Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[TheDucky]

I will say this.. I don't really view it as the Skywalker Saga. Episode 1-6 is but I think the ST feels more like an extended Epilogue. Its not about Luke and Leia fully. Its about Rey. Which is fine IMO.

When these films were first announced I always thought that the Original cast would be in TFA and then be sidelined after that with little to no appearances in the next two films.

The biggest grievance seems to be the fact that after ROTJ everything was not happily ever after for our hero's. Well to make an Episode 7-9 with the original cast then there was no way that life was going to be happily ever after.

I have said it before.. IMO the only way to explain the rise of another "Empire" is to make the hero's life tragic. Otherwise what the hell were they all doing?

Ben Solo was the perfect thing to break up our hero's and allow for another Empire to rise.

The only alternative was to now have the OT cast in it at all.. I might have been cool with that also.

There was already a way.

The Yuuzhan Vong. Or Thrawn. Or Rise of a Sith Army.

There were ways to go with it where we do get the happy ending of a restored Republic and Jedi Order, a killed Palpatine, but a new threat arises.

There didn?t need to be another Empire, let alone the only threat as the Empire, ST was a rehash of the OT but with a girl having to win Star Wars because KK.

Y?all are lying to yourselves or in denial if you don?t think a Grand Master Luke, married to Mara Jade with kids, and a happy Leia/Han with kids, restored Jedi Order, all facing a galaxy wide threat together, as THE SKYWALKER FAMILY, wouldn?t have been 100x better than what we got.

Can still have the fall of Luke in that. Can still have the downfall of Ben. Can still have Rey or Luke?s son be the hero in the end.

You literally could have pleased everybody, but they didn?t.

It was a **** agenda driven story from the start.

Edit: I could have written a better trilogy on the toilet in 20 minutes than they did in 2 years with a hoard of writers. Damn disgrace.

 

[Khev]

Pretty much correct. Kylo's redemption had purpose in closing the loop between he and his parents. But as far as having any practical value in defeating Palpatine? No; that was all Rey, IMO.

Ben's presence did nothing more than give Palps a chance to suck the life out of the Dyad and become stronger. Had he not been there, Rey would've faced off against a more feeble version of Palpatine (in a weakened clone body). You say she would've killed Palps and fought for control of her soul in order to save the Resistance.

Correct, and according to her visions she would have failed not to mention the fact that she would have literally succumbed to the same temptation as Anakin and that is choosing to comply with the Emperor in order to save someone else, or in Rey's case save many others. Still the same playbook and we can easily deduce that Palpatine was lying about her being able to save her friends just like he was lying about Anakin being able to save Padme.

No double standard. Here's why: Anakin's redemption *WAS* the focus of the narrative!! How do you not understand the difference, Khev?

Nobody in the galaxy cares what George's revised "focus of the narrative is." So once again to repeat my initial comment that you've been arguing against: "If Ben didn't turn and go to Exegol Empress Palpatine would have taken the throne and all would have been lost. His turn was *literally more crucial to the fate of the galaxy than Vader's.*"

Once again, "fate of the galaxy." The galaxy doesn't care whether one random guy reconciles with his family or not. I'm talking about the size of the impact with regard to the fate of the galaxy of Anakin's redemption vs. Ben Solo's. And Ben Solo turning from the Dark Side screwed over Palpatine's plans in a way that tangibly affected every living being in the galaxy much moreso than Anakin's did. Not because Ben's turn was individually more heroic, but rather the subpar writing of ROTJ made Anakin's heroism moot to all but him and Luke due to the fact that George had Han take the down the shields and Lando blow up the Death Star. So the damage was going to be done to the Empire whether Anakin turned or not.

Ben by contrast *minimally* prevented Palpatine from getting a new body (since Rey had agreed to the ritual) which would definitely have made things worse for the Resistance and that's allowing for him to have not simply killed Rey outright before she even got to Exegol.

