Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[The Buffinator]

Watched ANH on 4K blu ray finally... Boy it looks great. I hate most of the SE stuff (I do like updated Death Star battle stuff though) but man the picture and sound almost make up for Han shooting first..

But what a perfect film. This has always been my fav SW film. Empire is the better movie but I just enjoy everything about this film and its just an easier watch then Empire.

For the record... Somehow Mclunky makes Han shooting first a little more bearable also.. I think its cause I am laughing so hard at the stupidity of it that I miss who shoots first ​

I totally agree. George has made the whole thing so genuinely comical that I also was too busy laughing to care, lol.

When I watch the new SE's I feel like I'm being torn apart. Because I now fully recognize that if I *don't* watch the SE's then I'm watching an inferior version for 90% of the films' run time just to avoid the annoying 10% (or less) that got updated. When I do the math that way it seems silly to forsake the SE's but man the 10% that is lame is just so jarring.

Before these new 4K discs it was easy to rationalize that the *entire* SE's were tainted because of the bad blue tint throughout but now even that is gone with the most recent color corrections.

And yet some people around here think the ST is invalidated because this same guy's outline wasn't explicitly followed. It pains me to say it, but it was clear that he'd lost it years ago....

 

[Khev]

And yet some people around here think the ST is invalidated because this same guy's outline wasn't explicitly followed. It pains me to say it, but it was clear that he'd lost it years ago....

Sad but true. I'm picturing George sitting at the table with Iger and Kennedy as they close the deal and George slides over the new version of ANH along with his ST treatment. "Here's the new Maclunkey ANH and here's the Maclunkey trilogy..." *Iger and Kennedy look on in horror*

 

[ajp4mgs]

Watched ANH on 4K blu ray finally... Boy it looks great. I hate most of the SE stuff (I do like updated Death Star battle stuff though) but man the picture and sound almost make up for Han shooting first..

But what a perfect film. This has always been my fav SW film. Empire is the better movie but I just enjoy everything about this film and its just an easier watch then Empire.

That sums it up perfectly for me as well. ANH will always be my fav too. I love how raw and pure that movie is. It's why George was justifiably nervous right until opening day because he had no clue if his weird little serial-inspired space fantasy experiment would bomb or not. So much authenticity in ANH. Never gonna be beat.

Jedi.... I hate the new song at Jabba's and the worst of all the additions.. Worse then Han shooting first IMO... Vader saying No when he picks up the Emperor to save Luke.

Yep; totally agree here too. The Jedi Rocks song at Jabba's was an awful change, but at least you can understand how puppet limitations would've kept that version from being in the theatrical release if it was actually closer to GL's true original intent. But other than making sure both trilogies have a cringe moment of Vader saying "NO!" there's just no excuse for adding that to the Emperor death scene in ROTJ. Just horrible. Drives me nuts every time, and more than any other change.

 

[ajp4mgs]

And yet some people around here think the ST is invalidated because this same guy's outline wasn't explicitly followed. It pains me to say it, but it was clear that he'd lost it years ago....

Well, if you think George's outline would be bat**** crazy (and it very well might be ), you should be just as eager to have Disney publish or leak it as those delusional fans (like me).

Without having read it, though, one thing I can virtually guarantee is that his outline would have a clearer thematic tie-in to the central Skywalker story. Here's how I look at the saga:

The PT: A bright light is discovered in the galaxy in the form of a young Skywalker, but an equally powerful darkness snuffs it out and tears the promising Skywalker family apart.

The OT: The family lives on (albeit scattered and desperate) and they inherit enough of the father's light to not only redeem him, but also save the galaxy from the evil that had ruined everything.

But what was the Skywalker family/legacy connection, and thematic takeaway, at the conclusion of the non-Lucas ST? I'm not saying there isn't one; I'm just saying that I'd bet the Lucas version would offer a less hazy, and much more clearly-connected, tie-in takeaway to unify a central theme of the trilogies. I might also be willing to bet that the three generations of Skywalkers would've been brought together to drive it home. I hope we find out for sure some day.

