Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Khev]

 

[ajp4mgs]

Anyone who claims they didn?t think Snoke was either Anakin, Emperor or Plaque the tooth destroyer in TFA is lying.

Ok so it ended up being the emperor just roll with it the same way we did with the wacky changes in the OT and PT.




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But "just roll with it" in terms of Palpatine being Snoke means accepting things that are too stupid to believe if you look at the entire trilogy (and saga) as one story.

It means that Palpatine's spirit can survive his physical death in ROTJ, and still exist for some time without a host body after the DS2 explosion. And then survive the bisecting of the Snoke host body (or whatever the **** that was supposed to be). But *now* his spirit is gone for good because . . . reasons?

It means Palpatine went out of his way to have Kylo bring Rey to him on Exogol, but he (as Snoke) already had her at his mercy in his throne room in the previous movie.

It means that even though Palps was able to occupy an able host body (Snoke) *and* carry over his Force abilities (lightning-striking Kylo, tossing Rey around like a doll, and reading minds with ease), he somehow needed to occupy a decrepit cloned body of his former self in TROS. And then needed Rey to strike him down? And then just sucked "life force" out of a dyad? Come on!

And if Snoke/Palpatine was bridging the minds of Kylo and Rey in TLJ, how was he only able to become aware of their "Force dyad" in the third act of TROS? And what clued him off to it that he wouldn't have learned in the previous movie?

Plus, you've got a bunch of Force ghosts wandering around not letting anyone at all know that Palpatine survived, and that he's behind the new problems.

So, um . . . nope, not gonna just roll with it. The midstream adjustments/changes in the OT didn't create logic problems anywhere near the levels of TROS. I can't believe you're drawing a comparison between them.

 

[Khev]

But "just roll with it" in terms of Palpatine being Snoke

Palpatine wasn't Snoke. He made him as he stated in the film. A separate being (assumedly trained to use the Dark Side by Palps himself) engineered to do his bidding. Palps only impersonated Snoke when he was talking to Ben Solo in his head (just like he also did with Vader's voice.) Nothing is out of whack once you see Palps and Snoke as two separate individuals which is what TROS presents them as.

 

[Prime Clone]

Nothing is out of whack once you see Palps and Snoke as two separate individuals which is what TROS presents them as.

Seeing a vat full of Snokes suggested he was just a clone, presumably also inhabited by Palpatine's spirit.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Palpatine wasn't Snoke. He made him as he stated in the film. A separate being (assumedly trained to use the Dark Side by Palps himself) engineered to do his bidding. Palps only impersonated Snoke when he was talking to Ben Solo in his head (just like he also did with Vader's voice.) Nothing is out of whack once you see Palps and Snoke as two separate individuals which is what TROS presents them as.

Is this in the novel? Or are you just assuming this on your own?

Khev, if you can convince me that Snoke wasn't Palps, you might rescue enough of TROS for me to salvage the entire ST. No joke!

Couple questions if you don't mind. 1.) Trained Snoke when? During the OT, or after? and 2.) He created a Force-sensitive being? Midichlorians and all? (In case that question sounds sarcastic, it's not; I'm genuinely curious about this.)

 

[Khev]

First off, Ian McDiarmid just told the crowd at a convention that the extended exchange between him and Adam Driver at the beginning of the movie had Kylo saying "You're a clone" to which Palps replied, "More than a clone, less than a man."

Is this in the novel? Or are you just assuming this on your own?

Khev, if you can convince me that Snoke wasn't Palps, you might rescue enough of TROS for me to salvage the entire ST. No joke!

Couple questions if you don't mind. 1.) Trained Snoke when? During the OT, or after? and 2.) He created a Force-sensitive being? Midichlorians and all? (In case that question sounds sarcastic, it's not; I'm genuinely curious about this.)

Dude, I'd love to salvage the ST for you, lol. I'm basing it off the dialogue in the film where he referred to Snoke in the third person and never said that he was Snoke, only that he was Snoke's voice in his head (again, like he did with Vader's voice and we all know that he and Vader weren't one and the same.) Also now that we know from the novel that a clone body, an "unnatural" one if you will, which also applied to Snoke, couldn't contain his power without being plugged into that stationary device where he was constantly being pumped with fluids.

Also at the con I just referenced above McDiarmid said that Palps was furious that he wasn't full strength and couldn't walk around and was doing everything he could to get to that point again, which means he couldn't have been Snoke because Snoke was fully autonomous and mobile. He elaborated further by saying, "Snoke was also a clone, and that threaded through all the movies [going back to the prequels] is that if there is someone who commits a bad act that they've been influenced either publicly or privately by Palpatine." So again him using the word "influenced" indicates further that he had a hand in Snoke's behavior but wasn't Snoke himself.

