Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[jye4ever]

So Snoke is officially Plagueis reborn. I expect written letters of apology from ajp, TheDucky, Prime Clone, ironwez, TurdFerguson, etc., to be at my doorstep by Monday, lol.

prime upon arriving at said chapter:

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[Khev]

. . . so that Ben could bring him his granddaughter . . . so that he could convince her to strike him down (by telling her his exact evil plan) . . . so he could transfer his soul into her body . . . until he magically realizes that she forms this thing called a "Force dyad" with Ben, so he just sucks their life force (cuz that's always an option) to rejuvenate himself.

All that planning and patience, just to end up being killed because he forgot how to turn off his lightning fingers.

Cool story, bro.

Again you say all that like's it's this big "gotcha" and I simply read your post and go, "yes, yes...well done TROS *well done*", lol.

prime upon arriving at said chapter:

So Plagueis was able to live on after death...as someone else's slave.

Of course Paplatine would have special plans for his former master. Damn...

 

[ajp4mgs]

Again you say all that like's it's this big "gotcha" and I simply read your post and go, "yes, yes...well done TROS *well done*", lol.

Well, okay then.

So, in your mind, if Kylo had killed Rey in TFA (or if she had just never encountered BB-8 or ended up touching the lightsaber), what do you suppose would've been Palpatine's master plan?

He seems to suddenly be desperate to transfer his spirit now that his secret fleet is ready to . . . um, be broken out of the ground (even though they can't equip their shields in atmosphere) and go rule the galaxy. So how would he proceed had there been no Rey? She wasn't born until after ROTJ, so where was this all gonna go?

 

[Khev]

Well, okay then.

So, in your mind, if Kylo had killed Rey in TFA (or if she had just never encountered BB-8 or ended up touching the lightsaber), what do you suppose would've been Palpatine's master plan?

I would think that he would have proceeded with conquering the galaxy as planned but with Kylo as his apprentice while he was fixed on Exegol and his followers continued to try and develop a fully functioning body for him to inhabit.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I would think that he would have proceeded with conquering the galaxy as planned but with Kylo as his apprentice while he was fixed on Exegol and his followers continued to try and develop a fully functioning body for him to inhabit.

Well, Kylo (like Rey) wasn't born until after Palpatine flew off into his clone during ROTJ. So, this master plan to use a third-generation Skywalker to break apart the family and Luke's attempt at a Jedi Order resurgence couldn't have been the plan all along.

Palpatine would've had to be made aware of Skywalker offspring. But if he couldn't find his own granddaughter by using the Force (thereby needing Ochi to hunt her down - to no avail), how the hell could he identify Ben Solo's birth, exact whereabouts, and vulnerabilities? If Palps could find Ben, get in his head, and convince him to do all these things, why would he need Ben/Kylo to deliver Rey to him? Why not just find and manipulate Rey instead of needing a Sith assassin to track her (and fail)?

The same evil Sith who ruined Anakin's family can use the Force to invade Leia's family and ruin Luke's new Jedi Order . . . but Anakin and the other Force ghosts don't even give as much as a single solitary hint to either twin about what's really going on? Even Luke got steered in the right direction (and finally told the truth) by Kenobi's ghost to ensure preservation of the galaxy. Now, Anakin and the others just say, "**** it" when it comes to guidance?

I'm not pestering you with these inane questions just to challenge you to answer them (unless you want to). What I'm getting at is that the more you peel the layers of this onion, the more you'll see how rotten it is at the core. And the reason I believe that to be the case is because this Palpatine-out-of-nowhere story that JJ and Terrio pulled out of their ***** wasn't a planned resolution from the beginning. That's how you get plot holes, and rushed exposition, and ignored explanations, and novels covering the tracks, and yada yada yada. By not following a logical trajectory by way of cohesive narrative.

I'm glad it makes sense to you somehow, but I'm just surprised that it does. That's all.

 

[Khev]

Well, Kylo (like Rey) wasn't born until after Palpatine flew off into his clone during ROTJ. So, this master plan to use a third-generation Skywalker to break apart the family and Luke's attempt at a Jedi Order resurgence couldn't have been the plan all along.