 

[The Buffinator]

Well, if you think George's outline would be bat**** crazy (and it very well might be ), you should be just as eager to have Disney publish or leak it as those delusional fans (like me).

Without having read it, though, one thing I can virtually guarantee is that his outline would have a clearer thematic tie-in to the central Skywalker story. Here's how I look at the saga:

The PT: A bright light is discovered in the galaxy in the form of a young Skywalker, but an equally powerful darkness snuffs it out and tears the promising Skywalker family apart.

The OT: The family lives on (albeit scattered and desperate) and they inherit enough of the father's light to not only redeem him, but also save the galaxy from the evil that had ruined everything.

But what was the Skywalker family/legacy connection, and thematic takeaway, at the conclusion of the non-Lucas ST? I'm not saying there isn't one; I'm just saying that I'd bet the Lucas version would offer a less hazy, and much more clearly-connected, tie-in takeaway to unify a central theme of the trilogies. I might also be willing to bet that the three generations of Skywalkers would've been brought together to drive it home. I hope we find out for sure some day.

It's all speculation at this point - maybe it would have been a better story, maybe not. I do find it odd that you're implicitly criticizing the ST for not having "a clearer thematic tie-in to the central Skywalker story". Unless you're complaining about Rey not having Skywalker blood, I don't think the tie-in could be more blatant. Now I'll be the first to admit that it veered a bit off-course with RJ at the helm for TLJ (and as a result the narrative isn't as cohesive as it could have been), but IMO JJ came back and stuck the landing with TROS. I know GL supposedly feels "betrayed" by the direction they went in, but have you considered that maybe he's really P.O.'d that HE didn't think of the Force Dyad story?

 

[ajp4mgs]

It's all speculation at this point - maybe it would have been a better story, maybe not. I do find it odd that you're implicitly criticizing the ST for not having "a clearer thematic tie-in to the central Skywalker story". Unless you're complaining about Rey not having Skywalker blood, I don't think the tie-in could be more blatant. Now I'll be the first to admit that it veered a bit off-course with RJ at the helm for TLJ (and as a result the narrative isn't as cohesive as it could have been), but IMO JJ came back and stuck the landing with TROS.

We have a 180-degree difference in how we perceive the direction the ST took. Your perspective is definitely the enviable one, for sure. And I'm probably just not observant enough to have appreciated the tie-in to the central Skywalker story that you consider to be so blatant. That's on me, but it's where I'm at.

Rey not having Skywalker blood is indeed a factor (this being the *Skywalker* Saga, after all), but it's far more than the simplicity of that. The first two trilogies were about the dark (and easier) path being a temptation for the mighty Skywalkers. The father gave in to the temptation, but the son (and daughter) resisted it and showed the father the path he should've taken.

The saga was about offspring redeeming the choices of the father. The next generation in a family fighting to make things better, and thus building/saving the family legacy, became a central takeaway. The third generation of Skywalkers was Ben. But his redemption was a repeat of Vader's, not an *extension* of the story. And Ben's redemption was virtually inconsequential, as he was merely a tool for re-energizing the Palpatine threat, and then reviving Rey.

From my perspective, by making Rey a Palpatine, the saga introduced a second family dynamic that moved the Skywalker focus into the background. Ben, and his role as the third generation in this central family drama, was merely ancillary to Rey overcoming her own *separate* dark lineage and ending the Sith. The Skywalker family drama/lineage should never be ancillary in this saga, IMO.

I know GL supposedly feels "betrayed" by the direction they went in, but have you considered that maybe he's really P.O.'d that HE didn't think of the Force Dyad story?

Nope. I'm guessing his thoughts were along the lines of: "Say what!?" A Skywalker and a Palpatine, born 10 years apart, formed some kind of super-powerful bond that was never hinted at in any other film. I honestly don't think GL regrets not having come up with that as a plot device to resolve the saga. Just strictly my opinion, though.

