show up over a city, give all the inhabitants "Sophie's Choice" (give us your first born or your whole family dies) or do something more sinister like tell the citizens that the town is about to be destroyed, allow them to board the Destroyer to evacuate, then jetison the parents. Point is it really isn't that hard to imagine it playing out in credible fashion and even pretty quickly.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Well not to go all "WWII" by mentioning *those* guys but rounding up thousands of people within a few years is certainly doable and in terms of SW would probably require little more than a single rogue Star Destroyer. Show up over a city, give all the inhabitants "Sophie's Choice" (give us your first born or your whole family dies) or do something more sinister like tell the citizens that the town is about to be destroyed, allow them to board the Destroyer to evacuate, then jetison the parents. Point is it really isn't that hard to imagine it playing out in credible fashion.

Still requires a post-Empire central leader like *those* guys in WWII had. That's where the Palps/Snoke thing comes into play.

 

[Khev]

Still requires a post-Empire central leader like *those* guys in WWII had. That's where the Palps/Snoke thing comes into play.

I think with my Star Destroyer example they'd only need the captains of the destroyers to be suitably "in charge." As I said before if Palpatine could grow Snokes quicker than he could grow himself then I could see him initially using someone like General Pryde to initially lead the "New Empire" that everyone respected before he himself took the reigns as Snoke. Pryde would then publicly acquiesce to Snoke with everyone else assumedly following suit. Again, it's just a sample scenario that works within the screen established conditions.

I didn't mean that Gideon was literally a part of all that (Mando might easily reveal that he's doing his own thing,) I just cited him as an example of someone who might that was in the proper point of the timeline.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I think with my Star Destroyer example they'd only need the captains of the destroyers to be suitably "in charge." As I said before if Palpatine could grow Snokes quicker than he could grow himself then I could see him initially using someone like General Pryde to initially lead the "New Empire" that everyone respected before he himself took the reigns as Snoke. Pryde would then publicly acquiesce to Snoke with everyone else assumedly following suit. Again, it's just a sample scenario that works within the screen established conditions.

I didn't mean that Gideon was literally a part of all that (Mando might easily reveal that he's doing his own thing,) I just cited him as an example of someone who might that was in the proper point of the timeline.

Can't say that your scenario is impossible, but I just see it as unlikely when considering how many FO stormtroopers would've had to have been kidnapped as children when Finn was. And again, there was also onscreen-established FO enslavement on at least one planet. Seems like more of a large-scale effort to me, especially in terms of operating while under the rule of the New Republic.

I dunno, Khev. Maybe I'm just bitter at all those novels and a few comics that I read having been flushed down the canon toilet.

 

[jye4ever]

lol at ajp

You have to admit khev is a master at making it all seem plausible lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wor-Gar]

You have to admit khev is a master at making it all seem plausible lol

That's why he doesn't want me saying: Disney should do their own version of the SE to make their trilogy more coherent.

Because they might muck up his envisioning.

 

[punisher1974]

In the most silly contrived way that explains nothing... an endless line of herself. Who is she? She's..... her?

Luke's face in Vader's mask made a daring and foreboding revelation... that generated an actual question that carried through to the end.

Rey seeing herself walk up through the frosted glass answered nothing and was a simple "out" for the writers to later plant any explanation in and make it work. If she had seen Palpatine through the haze -- now that would have generated endless debate.

Maybe now Disney needs their own Special Edition to better glue this trilogy together now that they know what they did.

Sweet if Disney does a special edition the y make that scene a dance number like west side story.

 

[DiFabio]

Wor and Khev are both wrong.

The "other" Yoda is referring to in ESB is clearly Rey. It was intended to be Rey as far back as 1979.*







*my butt hole

 

[punisher1974]

Going by your asterisk wouldn’t it actually be MAZ butthole eyes

 

[Khev]

I can't find that last quote at all, its not in the link above it

Yes it is, eighth line of the first paragraph.

-- just that Kurtz said for Jedi having Leia be the sister was the most eloquent way of tying it all up. And of course that's true.

I don't believe Leigh's original draft -- not sure how many there were -- was ever released back in 1980, so I don't recall having any of that info (I only scanned it obviously, I'll have to read it). But again, I'm speaking from 1980's reveals on... in 1978 there were a lot of crazy ideas afloat I'll admit - look at Splinter in the Mind's Eye.

My point was that at some point in the final stages of ESB, the idea of Leia as Luke's sister was present and being considered -- its necessity came when Lucas decided to end the whole thing and only to be revealed for the final chapter. I'm not sure Lucas had OK'd yet -- probably not as he always kept himself open then. But when Yoda says "there is another" I do not believe that it was agreed upon that it meant Luke had a sister across the galaxy or that it absolutely was NOT Leia. Lucas already had a major reveal for 1980 -- that was the focus, but they knew that the triangle had to be settled, that Luke couldn't hook up with Leia after she chose Han, and that introducing a "new sister" character would somewhat sideline Leia. Then of course there's that scene in ESB -- Williams musical cue with Leia "hearing" Luke that makes such a connection point -- obvious it can be read many ways and was likely intended to -- but I do absolutely believe it was read as Luke's connection to his sister and a prime example looking back of that cue. Perhaps in 1980 it had not be wholly decided but it was a serious option... the obvious option... and certainly became the truth.

