ajp is all don't worry I got this:
lol
Yep.. He nailed it.
Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER
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Yep.. He nailed it.
LOl unfortunately I?ve seen TLJ all three acts two times once in the cinema and then later at home because my wife wanted to troll me uh I mean watch the movie that had annoyed me so much. You?ve kind of made my point for me... TLJ is a mirror of Luke?s arc from the entire OT, very simply he starts off as a whiny baby who fails and then comes through at the end completely embodying what it means to be a Jedi (throwing away his sabre in ROTJ and then force projection in TLJ, which I like by the way)... but I?ve seen it before (Han is the same, he becomes smuggler bum again and then eventually comes through for his family / friends). In fact I?ve seen the entire ST before it?s called the OT.
Do you know who don?t go on any journeys or have any arcs?? That?s right the new cast, Finn, Poe, Rose, BB8, Hux, supreme leader gender studies, nose lady, Jannah and her amazing star destroyer riding horses etc. What would you say their arcs are? Rey doesn?t either really, she starts off awesome gets even more awesome and totally wins every time ... at a push she wants her family to come back then she finds out their wrongens so she decides that she is now Nu improved Skywalker (I thought she was going to realise that your friends are the family you choose or something mushy like OT Han did but not Rey?s style). Kylo has an arc, it?s cheap copy of OT Vader?s arc (but that Adam Driver is fine actor so he makes it work).
Rant over ... Ducky, Talibane, Ironwez resume bombardment of the puny resistance I mean rebel base (aka Jye, Khev, Jaws and their sometimes leader, the mighty bombard AJP (I?m only joking, I really enjoy all your posts).
Finally PT > ST (my allegiance has been declared lol)
Do you know who don?t go on any journeys or have any arcs?? That?s right the new cast, Finn, Poe, Rose, BB8, Hux, supreme leader gender studies, nose lady, Jannah and her amazing star destroyer riding horses etc. What would you say their arcs are? Rey doesn?t either really, she starts off awesome gets even more awesome and totally wins every time ... at a push she wants her family to come back then she finds out their wrongens so she decides that she is now Nu improved Skywalker (I thought she was going to realise that your friends are the family you choose or something mushy like OT Han did but not Rey?s style). Kylo has an arc, it?s cheap copy of OT Vader?s arc (but that Adam Driver is fine actor so he makes it work).
Rant over ... Ducky, Talibane, Ironwez resume bombardment of the puny resistance I mean rebel base (aka Jye, Khev, Jaws and their sometimes leader, the mighty bombard AJP (I?m only joking, I really enjoy all your posts).
Finally PT > ST (my allegiance has been declared lol)
What are you missing here? How in the hell are the intentions the same when the people he turned his intentions on are completely different? Do I really have to rephrase this? You are trying to find some loop out, you can't 
Intentions are based on prior actions. I intend to touch the stove when I was three. I burned my self. Five years later when I'm 8, I intend to touch the stove. But guess what? The stove will burn me, bad. So, I don't do it.
You know why Luke changed his intentions with Vader? Because Vader has actually done evil **** before and can do it again. His "change of intentions" was justified based on Vader's past actions. Vader will burn you.
Why did Luke change his intentions with Ben? Ben did NOTHING. He did nothing wrong. Nothing. He had no reason to change his intentions, least of all from a damn dream to a kid who did nothing in the past. Luke knows Ben can't burn him.
Yoda told Luke in ESB "Always in motion is the future" so seeing that dream and plotting to murder Ben is complete ****.
Even if what you are saying is true about intentions, Luke learned NOTHING decades later from Yoda. Complete failure of a Jedi to act on something that is always in motion. Another joke of a decision.
There is absolutely no way to defend that scene. Your trying to say he changed his intentions so he is the same character? No. Just no.
He never gave Ben a chance like he did Vader. Never. Where was his chance he gave to Ben? When did he try to turn Ben back to the light if he was so corruptible? He gave the chance to an evil space nazi but not Ben? He confronts his father without igniting his saber but not Ben?
It is the dumbest and worst scene in the history of Star Wars.
Three ways now that scene has been interpreted and no matter which way you want it, I can always find how much of a joke it is.
ajp4mgs
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You make a lot of strong points about the lack of originality in the ST. And if I didn't hate TROS, I'd counter some of your other points that I have seen differently. So, I'll just make one counter-argument regarding TLJ, because no amount of retconning and pacifying will ever make me dislike that film.