I know these discussions are circular and annoyingly redundant, so I'll try to refrain from raising this issue again, but it's kind of a big deal considering the 9-part (or 6-part) saga has a definite origin and attachment to one central creator. Making them all connected with a throughline should be considered a necessity. You probably feel that was achieved, and I obviously don't. Oh well.

 

[The Buffinator]

The saga was about offspring redeeming the choices of the father. The next generation in a family fighting to make things better, and thus building/saving the family legacy, became a central takeaway. The third generation of Skywalkers was Ben. But his redemption was a repeat of Vader's, not an *extension* of the story. And Ben's redemption was virtually inconsequential, as he was merely a tool for re-energizing the Palpatine threat, and then reviving Rey.

From my perspective, by making Rey a Palpatine, the saga introduced a second family dynamic that moved the Skywalker focus into the background. Ben, and his role as the third generation in this central family drama, was merely ancillary to Rey overcoming her own *separate* dark lineage and ending the Sith. The Skywalker family drama/lineage should never be ancillary in this saga, IMO.

I guess I didn't see the Skywalker line as ancillary, as it was only through Luke and Leia's sacrifices that Ben was ultimately redeemed, and in turn Rey succeeded only through her connection to Ben and survived due to Ben's ultimate sacrifice. I'm not saying it was perfect, but it worked for me.

Nope. I'm guessing his thoughts were along the lines of: "Say what!?" A Skywalker and a Palpatine, born 10 years apart, formed some kind of super-powerful bond that was never hinted at in any other film. I honestly don't think GL regrets not having come up with that as a plot device to resolve the saga. Just strictly my opinion, though.

Yeah, you're probably right. He'd never admit that, even to himself.

I know these discussions are circular and annoyingly redundant, so I'll try to refrain from raising this issue again, but it's kind of a big deal considering the 9-part (or 6-part) saga has a definite origin and attachment to one central creator. Making them all connected with a throughline should be considered a necessity. You probably feel that was achieved, and I obviously don't. Oh well.

IMO JJ did an admirable job of maintaining the Skywalker connection while also giving us new and unexpected (you may say unwanted) things. I also (grudgingly) give RJ some credit for this as well, as the bridging of Kylo's & Rey's minds and Luke's Force projecting came under his watch. But then he also killed Luke and gave us Canto Bight, so that's where the credit ends.

 

[TheDucky]

I've stated repeatedly here about the lack of demand and interest in the ST. Was right. Can't deny it anymore.

https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/04/23/toy-executive-confirms-lack-of-demand-for-disneys-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-products/

Toy Executive Confirms Lack Of Demand For Disney?s Star Wars Sequel Trilogy Products

Been saying it since TFA.

He added, ?I will say from what we have seen, the sales on the products from 7 & 8 were not too strong.?

Because people don't like them.

He adds, ?The overall demand for busts and SW products is not what it was 10 or even 5 years ago.?

Because Disney killed it.

? It?s not just a GG issue either. The brand is VERY strong with The Mandalorian & The Clone Wars and more new content to come, but you all know what the production runs on collector products were in the past compared to now.?

Funny how good Star Wars, Disney in name only, still sells...

Terceira then bluntly states he?s not seeing the demand from fans for the sequel trilogy characters.

?We just, as of yet, have not seen enough fans that would want to buy a bust have that personal affection for some of those new characters that makes sense to justify going to production, but for sure we?re watching it and perhaps as more time passes, fans affection for those characters will grow.?

Because the ST wasn't good.

The lack of demand for Disney?s Star Wars sequel trilogy toys shouldn?t come as a surprise. Audiences didn?t like the films and for good reason, given how the films actively set out to break down and destroy the iconic characters of the original trilogy as well as undo the entire mythos of the Force.