As explanation, I devoured everything I could on Star Wars 1977-1983. Admittedly, I never got into the EU and never really absorbed SW again like I had in those early days. But that time period, that little 6 year window, I truly read everything I could get my hands on and had the kind of knowledge that many of you have now that I no longer possess. Also, my friend's sister never could tell me what was going on at LFL obviously, but on occasion she did play a game with me called "guess and see" and I would outline my theories based on what I was reading and assumptions I would make based on the films, and she would give me clues... sometimes I could tell I hit the nail on the head because she'd have to get up and end the game with a smile. It was once such occasion very early on but after ESB where I called the Leia sister bit and got that response. In 1983, she could finally confirm that that was the general decision for Leia very early on (though when that ultimate final call was made I do not know).

Cool stuff. Thanks, though I don't know that what your friend's sister told you wouldn't sync up with Leia not originally being the other. The SW Annotated Screenplays first mention Leia as the sister in ROTJ's second draft (p. 270.) Well before shooting and I'm sure not too long after the release of Empire as you say. So if she were privy to that (is your friend's last name Fisher ) then she could have definitely clued you in years before people ever saw it confirmed on the big screen.

 

[Khev]

Can't say that your scenario is impossible, but I just see it as unlikely when considering how many FO stormtroopers would've had to have been kidnapped as children when Finn was. And again, there was also onscreen-established FO enslavement on at least one planet. Seems like more of a large-scale effort to me, especially in terms of operating while under the rule of the New Republic.

I dunno, Khev. Maybe I'm just bitter at all those novels and a few comics that I read having been flushed down the canon toilet.

Yes benefit of the doubt is in very short supply for those who weren't into TROS.

That's why he doesn't want me saying: Disney should do their own version of the SE to make their trilogy more coherent.

Because they might muck up his envisioning.

No kidding. Writers need to stop over-explaining everything after a film is released. Sometimes it's better to just allow things to remain ambiguous and let the audience decide if they believe that things really do sync up correctly without the writers getting cocky, opening their mouths and then instantly proving that they don't, lol. The Wachowskis wisely didn't say jack **** about The Matrix and refused to do a commentary for that reason. The EG writers did the opposite and said way too much about the timelines, "rules" and who was doing what to the point that they even publicly contradicted the Russos themselves.

I got this LFL, leave TROS and Palpatine alone now, we're good, lol.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I'm all for mystery. Its the most frustrating thing I've seen in Star Wars is the constant reimagining, re-explaining, dumping the canon, and re-imagining once again. It really makes it hard to keep up with all the misinformation.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Yes it is, eighth line of the first paragraph.

Oh yeah, I found it, thanks, was looking in the lower paragraphs. I'd say that comment comes after 20+ years and much rebuilding of the Star Wars mythology, but I would like to take Kurtz, if anyone, at his word.

Cool stuff. Thanks, though I don't know that what your friend's sister told you wouldn't sync up with Leia not originally being the other. The SW Annotated Screenplays first mention Leia as the sister in ROTJ's second draft (p. 270.) Well before shooting and I'm sure not too long after the release of Empire as you say. So if she were privy to that (is your friend's last name Fisher ) then she could have definitely clued you in years before people ever saw it confirmed on the big screen.

Well it wasn't just me that got wind of or surmised the Leia sister bit. There were others. There's always... "another".

 

[The Buffinator]

I can't find that last quote at all, its not in the link above it -- just that Kurtz said for Jedi having Leia be the sister was the most eloquent way of tying it all up. And of course that's true.

I don't believe Leigh's original draft -- not sure how many there were -- was ever released back in 1980, so I don't recall having any of that info (I only scanned it obviously, I'll have to read it). But again, I'm speaking from 1980's reveals on... in 1978 there were a lot of crazy ideas afloat I'll admit - look at Splinter in the Mind's Eye.

My point was that at some point in the final stages of ESB, the idea of Leia as Luke's sister was present and being considered -- its necessity came when Lucas decided to end the whole thing and only to be revealed for the final chapter. I'm not sure Lucas had OK'd yet -- probably not as he always kept himself open then. But when Yoda says "there is another" I do not believe that it was agreed upon that it meant Luke had a sister across the galaxy or that it absolutely was NOT Leia. Lucas already had a major reveal for 1980 -- that was the focus, but they knew that the triangle had to be settled, that Luke couldn't hook up with Leia after she chose Han, and that introducing a "new sister" character would somewhat sideline Leia. Then of course there's that scene in ESB -- Williams musical cue with Leia "hearing" Luke that makes such a connection point -- obvious it can be read many ways and was likely intended to -- but I do absolutely believe it was read as Luke's connection to his sister and a prime example looking back of that cue. Perhaps in 1980 it had not be wholly decided but it was a serious option... the obvious option... and certainly became the truth.

As explanation, I devoured everything I could on Star Wars 1977-1983. Admittedly, I never got into the EU and never really absorbed SW again like I had in those early days. But that time period, that little 6 year window, I truly read everything I could get my hands on and had the kind of knowledge that many of you have now that I no longer possess. Also, my friend's sister never could tell me what was going on at LFL obviously, but on occasion she did play a game with me called "guess and see" and I would outline my theories based on what I was reading and assumptions I would make based on the films, and she would give me clues... sometimes I could tell I hit the nail on the head because she'd have to get up and end the game with a smile. It was once such occasion very early on but after ESB where I called the Leia sister bit and got that response. In 1983, she could finally confirm that that was the general decision for Leia very early on (though when that ultimate final call was made I do not know).

It sounds to me like your friend's sister was hitting on you, but you were too focused on the Death Star's exhaust port to pick up on it.

 

[Wor-Gar]

It sounds to me like your friend's sister was hitting on you, but you were too focused on the Death Star's exhaust port to pick up on it.

I wish. She was hot. 5 years older though. At that age, that was significant. She did let me make out with her best friend when we were all younger though.