Or just take him as a straight villain compared to Vader. Let's say for the sake of discussion that redemption wasn't even on the table. Stopping Kylo in some way shape or form was the only way to defeat Palpatine because Kylo offered the only path to Exegol. Stopping OT Vader? Not really as critical to winning the war because Palps could still be stopped militarily without defeating or redeeming Vader. It doesn't mean anyone has to like Kylo or claim that he's as memorable as Vader or anything but my point stands that as both a villain and a redeemed hero he played a more integral role in the fate of the galaxy than OT Vader.

What has come to be known as the *Skywalker* Saga is defined by Vader's turn to the dark, and then his return to the light. To save his family!

Well not really. Since the "Skywalker Saga" is a Disney moniker and obviously Anakin isn't the main focus anymore. Which is a commendable correction IMO. But that's neither here nor there since the name of the Saga and who the IP holder claims is the main character has nothing to do with my prior comments about Kylo's role in turning the tide.

I'm blown away that you can't tell the difference between the narrative value of Vader/Anakin turning in ROTJ and Kylo/Ben turning in TROS. Even if we just break it down to practical value, Vader killing the Emperor (and dying in the process) is an actual act of heroism that not only kills the bad guy, but also provides resolution to Luke's journey. That was the point of the OT: Luke's journey ended with becoming a Jedi and having his father redeemed. That's why we got the cheesy ghost scene at the end of ROTJ.

Yes I'm aware.

The ST, on the other hand, became all about Rey's journey,

Rey's journey and Kylo's redemption. Just like the OT was about Luke's journey and Anakin's redemption.

If that's how you see it, fine. But how does that have any effect at all on how Ben's redemption influenced the narrative? That's the topic that started this back and forth.

No that was not the topic that started the back and forth. The topic was how Ben's redemption influenced the galactic conflict. I never said that the galactic conflict overshadowed every other narrative element, that's something that you assumed I said.

What matters most is the central issue: did Ben's redemption serve to tie the ST into the broader saga narrative about the Skywalker family?

You're free to make that the central issue but it was not at all what I was even addressing. However it is an interesting (albeit totally separate) topic to discuss so I'm game.

Was it worth undoing Anakin's role in Palpatine's death to make Rey's battle with her grandfather the climactic takeaway, rather than have Kylo/Ben be the central change-maker (since he was the true Skywalker) with Luke's influence? Did the resolution to Kylo's arc have the same prominence as Rey's arc? No, I don't even think it's close. And that's what bothers me. I wish this ST ended with a stronger connection to Luke, Leia, Anakin, and Ben.

Here's a big reason why I like Rey being the last person standing against Palpatine instead of Ben: It adds something fresh to the Saga. I never expected or even wanted the PT to just be this big "rhyme" with the OT where George just basically repeats all the same beats as the OT. I don't even like that he made so much of ROTJ a carbon copy of ANH. Then of course we have the ST continuing the "rhymes" even further and here we are.

So I never needed LFL to go "okay a Skywalker defeated the bad guy in the OT so that's what we have to do again!" I love that we have these similarities but then the narrative goes sideways (some would say off the rails) or in a completely different direction than you'd expect. I thought that was something that you liked about TLJ but maybe not anymore. I can definitely relate to going back and forth on that one. But to this day I freaking *love* how the Snoke throne room seemed like it was gonna be similar to the ROTJ throne room and then you've got what you think is the main bad guy dying halfway through the trilogy and the hero and villain teaming up and not in a "redeemed villain goes out in a blaze of glory with one act of heroism" kind of way either.

And I love how the twist of the TROS is that Rey *isn't* yet another Skywalker facing Palpatine so again we get something new (Palpatine facing his own insolent heir, awesome!) but then they still looped it back to her becoming an honorary Skywalker and giving the satisfaction of ending with that expectation fulfilled. Well for some of us obviously. That's basically what I want out of Star Wars. Keep me on my toes, even surprise me, but don't go so far off the rails that it doesn't end as a satisfying "Star Wars" story.