In fact Star Wars merchandise sales have been in decline since 2016. And it?s not just merchandise sales, the entire franchise has been in decline according to Jedi Temple Archive:

?Star Wars merchandise sales have been declining ever since October 2016 (remember that Disney?s fiscal year ends in September). But not only merchandise seems to be affected, since Star Wars book sales and comic book sales are also down. So Star Wars as a whole seems to be in decline at the moment."

Because Disney Star Wars is bad.

He notes that all of the sequel trilogy figures look alike. He explains, ?Rey wears the same thing in every movie. Even in the snow scene she?s in the same thing. Wherever she?s piloting she?s in the same thing. Everything is the same.?

In comparison the original trilogy had Leia in multiple outfits from her Slave Leia look to her Hoth gear. He explains, ?I could get her in different forms to put her in different situations where she would rule, and where she would run, where she would do her thing.?

Couldn't have said it better. No diversity in costumes. Boring. Always the same.

 

[ironwez20]

......... but muh OT call backs!

 

[Khev]

Here is Khev, JAWS and I having to give up the clean matte lines in ESB and ROTJ...

It's all speculation at this point - maybe it would have been a better story, maybe not. I do find it odd that you're implicitly criticizing the ST for not having "a clearer thematic tie-in to the central Skywalker story". Unless you're complaining about Rey not having Skywalker blood, I don't think the tie-in could be more blatant.

Exactly. It's the "Skywalker Saga" not "the Skywalker Blood Saga" or the "Skywalker DNA Saga." Rey may have Palpatine blood but the Saga ends with her *literally* a Skywalker. If Rey doesn't "count" then I can just as easily say that Ben doesn't count either because he's a "Solo" but that would be silly and nothing more than me adding a completely arbitrary level of granularity to the so called rules of what is and isn't legitimate.

Marrying into the Skywalker family or being adopted into the Skywalker family still puts you in the family. And the ST is all about characters that are in the family with the focus of course being the Dyad with Ben having the blood but not the name and Rey ending with the name but not the blood. A nice little circle there.

I know GL supposedly feels "betrayed" by the direction they went in, but have you considered that maybe he's really P.O.'d that HE didn't think of the Force Dyad story?

George is clearly *very* bitter about how his ideas were translated to the screen and I don't think for one second that he's capable of saying "wow, they made some choices that I didn't agree with but the end result is as good if not better than what I would have done." No way, whether he thinks that or would ever admit to himself that he thinks that doesn't matter because he's already shown that he isn't above trying to rally the troops against Disney's LFL by trying to "taint" their trilogy by openly complaining about it.

The third generation of Skywalkers was Ben.

And Rey.

But his redemption was a repeat of Vader's, not an *extension* of the story. And Ben's redemption was virtually inconsequential, as he was merely a tool for re-energizing the Palpatine threat, and then reviving Rey.

Actually no. If Ben didn't turn and go to Exegol Empress Palpatine would have taken the throne and all would have been lost. His turn was *literally more crucial to the fate of the galaxy than Vader's.* If Ben stayed evil then the Sith would have reigned unchallenged possibly forevermore. If Vader stayed evil then everyone would have still gotten blown up a few minutes later by Lando and Wedge.

 

[jye4ever]

Snoke TLJ dialogue takes on new meaning.

Little does Palpatine know that his arrogance got the best of him because she literally gave them Skywalker like he requested by accepting the responsibilities and carrying his legacy forward.


Snoke to Rey:

Darkness rises and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise.

Skywalker...(laughs) I assumed, wrongly.

Now you will give me Skywalker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ajp4mgs]

And Rey.

But what gets ignored too often is that Rey had parents who loved her enough to *die for her!* So she had a family of her own to be quite proud of. Just because she spurned their memory and calls herself a Skywalker doesn't make her an actual Skywalker. She barely knew Luke, and didn't seem to even need Leia's tutelage. To me, it's a strained connection without proper foundation.

Actually no. If Ben didn't turn and go to Exegol Empress Palpatine would have taken the throne and all would have been lost. His turn was *literally more crucial to the fate of the galaxy than Vader's.* If Ben stayed evil then the Sith would have reigned unchallenged possibly forevermore.