When you ask about what the arcs are of third-tier characters, you're ignoring the fact that some of them (especially the ones introduced in TLJ) only existed to push the character development of primary and secondary characters.
Holdo existed to show Poe that when you're outnumbered, overall survival is a more valuable tactic than trying to sink their battleship. Real rebellions aren't fought like board games. They're often about mere survival, in the hopes that more numbers join your cause when they see oppressive tactics and overwhelming odds from the other side.
Rose existed to show Finn that running away from the First Order is great, but he then needs to run *toward* those who are trying to stop them. Rose had to let Finn know that Rey isn't the only worthy person who Finn needs to help survive.
Now sure, you can rightly argue that TROS went nowhere with the character development being set up, but that's where you and I would agree.
As far as Rey, your assertion that she got even more awesome (in terms of being unstoppable) in TLJ falls totally flat with me. She was humbled at every turn. Couldn't persuade Luke, couldn't persuade Kylo, and needed to be bailed out by Kylo after she was thoroughly owned by Snoke. Yeah, she lifted rocks (maybe; I still think the confused look on her face suggests that Luke was doing something there too) and she fought off the PG. No big deal; she had to have at least some wins.
But I loved reading your post, as I always do, and regret that you don't post more often.
Intentions are based on prior actions. I intend to touch the stove when I was three. I burned my self. Five years later when I'm 8, I intend to touch the stove. But guess what? The stove will burn me, bad. So, I don't do it.
You know why Luke changed his intentions with Vader? Because Vader has actually done evil **** before and can do it again. His "change of intentions" was justified based on Vader's past actions. Vader will burn you.
Why did Luke change his intentions with Ben? Ben did NOTHING. He did nothing wrong. Nothing. He had no reason to change his intentions, least of all from a damn dream to a kid who did nothing in the past. Luke knows Ben can't burn him.
Yoda told Luke in ESB "Always in motion is the future" so seeing that dream and plotting to murder Ben is complete ****.
Even if what you are saying is true about intentions, Luke learned NOTHING decades later from Yoda. Complete failure of a Jedi to act on something that is always in motion. Another joke of a decision.
There is absolutely no way to defend that scene. Your trying to say he changed his intentions so he is the same character? No. Just no.
He never gave Ben a chance like he did Vader. Never. Where was his chance he gave to Ben? When did he try to turn Ben back to the light if he was so corruptible? He gave the chance to an evil space nazi but not Ben? He confronts his father without igniting his saber but not Ben?
It is the dumbest and worst scene in the history of Star Wars.
Three ways now that scene has been interpreted and no matter which way you want it, I can always find how much of a joke it is.
Jeezus H . . . (sigh)
Okay, this isn't really worth my time but I'll try to get through to you anyway. You know why Luke would be tempted to kill his nephew? Precisely *because of* his father!! You're dancing all around it, but you're just not seeing it.
Luke knows that Anakin was once a good man, and that the efforts of great mentors like Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn't keep him from succumbing to the powerful draw of the dark side. When Luke looked at Ben, he saw a repeat of what had happened to Anakin, his own father. That reality was already well in motion.
You act like Luke was completely oblivious to Ben's dark tendencies, when the movie actually explicitly lays out that Luke was aware of Ben's growing darkness, but just had no idea how deep it ran. And since you're a PT fan, you'll know that Master Kenobi and Master Yoda couldn't see the darkness in Palpatine, nor the rising darkness in Anakin. So, what does that tell you? That they shouldn't have tried to stop them sooner had they known? Luke was actually better able to discern it in Ben, but not enough.
And if Ben hadn't attacked Luke, you think he'd let his nephew go to that dark place in the visions without trying to reason with him? But Ben left Luke for dead and *killed his students* thereafter! When Luke got up, his first sight was his temple burning, and pupils dead on the ground because his nephew had slaughtered them. The dark visions were already manifested. Luke was left with the heavy burden of those sons and daughters he took charge of in their youth being slaughtered by his nephew. How would you react?
Luke saw it coming, wanted to stop it, couldn't let himself go dark that way, and then was prevented from reasoning with his nephew because everything escalated immediately and cemented his fears.