But I can't stress enough how I really don't care about George's "revised Saga of the Chosen One." I just don't. I would have even been okay with Rey saying "Rey Solo" or "Rey Palpatine" at the end. Both would have worked given her arc and she easily could have taken on the name of the guy who saved her or shown that she "isn't afraid of who she is" by just sticking with Palpatine. Though it'd be like someone today proudly saying "I'm so and so Hitler" so I get why she didn't, lol. Also "Solo" would have felt a little out of the blue to audiences even you could make a case for why she would have said that over Skywalker. My point is none of the names had to be Skywalker and none of them would have been a dealbreaker. Or even just not having that lady oddly show up at all and simply show Rey burying the sabers, nodding at Luke and Leia and looking to the suns with no dialogue at all. Honestly, whatever would have been fine though I'm definitely partial to the way it played out when all is said and done.

Because to me Star Wars is still just a serialized adventure tale about family conflict set against the backdrop of galactic war which is all George *originally* set out to do way back when. And the ST gave us that in spades.

If this chink in the armor was so obvious, why didn't you see it after TLJ? You were very locked into the idea that Kylo was irreedemable after TLJ. If the splitting of the soul, and the monster facade, was the clear takeaway leading up to TROS, why were you arguing it from the other side?

I didn't mind him being conflicted but I did *not* want that conflict to him being redeemed so yes you are correct. I had my little fixation about wanting Rey to put on the Vader mask and stab him like Jason Voorhees and there was just no allowance for that scenario to play out where Voorhees is redeemed, lol. But TROS proved me wrong, so very wrong.

Believe it or not, you even refuted the idea that Kylo's hesitation to pull the trigger on the Raddus bridge meant that his conflict was building to redemption. I can find those posts for you if you want. But now you're saying that the opposite was obvious all along?

If you can find those posts sure, go ahead (though good luck with this site's crappy Search function.) They'd probably be a fun read. I may very well have changed my perspective on that scene as I did on several aspects of TLJ a number of times.

 

[Khev]

I could be wrong but I think the argument about this has gone off the tracks. I think the original point was that if Vader was not redeemed that Luke would have died but the Death Star still would have been blown up thus killing Vader and the Emperor.

Had Kylo never turned then he may have killed Rey or even if Rey won then she would have gone with the Emperors plan to strike him down.

I don't think that the original argument was about the importance of Vader's redemption and what it meant to the story.

Correct it was never a condition of the debate nor was giving Han to that bounty hunter.

 

[Khev]

I will say this.. I don't really view it as the Skywalker Saga. Episode 1-6 is but I think the ST feels more like an extended Epilogue. Its not about Luke and Leia fully. Its about Rey. Which is fine IMO.

Exactly. In many ways George painted the Saga into a corner with the way he wrapped up ROTJ so to continue past that pretty much guaranteed that it would always feel like a glorified epilogue. I won't even argue that the ST is *not* that. But it allowed me to see as close as they could get to what that "alternate ROTJ" where Han died would look like and what the alternate showdown between Luke and Leia against Palpatine might have looked like all while keeping continuity with the OT instead of rebooting it.

The made the most out of the hand they were dealt and I'll happily take the end result.

 

[TheDucky]

Exactly. In many ways George painted the Saga into a corner with the way he wrapped up ROTJ so to continue past that pretty much guaranteed that it would always feel like a glorified epilogue. I won't even argue that the ST is *not* that. But it allowed me to see as close as they could get to what that "alternate ROTJ" where Han died would look like and what the alternate showdown between Luke and Leia against Palpatine might have looked like all while keeping continuity with the OT instead of rebooting it.

The made the most out of the hand they were dealt and I'll happily take the end result.

Tell that to the 100 EU novels that had no problem navigating post ROTJ while giving new compelling stories.

They didn’t make the most out of it either. That is fairly clear based on the reception alone.

 

[Khev]

Tell that to the 100 EU novels

Okay. "Hey 100 EU Novels you're all just a glorified epilogue to the OT." See? Easy.