Not necessarily. Maybe you're underestimating Rey. What if Palpatine tells Rey that he needs her to strike him down to inherit his evil throne, and after having heard his exact plan, Rey just kills herself instead?

Palpatine would then be SOL because he's still stuck in his crappy clone body, and without a redeemed Ben Solo to siphon "life force" from the magic Dyad to rejuvenate himself.

So, Lando would still gather a gazillion ships (somehow) and take down Palpatine's fleet. No Dyad-infused Palpatine using miles-wide lightning to disable Lando's ships. Add a few well-placed shots into that throne room. The end.

If Vader stayed evil then everyone would have still gotten blown up a few minutes later by Lando and Wedge.

Vader's redemption was relevant no matter what because he saved his son. If Vader stayed evil, Luke dies with the Death Star and never gets that brief glimpse of a loving father who gave his life to save him. The emotional resonance of that redemption is more valuable to the audience (after three movies) than the logistics of what it accomplished in terms of the in-story galactic war.

By contrast, a redeemed Ben came by way of his mother having to die to make it happen. And then his redeemed self did nothing more than beat the KOR and allow Palpatine to rejuvenate himself. Rey accomplished the true victory without him (while he was climbing out of a pit). Yes, his act to revive Rey has emotional resonance because of the self sacrifice. But that came after the fact; the defeat of evil had already been fully accomplished by Rey.

Did Kylo saving Rey allow her to start a new Jedi Order? Yes. But then again, Ben Solo could've done that himself anyway.

 

[aussiebottt]

It's funny how the white knights explain Rey's power by claiming "But she's a Palpatine!" and now all of a sudden she's a Skywalker?! Make up your minds.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

[emoji38] [emoji38]



Exactly. It's the "Skywalker Saga" not "the Skywalker Blood Saga" or the "Skywalker DNA Saga." Rey may have Palpatine blood but the Saga ends with her *literally* a Skywalker. If Rey doesn't "count" then I can just as easily say that Ben doesn't count either because he's a "Solo" but that would be silly and nothing more than me adding a completely arbitrary level of granularity to the so called rules of what is and isn't legitimate.

Marrying into the Skywalker family or being adopted into the Skywalker family still puts you in the family. And the ST is all about characters that are in the family with the focus of course being the Dyad with Ben having the blood but not the name and Rey ending with the name but not the blood. A nice little circle there.

Sorry Khev this is complete and utter nonsense and you should know better. Just because I say I'm a New England Kennedy does not make it so.

 

[Khev]

Snoke TLJ dialogue takes on new meaning.

Little does Palpatine know that his arrogance got the best of him because she literally gave them Skywalker like he requested by accepting the responsibilities and carrying his legacy forward.


Snoke to Rey:

Darkness rises and light to meet it. I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise.

Skywalker...(laughs) I assumed, wrongly.

Now you will give me Skywalker.

Yep and I love how the supposed visions that Snoke created to dupe Rey and Kylo into thinking the other would turn ended up coming exactly true.

But what gets ignored too often is that Rey had parents who loved her enough to *die for her!* So she had a family of her own to be quite proud of. Just because she spurned their memory and calls herself a Skywalker doesn't make her an actual Skywalker.

Yes her biological parents loved her. Doesn't change the fact that she's still a Skywalker at the end. Not even just in name since the very "Force energy" that gives life to her bones is that which came from a biological descendant of Anakin himself.

Not necessarily. Maybe you're underestimating Rey. What if Palpatine tells Rey that he needs her to strike him down to inherit his evil throne, and after having heard his exact plan, Rey just kills herself instead?

"What if?" There's no "what if" since he *did* tell her his exact plan and after hearing it she did *not* kill herself so your scenario is moot. Killing herself would have doomed all the rebels to die in her mind which is exactly why she didn't go that route.

would then be SOL because he's still stuck in his crappy clone body, and without a redeemed Ben Solo to siphon "life force" from the magic Dyad to rejuvenate himself.