Who said it was. You asked what I thought he'd do during the time of the ST if Rey never showed up so I answered your question. Kylo existed during that time and had obviously been utilized for Palpatine's ends some time prior.

would've had to be made aware of Skywalker offspring. But if he couldn't find his own granddaughter by using the Force (thereby needing Ochi to hunt her down - to no avail), how the hell could he identify Ben Solo's birth, exact whereabouts, and vulnerabilities? If Palps could find Ben, get in his head, and convince him to do all these things, why would he need Ben/Kylo to deliver Rey to him? Why not just find and manipulate Rey instead of needing a Sith assassin to track her (and fail)?

"Find and manipulate her?" What exactly does that mean? Never once in any of the previous films were Palpatine or Vader (or Luke) ever shown to be capable of speaking telepathically to another person that they didn't first have some emotional connection with. We don't know whether Palpatine manipulating Ben through Snoke broke any rules because it wasn't shown so I see no reason not to give it the benefit of the doubt. Palps did want to find and manipulate Rey of course but he was limited in how he communicated with her until they finally met face to face.

The same evil Sith who ruined Anakin's family can use the Force to invade Leia's family and ruin Luke's new Jedi Order . . . but Anakin and the other Force ghosts don't even give as much as a single solitary hint to either twin about what's really going on? Even Luke got steered in the right direction (and finally told the truth) by Kenobi's ghost to ensure preservation of the galaxy. Now, Anakin and the others just say, "**** it" when it comes to guidance?

Again I'm just not seeing where you're coming from here. Rey was provided guidance by a Force ghost. Luke himself. And Yoda assisted Rey by appearing to Luke and giving him a pep talk in the previous movie. Then of course all the others that encouraged her on Exegol. Much more help than what was provided to Luke in the OT.

EDIT: Oh now I see you mean why didn't ghosts warn Luke about Palpatine and Ben's corruption, when you said "twins" for some reason I thought you meant Rey and Ben (go dyad, lol.) Well that's not a question that I would fault the movie for not answering. Who the hell knows why they pick their times to appear and just how capable of choosing those times they even are as a ghost. As has already been mentioned we can easily come up with other times in the OT as well that a Force Spirit could have appeared to offer assistance and they didn't. The reason? The Force moves in mysterious ways, who knows.

I'm not pestering you with these inane questions just to challenge you to answer them (unless you want to). What I'm getting at is that the more you peel the layers of this onion, the more you'll see how rotten it is at the core. And the reason I believe that to be the case is because this Palpatine-out-of-nowhere story that JJ and Terrio pulled out of their ***** wasn't a planned resolution from the beginning. That's how you get plot holes, and rushed exposition, and ignored explanations, and novels covering the tracks, and yada yada yada. By not following a logical trajectory by way of cohesive narrative.

I'm glad it makes sense to you somehow, but I'm just surprised that it does. That's all.

Your questions are fine but they really all appear to be born out of your determination that because you know that JJ and Terrio came in with a shortened time frame that it *must* be rushed, full of holes, garbage, etc., even if you have to dig under every nook and cranny of the story to prove it. Where's the fun in watching a SW movie doing that? Fortunately they did connect the dots with regard to what was shown and wisely left the harder to connect elements (Snoke's initial manipulation of Ben, etc.) off screen so that fans so inclined like myself can fill those gaps well enough on our own. That's the way SW has always been and I'm still cool with it today.

Everything about this movie pushed your buttons and you can't accept any of it and that's fine, *I* just don't see any of those so-called layers that you say you're peeling back as actually revealing any genuine flaws. Not saying the film is perfect or even near perfect, but none of the flaws (and I've got my own list as well) are dealbreakers or really hinder it from being an awesome piece of "fun and mythic" entertainment as JAWS put it earlier.

 

[ajp4mgs]

"Find and manipulate her?" What exactly does that mean? Never once in any of the previous films were Palpatine or Vader (or Luke) ever shown to be capable of speaking telepathically to another person that they didn't first have some emotional connection with. We don't know whether Palpatine manipulating Ben through Snoke broke any rules because it wasn't shown so I see no reason not to give it the benefit of the doubt. Palps did want to find and manipulate Rey of course but he was limited in how he communicated with her until they finally met face to face.