Oh I understand all the angles TLJ defenders play with this scene. Luke judges one man based on the actions of another and has no faith in himself as a teacher because he knows he is a failure. Even dumber.
So, Luke knows about Ben's darkness, STILL doesn't talk to him about it AT ANY POINT or try to reason with him, THEN stands over him plotting Ben's murder, THEN "changes his intentions" THEN completely gives up on him.
He didn't try to stop **** except when he contemplated murdering him. Had all the time in the world. So, this explanation now just makes Luke into an awful failed teacher.
Again, why don't we see Luke talking to Ben? Why don't we see him trying to get Ben to work through his feelings? Why do we only see Luke wanting to kill Ben?
What about these questions then?
"He never gave Ben a chance like he did Vader. Never. Where was his chance he gave to Ben? When did he try to turn Ben back to the light if he was so corruptible? He gave the chance to an evil space nazi but not Ben? He confronts his father without igniting his saber but not Ben?"
"Yoda told Luke in ESB "Always in motion is the future" so seeing that dream and plotting to murder Ben is complete ****" Why didn't he take the advice of Yoda then?
I'm not dancing around anything, you are. You can't answer these questions because the ****** movie never bothers to think about them, let alone show them. Or, is this one of those cases where I have to read a comic, art book, play a video game, and the novelization before understanding it? If so, then that is just awful character depiction and awful film making.
There is no defense whatsoever for that scene. None. Every single interpretation ends with Rian Johnson being one of the worst directors of all time and completely ignoring misunderstanding forgetting things... OR... it ends with Luke was a complete failure going against everything he is as a character because he either
A.) Plots murdering his sleeping nephew who did nothing wrong all over a dream/vision that he was told by his own master many years ago that the future is always in motion so he can't take that as face value. Which makes him a failed pupil, master, and Uncle.
B.) Knows about the darkness all along and does absolutely nothing about it, despite giving his father chances, he inexplicably doesn't give Ben a chance or confront him? WHAT? You're entire argument is based around Luke doing the same course of actions, your "quickly changing his intentions," bit so, if Luke is actually who you say he is, the same guy as he was in ROTJ, why didn't he confront his nephew and give him a chance! THAT would be consistent with OT Luke. But no, he doesn't do this because it's a **** movie with **** characterization that turns Luke into yet again a failed master and uncle completely against who he was in ROTJ. AKA Jake Skywalker.
They knew the dangers of training him right from TPM. Yoda had an idea about what he did during AOTC and Qui-Gon was there watching the whole thing, probably told em later. Kenobi somewhat knew about Anakin's darkness and romance with Padme, hinted throughout the EU and Clone Wars.
Me watching two TROS bashers go at it:
lol
lol
JAWS...
Han didn't do anything of value in the ST. That wasn't Han to me in TROS.
I really don't know how I know that Leia did anything in the ST. TFA - nothing. TLJ - Mary Poppins. TROS - Mind raper and dies doing it.
Luke's little speech was meaningless. Mary Rey Sue can just believe in something and be instantly good at it. She finally believed in the force and knew how to use it at an insanely high level. I'm sure she would have found her way without Luke, I mean, it's not like Luke really did anything with her in TLJ except show her how to milk a space cow.
In the movie when Palpatine says the princess ruined our plan or whatever. He could sense Kylo turning back.
Idealized because they haven't seen each other in years and left on bad terms, projection is what Han should have been, not how he was depicted in the ST.
Han didn't do anything of value in the ST. That wasn't Han to me in TROS.
I really don't know how I know that Leia did anything in the ST. TFA - nothing. TLJ - Mary Poppins. TROS - Mind raper and dies doing it.
Luke's little speech was meaningless. Mary Rey Sue can just believe in something and be instantly good at it. She finally believed in the force and knew how to use it at an insanely high level. I'm sure she would have found her way without Luke, I mean, it's not like Luke really did anything with her in TLJ except show her how to milk a space cow.
In the movie when Palpatine says the princess ruined our plan or whatever. He could sense Kylo turning back.
Idealized because they haven't seen each other in years and left on bad terms, projection is what Han should have been, not how he was depicted in the ST.