So, Lando would still gather a gazillion ships (somehow) and take down Palpatine's fleet. No Dyad-infused Palpatine using miles-wide lightning to disable Lando's ships. Add a few well-placed shots into that throne room. The end.

No, without Ben turning Lando would not have rallied the galaxy. If Ben stayed evil then he would have assumedly killed Rey on the DS wreckage, got in his Interceptor and obliterated the downed Falcon. Without Rey no one finds their way to Exegol. Which wouldn't have mattered since there would have been no Falcon to rally the galaxy anyway, no Poe to lead the first wave, no Finn blowing up the navigation tower, nothing. Everything crumbles if Ben doesn't turn and the Sith Flame burns forevermore.

Vader's redemption was relevant no matter what because he saved his son. If Vader stayed evil, Luke dies with the Death Star and never gets that brief glimpse of a loving father who gave his life to save him. The emotional resonance of that redemption is more valuable to the audience (after three movies) than the logistics of what it accomplished in terms of the in-story galactic war.

By contrast, a redeemed Ben came by way of his mother having to die to make it happen. And then his redeemed self did nothing more than beat the KOR and allow Palpatine to rejuvenate himself. Rey accomplished the true victory without him (while he was climbing out of a pit). Yes, his act to revive Rey has emotional resonance because of the self sacrifice. But that came after the fact; the defeat of evil had already been fully accomplished by Rey.

And again I find that assessment to be absolutely incorrect.

 

[Khev]

Sorry Khev this is complete and utter nonsense and you should know better. Just because I say I'm a New England Kennedy does not make it so.

No but if a New England Kennedy adopts you into the family and your last name is legally changed then that does make it so. That's essentially what we saw in the final scene of TROS with Rey making the declaration while Luke and Leia's spirits manifest right in front of her to give their blessings.

Quit trying to apply real world legalities to Star Wars. What made Anakin "Darth Vader?" Palpatine saying "your name is Vader now." Done. He didn't say "You shall be henceforth known as Darth...Vader. Well once you fill out some paperwork of course, update your Social Security Card, etc., but we can take care of such formalities later. For now, you must wipe out the Jedi in the temple..."

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

No but if a New England Kennedy adopts you into the family and your last name is legally changed then that does make it so. That's essentially what we saw in the final scene of TROS with Rey making the declaration while Luke and Leia's spirits manifest right in front of her to give their blessings.

So I went back and YouTubed the scene. I'm not sure what you are watching but what I saw was Rey force bury two lightsabers into the Tattooine sand, look over and see the smiling ghosts of Luke and Leia(were their force ghosts really there, who knows at this point?) and then declare herself as Rey Skywalker to a vagrant stranger. I know JJ and now you desperately want to wrap a pretty bow on all this nonsense but I would love to see Rey try to explain the legitimacy of this to the officials at the Tattooine DMV or the officers at her bank.

 

[aussiebottt]

Yes her biological parents loved her. Doesn't change the fact that she's still a Skywalker at the end. Not even just in name since the very "Force energy" that gives life to her bones is that which came from a biological descendant of Anakin himself.

And again I find that assessment to be absolutely incorrect.

That's like saying that Ben turned into a Palpatine after Rey healed him because he has the "Force energy" from a biological descendant of Palpatine.

 

[Khev]

"Quit trying to apply real world legalities to Star Wars.."

I would love to see Rey try to explain the legitimacy of this to the officials at the Tattooine DMV or the officers at her bank.

And there you go again. If you don't "get" that Star Wars has a different set of rules than your local Department of Motor Vehicles then I simply can't help you.

 

[aussiebottt]

And there you go again. If you don't "get" that Star Wars has a different set of rules than your local Department of Motor Vehicles then I simply can't help you.

So using that argument from now on it's Ben Palpatine.