Whether or not you like the post-ROTJ EU is irrelevant because nothing about ROTJ itself actually suggested or promised that there would be "more to come." It wrapped up *everything* in such a way that whatever came next would inevitably feel like something tacked on, no matter how well the additional story would be told. Episodes 1-5 and 7 and 8 all ended with a clear indication that there was still more story to be told. But not ROTJ. And now not TROS.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Correct, and according to her visions she would have failed not to mention the fact that she would have literally succumbed to the same temptation as Anakin and that is choosing to comply with the Emperor in order to save someone else, or in Rey's case save many others. Still the same playbook and we can easily deduce that Palpatine was lying about her being able to save her friends just like he was lying about Anakin being able to save Padme.



Nobody in the galaxy cares what George's revised "focus of the narrative is." So once again to repeat my initial comment that you've been arguing against: "If Ben didn't turn and go to Exegol Empress Palpatine would have taken the throne and all would have been lost. His turn was *literally more crucial to the fate of the galaxy than Vader's.*"

Once again, "fate of the galaxy." The galaxy doesn't care whether one random guy reconciles with his family or not. I'm talking about the size of the impact with regard to the fate of the galaxy of Anakin's redemption vs. Ben Solo's. And Ben Solo turning from the Dark Side screwed over Palpatine's plans in a way that tangibly affected every living being in the galaxy much moreso than Anakin's did. Not because Ben's turn was individually more heroic, but rather the subpar writing of ROTJ made Anakin's heroism moot to all but him and Luke due to the fact that George had Han take the down the shields and Lando blow up the Death Star. So the damage was going to be done to the Empire whether Anakin turned or not.

Ben by contrast *minimally* prevented Palpatine from getting a new body (since Rey had agreed to the ritual) which would definitely have made things worse for the Resistance and that's allowing for him to have not simply killed Rey outright before she even got to Exegol.

Or just take him as a straight villain compared to Vader. Let's say for the sake of discussion that redemption wasn't even on the table. Stopping Kylo in some way shape or form was the only way to defeat Palpatine because Kylo offered the only path to Exegol. Stopping OT Vader? Not really as critical to winning the war because Palps could still be stopped militarily without defeating or redeeming Vader. It doesn't mean anyone has to like Kylo or claim that he's as memorable as Vader or anything but my point stands that as both a villain and a redeemed hero he played a more integral role in the fate of the galaxy than OT Vader.



Well not really. Since the "Skywalker Saga" is a Disney moniker and obviously Anakin isn't the main focus anymore. Which is a commendable correction IMO. But that's neither here nor there since the name of the Saga and who the IP holder claims is the main character has nothing to do with my prior comments about Kylo's role in turning the tide.



Yes I'm aware.



Rey's journey and Kylo's redemption. Just like the OT was about Luke's journey and Anakin's redemption.



No that was not the topic that started the back and forth. The topic was how Ben's redemption influenced the galactic conflict. I never said that the galactic conflict overshadowed every other narrative element, that's something that you assumed I said.



You're free to make that the central issue but it was not at all what I was even addressing. However it is an interesting (albeit totally separate) topic to discuss so I'm game.



Here's a big reason why I like Rey being the last person standing against Palpatine instead of Ben: It adds something fresh to the Saga. I never expected or even wanted the PT to just be this big "rhyme" with the OT where George just basically repeats all the same beats as the OT. I don't even like that he made so much of ROTJ a carbon copy of ANH. Then of course we have the ST continuing the "rhymes" even further and here we are.

So I never needed LFL to go "okay a Skywalker defeated the bad guy in the OT so that's what we have to do again!" I love that we have these similarities but then the narrative goes sideways (some would say off the rails) or in a completely different direction than you'd expect. I thought that was something that you liked about TLJ but maybe not anymore. I can definitely relate to going back and forth on that one. But to this day I freaking *love* how the Snoke throne room seemed like it was gonna be similar to the ROTJ throne room and then you've got what you think is the main bad guy dying halfway through the trilogy and the hero and villain teaming up and not in a "redeemed villain goes out in a blaze of glory with one act of heroism" kind of way either.