Palpatine sensed that Leia reached out to Ben, not that she "created" Han's image, which happened after her death. If you want to say that Han showed up because of Leia okay fine, her spirit contacted his and guided him to Kylo.
It's pretty much this non-stop
Oh man so true.
Thanks for the post AJP ha I knew you would get me on my over simplification of the ST characters but I still find them largely derivative of the OT.
Ducky that gif about sums us all up. We are like all the Jedi rising to meet all the Sith all the time lol! For fun we should all change sides for 24 hours, argue from the other perspective.
Ducky that gif about sums us all up. We are like all the Jedi rising to meet all the Sith all the time lol! For fun we should all change sides for 24 hours, argue from the other perspective.
You're a good guy TaliBane but man you've got the bad take to end all bad takes on this one, lol. I think this is a definite case of "quit while you're behind" and spare yourself further embarrassment.
Maybe it's just the lockdown getting to you. Now I'm picturing your wife stumbling on your writings and freaking out as she goes page by page reading nothing but "All Light Side and no Dark Side makes Luke a dull boy," lol.
I think this is where the disconnect is. When Luke surrendered to Vader and the emperor, you are right, he didn't have the intention of killing Vader. He wanted to turn him to the light. However, as the fight progressed, he gave in more and more to the dark side. Eventually he did fight with the intent to kill. That intent was there all the way to the point he disarms (literally) Vader:
Remember Yoda's teachings? Where he says that you are in the good side when you are "calm and at peace"? He definitely wasn't calm or at peace there. Yoda also says a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never to attack. What did Luke do there?
Now whether or not you count the novels, you can't deny the 1983 novel was taken from the original script. From the book:
Watch the clip above, it matches exactly what was written in the book. The book's publisher confirms that the books are canon where the films align. This definitely aligns IMO.
This is technically incorrect. Luke did not go in there with his lightsaber in hand. He went in there with his lightsaber hanging on his belt, like almost every Jedi (remember how Jedi aren't supposed to simply leave their lightsabers around?
There's the scene in question above. He goes in, inquisitive. He is trying to read his student. What he sees terrifies him to the point where he ignites his saber. Look at his face, that's fear in his eyes, not murderous intent. He never even tries to swing his saber. The only move he makes with his saber is to block Ben's attack.
I gotta give TaliBane credit for getting me to reconsider Luke's ROTJ intentions, even for just a single second.
I'm not going to fault anyone for thinking that the execution of that final confrontation between Luke and Vader could've been better, but I think it was damn near perfect. To me, the key to understanding how and why Luke changed so much in that moment of rage is understanding how the trigger point of Vader's mention of turning Leia to the dark side altered Luke's intentions.
Up until that moment, Luke was doing whatever he could to avoid a fatal outcome with his father. His mindset was, "if I can't turn you back to the light, you'll have to kill me." That's the selflessness of Luke; and selflessness is the one consistent character trait that he always had (no, he wasn't always optimistic; and no, he wasn't always in control of his emotions).
When Vader threatened to turn Leia to the dark, it was no longer just about "I'll turn you good again, or die trying;" now it was about "no ****ing way am I going to let you corrupt my sister; I'll kill you if I have to in order to *save her* from that."
That angry burst of aggression was taking Luke closer to the dark side, no matter how selfless his original motive was. But he didn't cross the line. Instead of killing a twisted member of his family who was lying there at his mercy, even knowing that might save those he loves, Luke turned away from that impulse and was willing to just let himself die instead. (Sound familiar?)
I've never seen such evasive crap from people I respect on here.
Let's make this 100% clear:In ROTJ, right up to the moment of Vader's "sister" comment (3/4 of way through duel), Luke has ZERO intention of killing Vader. Then, for a total of SIXTY SECONDS, the last minute of the duel, he is triggered.
The ONLY THINGS that happen in Luke's supposed one minute of "giving in to the dark side" are he fights better/with more power and he has an angry face (same face he has while chopping up dozens of Jabba's goons earlier, but no darkside there) not unlike the face of a boxer/athlete pushing their limit.
I mean does Rocky give in to hate and the darkside when he defeats Clubber Lang?