TROS suggests that Palpatine does it with Kylo, but not with Rey (for some unknown reason). When he says, "I am every voice . . . you have *ever* heard . . . inside your head," does that not suggest an ability to do exactly what you're saying shouldn't happen in SW?

Isn't that why we now have something like this in canon?

You keep making it seem like I'm drawing inferences erroneously, and making stuff up, just to bash this movie. Then explain to me why LFL is doubling down on some of the same basic conclusions that I took away from watching it. In those panels above, you see Snoke and Palpatine having equal access to what Ben Solo is doing. You can dismiss the comics all you want, but you know better than to think these writers didn't genuinely draw similar conclusions from what they saw in TROS.

If you want to take Palpatine's "I am every voice . . ." dialogue far from literally, you're certainly entitled to. But what is it that makes you think that my more literal interpretation (which LFL's own writers may end up canonizing) is baseless or invalid?

EDIT: Oh now I see you mean why didn't ghosts warn Luke about Palpatine and Ben's corruption, when you said "twins" for some reason I thought you meant Rey and Ben (go dyad, lol.) Well that's not a question that I would fault the movie for not answering. Who the hell knows why they pick their times to appear and just how capable of choosing those times they even are as a ghost. As has already been mentioned we can easily come up with other times in the OT as well that a Force Spirit could have appeared to offer assistance and they didn't. The reason? The Force moves in mysterious ways, who knows.

For me, you can't have Force ghosts establish an inclination to guide the living Jedi in the OT during perilous times and then bring the same situation back 30 years later in the ST and have them suddenly doing the opposite. Anakin's spirit knowing Palpatine is behind all this, and choosing not to guide his son and daughter so as to prevent even more tragedy than the PT and OT creates a cognitive dissonance for me.

Having Luke cut himself off from the Force in TLJ was one of my favorite decisions (among many problem-corrective ones that most people totally overlook) because it gave a reason for Luke not being able to get guidance from Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. And as soon as he taps back into the Force, he gets guidance from Yoda. That makes logical sense with what Force ghosts context was established in the OT.

But to believe that Anakin wouldn't know Palpatine's involvement, and wouldn't guide his kids by making them aware of the truth, is something that doesn't sit well with me because it doesn't seem consistent. It's not a huge deal, but it's just one of many things.

Your questions are fine but they really all appear to be born out of your determination that because you know that JJ and Terrio came in with a shortened time frame that it *must* be rushed, full of holes, garbage, etc., even if you have to dig under every nook and cranny of the story to prove it. Where's the fun in watching a SW movie doing that? Fortunately they did connect the dots with regard to what was shown and wisely left the harder to connect elements (Snoke's initial manipulation of Ben, etc.) off screen so that fans so inclined like myself can fill those gaps well enough on our own. That's the way SW has always been and I'm still cool with it today.

Everything about this movie pushed your buttons and you can't accept any of it and that's fine, I just don't see any of those so-called layers that you say you're peeling back as actually revealing any genuine flaws. Not saying the film is perfect or even "near perfect," but none of the flaws (and I've got my own list as well) are dealbreakers or really hinder it from being an awesome piece of "fun and mythic" entertainment as JAWS put it earlier.

Khev, I read all the plot leaks and knew where this movie was going months in advance. The shortcomings and logic fallacies were already evident before ever seeing this thing on screen. In fact, the main hope I had for the actual movie was the thought that there's no way the leaks could be true . . . because they were too hilariously stupid to be true. I wasn't the only one (far from it!). If you don't believe me, go back and read the posts about TROS plot leaks.

You think I'm out to hate this movie. What you don't seem to understand is that every bad movie has fans of it who think it's great. Apologists exist for every film. That doesn't make me hell-bent to hate those movies when that happens to be the case; I hate those movies because I think they're awful. TROS just happens to be one of them. Narrative, thematic presentation, editing, plot building, character motives . . . I genuinely find many subpar components.

 

[Prime Clone]

So Snoke is officially Plagueis reborn. I expect written letters of apology from ajp, TheDucky, Prime Clone, ironwez, TurdFerguson, etc., to be at my doorstep by Monday, lol.

Wait Khev, didn?t you say the novel doesn?t count?

prime upon arriving at said chapter:

?Memba JJ?s reaction when asked about Plagueis: ?Who??