So yes I do believe that he created a Force sensitive servant, complete with midichlorians if you want to go there (grumble, grumble, lol). Hell if you want to say that he created Anakin to be a Force sensitive servant then you can even say that post-OT he had perfected the technique so that not even a host mother was required. But that's just if you want to connect it to the PT which is neither here nor there for me.

EDIT: Found a link to the clip: https://twitter.com/senatesidious/status/1233995580709449729

 

[ajp4mgs]

First off, Ian McDiarmid just told the crowd at a convention that the extended exchange between him and Adam Driver at the beginning of the movie had Kylo saying "You're a clone" to which Palps replied, "More than a clone, less than a man."



Dude, I'd love to salvage the ST for you, lol. I'm basing it off the dialogue in the film where he referred to Snoke in the third person and never said that he was Snoke, only that he was Snoke's voice in his head (again, like he did with Vader's voice and we all know that he and Vader weren't one and the same.) Also now that we know from the novel that a clone body, an "unnatural" one if you will, which also applied to Snoke, couldn't contain his power without being plugged into that stationary device where he was constantly being pumped with fluids.

Also at the con I just referenced above McDiarmid said that Palps was furious that he wasn't full strength and couldn't walk around and was doing everything he could to get to that point again, which means he couldn't have been Snoke because Snoke was fully autonomous and mobile. He elaborated further by saying, "Snoke was also a clone, and that threaded through all the movies [going back to the prequels] is that if there is someone who commits a bad act that they've been influenced either publicly or privately by Palpatine." So again him using the word "influenced" indicates further that he had a hand in Snoke's behavior but wasn't Snoke himself.

So yes I do believe that he created a Force sensitive servant, complete with midichlorians if you want to go there (grumble, grumble, lol). Hell if you want to say that he created Anakin to be a Force sensitive servant then you can even say that post-OT he had perfected the technique so that not even a host mother was required. But that's just if you want to connect it to the PT which is neither here nor there for me.

EDIT: Found a link to the clip: https://twitter.com/senatesidious/status/1233995580709449729

Well, ****! This is a game changer for me. What you're saying about Palpatine being frustrated by weakness would indeed seem to suggest that Snoke was his own entity. That part is not in the clip you linked to, but I have no doubt that you described it accurately. As long as the retards at LFL who are in charge of "canon" don't contradict any of this, it wipes away a good dozen or so logic problems that I wouldn't be able to ignore.

I now have to read the TROS novel to make sure it doesn't specify Snoke being inhabited/possessed by Palpatine's spirit. But if it's aligned with the two (Snoke and Palps) being entirely separate essences/beings, you just pulled a magic trick that I didn't think possible. You can't imagine how much trepidation I'm gonna be reading that novel with now.

Damn, man, thanks a ton! Even if official canon screws this up for me, I might be able to just ignore that and stick with what you're describing.

 

[jye4ever]

But "just roll with it" in terms of Palpatine being Snoke means accepting things that are too stupid to believe if you look at the entire trilogy (and saga) as one story.

It means that Palpatine's spirit can survive his physical death in ROTJ, and still exist for some time without a host body after the DS2 explosion. And then survive the bisecting of the Snoke host body (or whatever the **** that was supposed to be). But *now* his spirit is gone for good because . . . reasons?

It means Palpatine went out of his way to have Kylo bring Rey to him on Exogol, but he (as Snoke) already had her at his mercy in his throne room in the previous movie.

It means that even though Palps was able to occupy an able host body (Snoke) *and* carry over his Force abilities (lightning-striking Kylo, tossing Rey around like a doll, and reading minds with ease), he somehow needed to occupy a decrepit cloned body of his former self in TROS. And then needed Rey to strike him down? And then just sucked "life force" out of a dyad? Come on!

And if Snoke/Palpatine was bridging the minds of Kylo and Rey in TLJ, how was he only able to become aware of their "Force dyad" in the third act of TROS? And what clued him off to it that he wouldn't have learned in the previous movie?

Plus, you've got a bunch of Force ghosts wandering around not letting anyone at all know that Palpatine survived, and that he's behind the new problems.

So, um . . . nope, not gonna just roll with it. The midstream adjustments/changes in the OT didn't create logic problems anywhere near the levels of TROS. I can't believe you're drawing a comparison between them.