The bad guy - in the heat of the final battle - making some kind of personal threat or insult triggering the hero to explode and win the battle is a Hollywood staple, but here apparently the hero turns to pure murderous evil, the same thing as slaughtering child students.When Luke's sixty seconds ends and Vader is defeated, Luke INSTANTLY goes back to normal and importantly, doesn't kill Vader even when he now can, BEFORE Palps re-enters the picture. If Luke's a raging, darkside-possessed murderer, why doesn't he immediately kill Vader then?
How people conflate this into some garbage about Luke giving in to evil and having murder on his mind I have no idea. Regardless of what the filmmakers tried to signal, it isn't onscreen. I don't give a **** if this is the first you guys are hearing this heresy, but it's the truth.
And in TLJ - I mean earnest posts a YT video with titled "Luke Tries To Kill Ben Solo" as proof... that Luke isn't trying to kill Ben Solo? I mean WTF?!
To clarify one more time, here's what happens in earnest's own video, the TLJ scene beat for beat:
In the middle of the night, Luke arrives in the hut of his sleeping BOY STUDENT apparently because he "sensed" something (so... Luke has had a bad feeling about the boy) so he "looked inside" (so Luke then got an even badder feeling about the boy) and this feeling made Luke conclusively believe that an evil dude had "turned his heart." This feeling made Luke grab his lightsaber and raise it over the sleeping boy (oh, and this boy is Leia and Han's son btw.)
Luke then says to himself that based on his bad feeling about this boy he envisions "destruction and pain" would come. So he looks down at his saber, now held over the boy's sleeping body, clearly forming a decision to use it to kill the boy. Solely based on a feeling of "what he would become." (again, we haven't seen ANYTHING of their interactions, so have NO context for any of this whatsoever.)
Luke then says "for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it" - "stop it" clearly meaning to kill the boy. Luke ignites his saber and raises it to murder the boy in his sleep.
If you guys feel like Luke didn't go there with some notion of killing his boy student in the middle of the night, you are ****ing delusional. He went there as a "final check" to see if his intuition/feeling was correct. Once this hunch/feeling was confirmed (or worse) inside his mind by further feelings, he decided to follow through and kill him. Instant regret or not - THAT IS WHAT LUKE DID.
In conclusion, ROTJ Luke vs TLJ Luke:
A Luke who surrenders to his father with an open heart and does everything to avoid fighting him and bring him back, but loses his cool (nothing more than fighting more aggressively) for all of sixty seconds in order to win the fight BUT then does not kill his father in the immediate aftermath of this victory (and instantly switches right back to "normal Luke")........... is 1000% different to a Luke who spends weeks brooding over what he feels he "senses" - not based on actions, but simply subjective intuitions - about his boy student (Leia's son no less,) then goes to the boy's hut in the middle of the night to "confirm" these intuitions, then ignites his saber to murder the boy in his sleep.
ajp4mgs
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Oh I understand all the angles TLJ defenders play with this scene. Luke judges one man based on the actions of another and has no faith in himself as a teacher because he knows he is a failure. Even dumber.
So, Luke knows about Ben's darkness, STILL doesn't talk to him about it AT ANY POINT or try to reason with him, THEN stands over him plotting Ben's murder, THEN "changes his intentions" THEN completely gives up on him.
He didn't try to stop **** except when he contemplated murdering him. Had all the time in the world. So, this explanation now just makes Luke into an awful failed teacher.
Luke "failed" to the same extent that Obi-Wan "failed" with Anakin. It's like blaming a school teacher for a failing student who either wants no part of learning, or is just too stupid to keep up.
If you want to label Luke a failure, then fine. I can't prove to you that he wasn't. But by that metric, he was a failure as soon as TFA said that his nephew had turned on him and Luke had gone into exile.
It's the same measure by which you'd also have to label Obi-Wan a failure for Anakin turning on him, leading to his own exile. Or Yoda for that matter. Luke only "failed" in the same way as the greatest Jedi master prior to him.
Part of Jedi training is making students aware of the power of the dark side. That's how Luke would've talked to Ben about the dangers and consequences of letting yourself embrace the dark side. It obviously failed to sink in. Again, that "failure" was locked in by TFA.
Do you really think it would've made a difference if Luke had personalized his conversations with Ben about the dark side? And don't you think the extent of the need to do so was what Luke was trying to assess when he went into that hut? If he went in there just to kill Ben, he wouldn't be standing over him with arm outstretched and saber hilt on his belt trying to probe his nephew's thoughts.