 

[Khev]

TROS suggests that Palpatine does it with Kylo, but not with Rey (for some unknown reason). When he says, "I am every voice . . . you have *ever* heard . . . inside your head," does that not suggest an ability to do exactly what you're saying shouldn't happen in SW?

Isn't that why we now have something like this in canon?

You keep making it seem like I'm drawing inferences erroneously, and making stuff up, just to bash this movie. Then explain to me why LFL is doubling down on some of the same basic conclusions that I took away from watching it. In those panels above, you see Snoke and Palpatine having equal access to what Ben Solo is doing. You can dismiss the comics all you want, but you know better than to think these writers didn't genuinely draw similar conclusions from what they saw in TROS.

If you want to take Palpatine's "I am every voice . . ." dialogue far from literally, you're certainly entitled to. But what is it that makes you think that my more literal interpretation (which LFL's own writers may end up canonizing) is baseless or invalid?



For me, you can't have Force ghosts establish an inclination to guide the living Jedi in the OT during perilous times and then bring the same situation back 30 years later in the ST and have them suddenly doing the opposite. Anakin's spirit knowing Palpatine is behind all this, and choosing not to guide his son and daughter so as to prevent even more tragedy than the PT and OT creates a cognitive dissonance for me.

Having Luke cut himself off from the Force in TLJ was one of my favorite decisions (among many problem-corrective ones that most people totally overlook) because it gave a reason for Luke not being able to get guidance from Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda. And as soon as he taps back into the Force, he gets guidance from Yoda. That makes logical sense with what Force ghosts context was established in the OT.

But to believe that Anakin wouldn't know Palpatine's involvement, and wouldn't guide his kids by making them aware of the truth, is something that doesn't sit well with me because it doesn't seem consistent. It's not a huge deal, but it's just one of many things.

Honestly you pretty much just repeat everything you said in your last post so I guess I'll just let my original reply (that you quote heavily above without really addressing) stand. Sorry but I just don't know what else to say.

, I read all the plot leaks and knew where this movie was going months in advance. The shortcomings and logic fallacies were already evident before ever seeing this thing on screen. In fact, the main hope I had for the actual movie was the thought that there's no way the leaks could be true . . . because they were too hilariously stupid to be true. I wasn't the only one (far from it!).

Yeah I think you really poisoned your experience of this movie along with all usual YouTuber bashers by actively seeking out the leaks and allowing them to be fed to you by people that would spin them in the worst way possible which is too bad.

 

[Khev]

Wait Khev, didn?t you say the novel doesn?t count?

Well once again:

Okay I obviously don't take the novelization as gospel in areas where it contradicts the film but holy crap....are all the Snoke theorists sitting down?

No like really sitting down? You ready for this....

The novelization states that Palpatine's minions were doing all sorts of experiments involving gene splicing and mutation from multiple clone donors including a particularly powerful host that provided his most powerful Force sensitive puppet of all:

Spoiler

Supreme Leader Snoke grown from the DNA of his former master DARTH PLAGUEIS.

And he used Snoke to corrupt and then test Ben Solo, always hoping that Ben would grow capable of killing Snoke at which point he would announce his presence to the galaxy to finally draw his worthy Skywalker apprentice to meet him.

 

[Prime Clone]

Ah, gotcha.

Still, a puppet Plagueis wasn't quite what I had in mind. I wanted him to be fully in command as final revenge on Palps.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Honestly you pretty much just repeat everything you said in your last post so I guess I'll just let my original reply (that you quote heavily above without really addressing) stand. Sorry but I just don't know what else to say.

Huh!? You asked me what I meant about Palpatine being able (or not) to find and manipulate Rey since I asserted that he did that with Kylo. You said there's no evidence for the Kylo manipulation in the movie. So, I responded by pointing out how Palpatine said, "I am every voice . . . you have *ever* heard . . . inside your head." Then I went on to explain how I take that literally, and provided an image from a new comic to show you more connective tissue to that interpretation.