I didn?t mean he was literally the emperor wearing a mask and gold robe to cover his identity I meant it that he was a servant of the emperor like every other puppet under his spell that does his bidding clone or otherwise.

But like any clone at least in SW his free will is not free at all.

Holy crap if you disregard the SE that means original monkey face emperor in ESB could also be a clone lol




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[ironwez20]

Anyone who claims they didn?t think Snoke was either Anakin, Emperor or Plaque the tooth destroyer in TFA is lying.

Ok so it ended up being the emperor just roll with it the same way we did with the wacky changes in the OT and PT.




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Nobody and I mean nobody would think snoke was the emperor. A knockoff sure but not the emporer

 

[ironwez20]

Did snoke know he was a clone?

 

[ajp4mgs]

I didn?t mean he was literally the emperor wearing a mask and gold robe to cover his identity I meant it that he was a servant of the emperor like every other puppet under his spell that does his bidding clone or otherwise.

But like any clone at least in SW his free will is not free at all.

Holy crap if you disregard the SE that means original monkey face emperor in ESB could also be a clone lol

Then you and Khev were ahead of me on this. Both times I saw TROS, my takeaway was that Palps was "possessing" the Snoke clone (thereby using the Force, and all that ****). I had a HUGE problem with that. If I just stupidly interpreted that incorrectly, totally my bad.

Sorry for misunderstanding what you were saying about how we should "just roll with it." Yeah, I can roll with Snoke being a Palps underling. No problem with that whatsoever. My preference would be for that groundwork (cloning and training Snoke) to have been laid down by Palps in the OT era, but them being totally separate entities is the bigger deal for me.

Did snoke know he was a clone?

That's a good question. The PT troopers knew they were clones, and served faithfully, but it could work either way.

 

[Khev]

In your defense ajp I think I probably blurted out that Palps was Snoke after my initial viewing before I had fully processed everything that I'd seen and heard. You know, "new SW movie overload" and all, lol. Or maybe I read someone else posting it and repeated it without thinking it through because if I think back I remember wondering why Palps would order Rey's execution in Snoke's throne room if they were the same person until I watched it again and the details started to click more.

 

[Prime Clone]

Then you and Khev were ahead of me on this. Both times I saw TROS, my takeaway was that Palps was "possessing" the Snoke clone (thereby using the Force, and all that ****). I had a HUGE problem with that. If I just stupidly interpreted that incorrectly, totally my bad.

No, totally their bad. Possibly the most important aspect of the film that wasn?t properly explained on-screen.

TROS is a failure because we need to piece together extracts from the novel and convention interviews to make any sense of it.

 

[Khev]

Holy crap if you disregard the SE that means original monkey face emperor in ESB could also be a clone lol

Well, ****! This is a game changer for me. What you're saying about Palpatine being frustrated by weakness would indeed seem to suggest that Snoke was his own entity. That part is not in the clip you linked to, but I have no doubt that you described it accurately. As long as the retards at LFL who are in charge of "canon" don't contradict any of this, it wipes away a good dozen or so logic problems that I wouldn't be able to ignore.

I now have to read the TROS novel to make sure it doesn't specify Snoke being inhabited/possessed by Palpatine's spirit. But if it's aligned with the two (Snoke and Palps) being entirely separate essences/beings, you just pulled a magic trick that I didn't think possible. You can't imagine how much trepidation I'm gonna be reading that novel with now.

Damn, man, thanks a ton! Even if official canon screws this up for me, I might be able to just ignore that and stick with what you're describing.

Okay I cannot promise that a Story Group idiot won't screw it up in some new "canon" media but the movie and McDiarmid himself are enough for me.

Also you're right, sorry that clip I posted wasn't complete. Here's the full segment:



He speaks about Palps trying to get back to full bodily strength at the 21:40 mark and how he even was trying to get to the point where his fingers would finally allow Force lightning again which *definitely* disqualifies the notion of him being Snoke!

 

[jye4ever]

Then you and Khev were ahead of me on this. Both times I saw TROS, my takeaway was that Palps was "possessing" the Snoke clone (thereby using the Force, and all that ****). I had a HUGE problem with that. If I just stupidly interpreted that incorrectly, totally my bad.

Sorry for misunderstanding what you were saying about how we should "just roll with it." Yeah, I can roll with Snoke being a Palps underling. No problem with that whatsoever. My preference would be for that groundwork (cloning and training Snoke) to have been laid down by Palps in the OT era, but them being totally separate entities is the bigger deal for me.



That's a good question. The PT troopers knew they were clones, and served faithfully, but it could work either way.