And if we're going to believe that a Jedi is supposed to be virtuous, then probing a pupil's mind/thoughts is an invasive and unethical thing to do that should be saved as a last resort. My view of Luke suggests to me that he only did it as a last resort, and only because he sensed the dangerous darkness in a more indirect and non-invasive way earlier.
1.) Luke's first reaction after seeing how profoundly Ben's dark turn had gone was to ignite his lightsaber. But that wasn't his *only* reaction. He didn't go through with it. So don't you think it's fair to assume that Luke would've gone through with a non-violent approach to helping Ben if things didn't go horribly wrong mere seconds later?
2.) Because Luke's vision of his friends in need (during ESB) caused him to take action. The whole "future in motion" crap would've led to him simply standing by. For him, as for his father Anakin, visions of tragic circumstances were taken as more than just easily-dismissed guidance. Both Skywalkers had consistently accurate visions. Am I wrong?
I just did.
I disagree about RJ, but don't really care what someone else thinks of a filmmaker's aptitude.
ajp4mgs
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ajp4mgs
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I've never seen such evasive crap from people I respect on here.
In ROTJ, right up to the moment of Vader's "sister" comment (3/4 of way through duel), Luke has ZERO intention of killing Vader. Then, for a total of SIXTY SECONDS, the last minute of the duel, he is triggered.
The ONLY THINGS that happen in Luke's supposed one minute of "giving in to the dark side" are he fights better/with more power and he has an angry face (same face he has while chopping up dozens of Jabba's goons earlier, but no darkside there) not unlike the face of a boxer/athlete pushing their limit.
I mean does Rocky give in to hate and the darkside when he defeats Clubber Lang?
When Luke's sixty seconds ends and Vader is defeated, Luke INSTANTLY goes back to normal and importantly, doesn't kill Vader even when he now can, BEFORE Palps re-enters the picture. If Luke's a raging, darkside-possessed murderer, why doesn't he immediately kill Vader then?
How people conflate this into some garbage about Luke giving in to evil and having murder on his mind I have no idea. Regardless of what the filmmakers tried to signal, it isn't onscreen. I don't give a **** if this is the first you guys are hearing this heresy, but it's the truth.
I put in bold the central part of where I think the disconnect is. You're saying that Luke simply amped up his fighting. But, Luke wasn't fighting at all before that. He was avoiding Vader the whole time. The only reason they locked sabers in the first place is because Vader interrupted Luke's swing at Palpatine.
Luke WAS NOT FIGHTING his father, and went into that throne room with no intention of fighting his father, much less killing him. And *that* is why the Leia moment is important, and transformed the situation. Only from that point did Luke have violent intent. It resulted in a severed hand and a realization that "I am my father's son, and I'm going down the same path because of fear." Remember, *fear* is the path to the dark side. Fear of what would happen to Leia resulted in Luke feeling anger. Dark side path . . . cut off hand of a family member . . . rage . . . this is all happening to Luke as it had with his father. And that's when he collected himself.
Say what!? Luke is talking about stopping the future that he sees from becoming reality. As to the rest of the assertions you made about the TLJ scene, I've already gone into length today about what happened on screen, and how to interpret it with logical use of context. I'm tired of re-hashing it, and I know that doing so wouldn't change your mind one iota. So we just have to agree to disagree, unfortunately.
EDIT: Oh, I see now. You mean kill the boy to stop the future. Okay, gotcha. Sorry about that.
jye4ever
Broke and happy
Great point from ajp about Luke failing as good as his previous masters lol
Talibane how is that ROTJ island you are on lol
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Talibane how is that ROTJ island you are on lol
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If you want to ignore Luke's speech to Rey and say that she would have found a way anyways then there is not much I can talk to you about except for what was put on screen... A Girl ready to call it quits for good because of her fear.
Nothing leads me to think Leia put Han there as a mind ****... She reached out to him as a mother which kept him from killing Kylo. He felt his mothers presence as did Rey. Reys act of Kindness by healing him was another step towards the light.. His Vison of his Father by spirit or Memory was that of a fathers love and his regret of his actions which brought him fully to the light.
There is not much more I can say on this that others have not already said. I just find your interpretations to be wrong.
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I think Ajp summed it up perfectly. At this point I'll also have to agree to disagree with you on this one Talibane.