If you simply want me to go further, I can point out that Kylo was communing with Vader's helmet in TFA and presumably getting guidance from it. Who was Vader's voice in Kylo's head? Is it not fair now to draw an inference from TROS that it would've been Palpatine? He can be heard speaking in his voice, Snoke's voice, and Vader's voice as Kylo descends into Palpatine's lair. Was Palps just doing voice impersonations that he knew would match what Kylo had heard in his head (knowing that Kylo would have no clue what Vader sounded like)?

To me, TROS makes it seem like Palps was manipulating Kylo in his thoughts from a long time ago. As Snoke, and as Vader. Do you just think I'm way off base?

Yeah I think you really poisoned your experience of this movie along with all usual YouTuber bashers by actively seeking out the leaks and allowing them to be fed to you by people that would spin them in the worst way possible which is too bad.

It's certainly possible that I poisoned my experience by reading plot leaks, but it wasn't because of how they were fed to me. I was reading them mainly from two sources who were very pro-ST. I thought the plot points were completely ridiculous on my own, and actually in contrast to the leakers' editorial notes.

But maybe reading leaks was indeed a problem. I'll never know if avoiding the plot leaks would've improved my experience with TROS.

BTW, if I'm correctly reading that you're agitated, I want to assure you that I haven't been trying to be antagonistic. I'm just giving you my point of view, trying to understand yours, and doing my best to give you my rationale when I see things differently.

 

[ironwez20]

Damn ajp hitting you guys hard

 

[Prime Clone]

Nothing like a robust but civil debate!

Much as I'm liking the clone revelations in the novel, I would've rated the movie a lot higher had it found time to cover them. Seems like LFL may have pulled a BvS on JJ.

Though calling Rey Palps's granddaughter in the film would seem to be a revision of the novel/original script (unless that was just Kylo's choice of words?)

 

[Khev]

Huh!? You asked me what I meant about Palpatine being able (or not) to find and manipulate Rey since I asserted that he did that with Kylo. You said there's no evidence for the Kylo manipulation in the movie. So, I responded by pointing out how Palpatine said, "I am every voice . . . you have *ever* heard . . . inside your head." Then I went on to explain how I take that literally, and provided an image from a new comic to show you more connective tissue to that interpretation.

I was referring to the initial contact between Palpatine and/or Snoke and Ben Solo that led to him turning to the Dark Side. That all happened long before TFA so we can't say what it actually entailed. Yes of course I know that Palpatine was in his head after that silly, lol. You asked why didn't he do the same thing to Rey when we don't even have any context for what "the same thing" would entail because we didn't see what he originally did to Ben. All we have to go on is what *has* been shown on screen which were Force users (OT Ben, Luke, Vader, PT Palps, TLJ Rey and Kylo) speaking telepathically to people that they had an intense (positive or negative) emotional connection with. Palpatine would have had no such connection with Rey nor would she be a willing recipient to his communication which would have also been in contrast with all those other examples I just mentioned.

Now had Palpatine survived TROS then I think that Rey might have been vulnerable the same way that Luke could hear Vader after their emotional connection on Cloud City but that's obviously moot.

It's certainly possible that I poisoned my experience by reading plot leaks, but it wasn't because of how they were fed to me. I was reading them mainly from two sources who were very pro-ST. I thought the plot points were completely ridiculous on my own, and actually in contrast to the leakers' editorial notes.

But maybe reading leaks was indeed a problem. I'll never know if avoiding the plot leaks would've improved my experience with TROS.

If I had to guess, you caught wind that they were going to be walking back certain elements of TLJ (which they obviously did) and so you just threw your hands up in the air feeling like they were bailing on people like you who were fans of the direction that movie took the story? And what's weird is that because of TROS my misgivings about TLJ have all mostly gone away.

BTW, if I'm correctly reading that you're agitated, I want to assure you that I haven't been trying to be antagonistic. I'm just giving you my point of view, trying to understand yours, and doing my best to give you my rationale when I see things differently.

Oh not agitated by your point of view or anything, I just had a moment of hnnng he's gonna make me retype my entire last post, lol. But I believe I see what caused the disconnect now. I should have deleted that line asking what you meant by manipulating Rey because I answered one way, then figured out what you meant and went back and edited it but I didn't delete my stupid lead off question. My bad.

 

[jye4ever]

Damn ajp hitting you guys hard

ajp is indeed a great adversary higher quality than most.