The final movie of my favorite franchise lacked an epic space battle Khev is being too forgiving lol




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[ajp4mgs]

In your defense ajp I think I probably blurted out that Palps was Snoke after my initial viewing before I had fully processed everything that I'd seen and heard. You know, "new SW movie overload" and all, lol. Or maybe I read someone else posting it and repeated it without thinking it through because if I think back I remember wondering why Palps would order Rey's execution in Snoke's throne room if they were the same person until I watched it again and the details started to click more.

Yeah, the logic problems with Snoke were something that I just chalked up to bad writing since I felt like logic flaws in that movie were flying at me nonstop. But if Snoke wasn't intended to have been possesed/inhabited by Palps, the pathway to accepting TROS gets so much easier for me.

I could even assume that Snoke developed First Order plans of his own (like any SW dark side apprentice, he'd work for the eventual overthrowing of his master). In that case, Palps wouldn't have been directly pupeteering specific execution (because he'd still be working to re-establish his vitality). And that'd mean Anakin/Vader *did* accomplish something meaningful, albeit not nearly as meaningful as I'd prefer.

I'm sure the bottom is gonna fall out of this, but I'll enjoy the new perspective for as long as I can.

No, totally their bad. Possibly the most important aspect of the film that wasn?t properly explained on-screen.

TROS is a failure because we need to piece together extracts from the novel and convention interviews to make any sense of it.

Don't harsh my mellow, man.

 

[Khev]

The final movie of my favorite franchise lacked an epic space battle Khev is being too forgiving lol

All the Kylo/Rey/Han/Luke/Leia/Palps/Lando/Babu Frik/Snake bits more than made up for it though, lol. If TROS gave us all that plus an epic space battle then we might never watch RO and ROTJ again, lol.

 

[Khev]

Yeah, the logic problems with Snoke were something that I just chalked up to bad writing since I felt like logic flaws in that movie were flying at me nonstop. But if Snoke wasn't intended to have been possesed/inhabited by Palps, the pathway to accepting TROS gets so much easier for me.

I could even assume that Snoke developed First Order plans of his own (like any SW dark side apprentice, he'd work for the eventual overthrowing of his master). In that case, Palps wouldn't have been directly pupeteering specific execution (because he'd still be working to re-establish his vitality). And that'd mean Anakin/Vader *did* accomplish something meaningful, albeit not nearly as meaningful as I'd prefer.

I'm sure the bottom is gonna fall out of this, but I'll enjoy the new perspective for as long as I can.

No you're right on about all of the above including the evil apprentice (Snoke) once again seemingly working to overthrow his master. At no point did TROS ever have Palps either say anything to Kylo or treat him in a way that felt like an extension of Snoke. Like having him say "I told you to remove that mask," or when he said "the girl lives, perhaps you've betrayed me" he didn't say "betrayed me AGAIN" (if Kylo had bisected him earlier) or any of that. Kylo and Palps had a completely different relationship and dynamic than him and Snoke.

No, totally their bad. Possibly the most important aspect of the film that wasn?t properly explained on-screen.

TROS is a failure because we need to piece together extracts from the novel and convention interviews to make any sense of it.

Except it was explained on screen. Palps *never* said he was Snoke, only that he made him and that he impersonated Snoke and Vader's voices in Kylo's head.

 

[jye4ever]

All the Kylo/Rey/Han/Luke/Leia/Palps/Lando/Babu Frik/Snake bits more than made up for it though, lol. If TROS gave us all that plus an epic space battle then we might never watch RO and ROTJ again, lol.

Dude a great space ground battle along with the great stuff we did get would?ve made this as good if not better than RO and ROTJ and would?ve made TFA/TLJ very acceptable SW lol


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[jye4ever]

No you're right on about all of the above including the evil apprentice (Snoke) once again seemingly working to overthrow his master. At no point did TROS ever have Palps either say anything to Kylo or treat him in a way that felt like an extension of Snoke. Like having him say "I told you to remove that mask," or when he said "the girl lives, perhaps you've betrayed me" he didn't say "betrayed me AGAIN" (if Kylo had bisected him earlier) or any of that. Kylo and Palps had a completely different relationship and dynamic than him and Snoke.



Except it was explained on screen. Palps *never* said he was Snoke, only that he made him and that he impersonated Snoke and Vader's voices in Kylo's head.

You bring up a good point about Kylo killing Snoke.

If anything Kylo saved Rey from that Palpatine aberration almost taking her out of the picture so Snoke not only had free will he was actually exhibiting classic psychotic behavior that can only be attributed to being a clone from a truly messed up host or maybe even hosts.


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