As for that TLJ scene, it's funny how we're presented with different points of view on the movie itself:
- The point of view from a defensive Luke
- The point of view from a Ben who felt betrayed
- The truth from Luke (which turned out to be in-between)
It's almost like people from all sides of the debate (we remember/understand the scenes of the same movie differently).
I've never seen such evasive crap from people I respect on here.
In ROTJ, right up to the moment of Vader's "sister" comment (3/4 of way through duel), Luke has ZERO intention of killing Vader. Then, for a total of SIXTY SECONDS, the last minute of the duel, he is triggered.
The ONLY THINGS that happen in Luke's supposed one minute of "giving in to the dark side" are he fights better/with more power and he has an angry face (same face he has while chopping up dozens of Jabba's goons earlier, but no darkside there) not unlike the face of a boxer/athlete pushing their limit.
I mean does Rocky give in to hate and the darkside when he defeats Clubber Lang?
When Luke's sixty seconds ends and Vader is defeated, Luke INSTANTLY goes back to normal and importantly, doesn't kill Vader even when he now can, BEFORE Palps re-enters the picture. If Luke's a raging, darkside-possessed murderer, why doesn't he immediately kill Vader then?
How people conflate this into some garbage about Luke giving in to evil and having murder on his mind I have no idea. Regardless of what the filmmakers tried to signal, it isn't onscreen. I don't give a **** if this is the first you guys are hearing this heresy, but it's the truth.
ajp basically answered where the disconnect it..
I find it so strange that you cant watch the film and see it all there on screen.
And in TLJ - I mean earnest posts a YT video with titled "Luke Tries To Kill Ben Solo" as proof... that Luke isn't trying to kill Ben Solo? I mean WTF?!
To clarify one more time, here's what happens in earnest's own video, the TLJ scene beat for beat:
In the middle of the night, Luke arrives in the hut of his sleeping BOY STUDENT apparently because he "sensed" something (so... Luke has had a bad feeling about the boy) so he "looked inside" (so Luke then got an even badder feeling about the boy) and this feeling made Luke conclusively believe that an evil dude had "turned his heart." This feeling made Luke grab his lightsaber and raise it over the sleeping boy (oh, and this boy is Leia and Han's son btw.)
Luke then says to himself that based on his bad feeling about this boy he envisions "destruction and pain" would come. So he looks down at his saber, now held over the boy's sleeping body, clearly forming a decision to use it to kill the boy. Solely based on a feeling of "what he would become." (again, we haven't seen ANYTHING of their interactions, so have NO context for any of this whatsoever.)
Luke then says "for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it" - "stop it" clearly meaning to kill the boy. Luke ignites his saber and raises it to murder the boy in his sleep.
If you guys feel like Luke didn't go there with some notion of killing his boy student in the middle of the night, you are ****ing delusional. He went there as a "final check" to see if his intuition/feeling was correct. Once this hunch/feeling was confirmed (or worse) inside his mind by further feelings, he decided to follow through and kill him. Instant regret or not - THAT IS WHAT LUKE DID.
The Brief moment off Pure instinct is not really Thinking... It is acting without thinking.. He did not go in the hut with the intent to kill Ben.. When he looked inside he saw what Ben had become or what Snoke / Palps wanted him to think he had become, this is when pure instinct kicked in a he ignites his saber..
After that I am not sure if you just stop watching the video after a certain point and fail to hear Luke say
Luke Skywalker : and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him.
So even quicker then his instincts his rational thought came in and took over... By then it was too late.
Also I would say that Since Kylo went and killed all the other Jedi Luke was teaching that Luke obviously had the right idea about where Ben was headed.
Its so weird.. I had many of the same issues that people had wit Han in TFA.. But I did not have one issue with how Luke was portrayed.
I think some of it was his performance. I thought MH was great... So perhaps he sold me on it.
So even quicker then his instincts his rational thought came in and took over... By then it was too late.
Also I would say that Since Kylo went and killed all the other Jedi Luke was teaching that Luke obviously had the right idea about where Ben was headed.
Its so weird.. I had many of the same issues that people had wit Han in TFA.. But I did not have one issue with how Luke was portrayed.
I think some of it was his performance. I thought MH was great... So perhaps he sold me on it.
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