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[Khev]

Though calling Rey Palps's granddaughter in the film would seem to be a revision of the novel/original script (unless that was just Kylo's choice of words?)

Palpatine himself called her his grandchild when she faced him on Exegol, so yeah, definitely in conflict with the book. Which is fine, the original SW novelization said that Luke was in Blue Squadron not Red, that his Landspeeder wasn't a convertible, and had Chewie receiving a medal. Yoda in the ESB novelization was blue and so on so book to movie contradictions are nothing new but until now people used to always throw out the portions of the book that didn't match the films instead of acting like the book is right and the movie is wrong which is what a lot of people are doing with Rey's lineage in TROS.

She's his granddaughter, not the daughter of a non-identical clone. The movie was crystal clear on that.

 

[JAWS]

ajp watching TROS:

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Man what a perfect way to look at it. Palpatine knew that if he just revealed himself early that the heroes would immediately unite and be all "let's kill him properly this time" so instead of coming back as Thanos he played the Zemo card first and tore them apart from within.

By sending a proxy (Snoke) he also tricked Luke into thinking that the legacy of the Jedi is failure since it looked like no matter what good was achieved there would always be a power vacuum to draw in more evil and cause it to ascend for things to always be in "balance." That deceived Luke into believing that hope was pointless and that conflict was inevitable with the Dark Side always sending a new agent to counter the Light when it was really just Palpatine all along. TFA Maz was wrong too since she said that the fight must go on forever since the Dark Side will always rise in a different form ("the Sith, the Empire, now the First Order"). Nope it was always Palpatine and destroying him forever ends the cycle and restores hope to the galaxy and the Jedi.

/\ HOLY CRAP /\

I mean seriously.....

HOLY CRAP!

JAWS rises and KHEV to meet it lol

Man once you start reading into Snokes dialogue about potential of bloodlines and Kylo having too much of his fathers heart in him things start to fit in quite nicely if one chooses to squint just a little lol

I love the whole concept of taking Luke out of commission and isolating himself by using family to sow distrust and confusion and doing all this with a silly clone proxy.




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They released footage of JAWS arrival back into the TROS forum:

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Okay I obviously don't take the novelization as gospel in areas where it contradicts the film but holy crap....are all the Snoke theorists sitting down?

No like really sitting down? You ready for this....

The novelization states that Palpatine's minions were doing all sorts of experiments involving gene splicing and mutation from multiple clone donors including a particularly powerful host that provided his most powerful Force sensitive puppet of all:

Spoiler

Supreme Leader Snoke grown from the DNA of his former master DARTH PLAGUEIS.

And he used Snoke to corrupt and then test Ben Solo, always hoping that Ben would grow capable of killing Snoke at which point he would announce his presence to the galaxy to finally draw his worthy Skywalker apprentice to meet him.

Does that contradict the movie??? I mean they don't say who Snoke was or where the DNA came from right?

 

[Khev]

Does that contradict the movie??? I mean they don't say who Snoke was or where the DNA came from right?

The movie never says where Snoke came from so we're free to take or leave the book explanation as canon. Now I actually love the idea of Palpatine keeping a collection of Sno-I mean Plagueis clones in tubes for whatever sick whim that might strike him.

 

[JAWS]

Keep enjoying the ride as you squint through TROS. But just remember not to think about it too hard or ask questions . . .

. . . so that Ben could bring him his granddaughter . . . so that he could convince her to strike him down (by telling her his exact evil plan) . . . so he could transfer his soul into her body . . . until he magically realizes that she forms this thing called a "Force dyad" with Ben, so he just sucks their life force (cuz that's always an option) to rejuvenate himself.

All that planning and patience, just to end up being killed because he forgot how to turn off his lightning fingers.​

I have no idea what your feeling are about the PT but the Emperor is kinda famous for long elaborate plans that eventually blow up in his face

Perhaps his force lighting was like me playing a video game when I think if I just go full force into a boss battle because I think I got him beat.. I take massive damage.. Sometimes I win... and sometimes I die.

Perhaps he thought he could win if He just kept pushing the attack X button instead of using the R1 Dodge button.

... In a way he did.. She did die. He just used up all of his life also... I been there ​