And I love how the twist of the TROS is that Rey *isn't* yet another Skywalker facing Palpatine so again we get something new (Palpatine facing his own insolent heir, awesome!) but then they still looped it back to her becoming an honorary Skywalker and giving the satisfaction of ending with that expectation fulfilled. Well for some of us obviously. That's basically what I want out of Star Wars. Keep me on my toes, even surprise me, but don't go so far off the rails that it doesn't end as a satisfying "Star Wars" story.

But I can't stress enough how I really don't care about George's "revised Saga of the Chosen One." I just don't. I would have even been okay with Rey saying "Rey Solo" or "Rey Palpatine" at the end. Both would have worked given her arc and she easily could have taken on the name of the guy who saved her or shown that she "isn't afraid of who she is" by just sticking with Palpatine. Though it'd be like someone today proudly saying "I'm so and so Hitler" so I get why she didn't, lol. Also "Solo" would have felt a little out of the blue to audiences even you could make a case for why she would have said that over Skywalker. My point is none of the names had to be Skywalker and none of them would have been a dealbreaker. Or even just not having that lady oddly show up at all and simply show Rey burying the sabers, nodding at Luke and Leia and looking to the suns with no dialogue at all. Honestly, whatever would have been fine though I'm definitely partial to the way it played out when all is said and done.

Because to me Star Wars is still just a serialized adventure tale about family conflict set against the backdrop of galactic war which is all George *originally* set out to do way back when. And the ST gave us that in spades.



I didn't mind him being conflicted but I did *not* want that conflict to him being redeemed so yes you are correct. I had my little fixation about wanting Rey to put on the Vader mask and stab him like Jason Voorhees and there was just no allowance for that scenario to play out where Voorhees is redeemed, lol. But TROS proved me wrong, so very wrong.



If you can find those posts sure, go ahead (though good luck with this site's crappy Search function.) They'd probably be a fun read. I may very well have changed my perspective on that scene as I did on several aspects of TLJ a number of times.

Most of your post circles back to contending that Kylo's redemption *did* influence the outcome, and that the rest of the discussion we've had is tangential. Okay. Then let me get right to the heart of the matter since you think I'm not doing a good job of that. If you want me to address any of the other tangential stuff, just let me know.

You say that Rey would've turned into Empress Palpatine without a redeemed Ben. Fine. Let's stipulate that'd be the case. To make this easy, I'll go through all that would happen in that scenario, and you can pick whichever assertion you think I'm wrong about if you want.

1.) In order for Rey to become Empress, she'd have to go to Exogol and strike Palpatine.

2.) She'd go there, not with the intention of joining him, but with the intention of defeating him.

3.) She'd still ping her coordinates to the Resistance in order to defeat the Final Order fleet.

4.) Lando would be putting together his fleet of who-knows-how-many ships regardless of Kylo's redemption.

5.) Rey strikes down Palps and becomes an evil Empress.

6.) Lando's giant army arrives and takes down the Final Order fleet.

7.) The rest of the galaxy rises up against FO occupation the exact same way.

8.) Empress Palpatine may survive, but is left with an overwhelmed fighting force, no empire to rule over, and the good guys will have won the war.

Conclusion: Good guys still win the galactic conflict. And in much the same way.

Question: How would Kylo staying evil have changed that outcome?

 

[jye4ever]

Okay. "Hey 100 EU Novels you're all just a glorified epilogue to the OT." See? Easy.

Whether or not you like the post-ROTJ EU is irrelevant because nothing about ROTJ itself actually suggested or promised that there would be "more to come." It wrapped up *everything* in such a way that whatever came next would inevitably feel like something tacked on, no matter how well the additional story would be told. Episodes 1-5 and 7 and 8 all ended with a clear indication that there was still more story to be told. But not ROTJ. And now not TROS.

I would say that 8 ended with really not much happening were they all just heading to the diner at the end lol

Maybe Palpatine should have been revealed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TheDucky]

I would say that 8 ended with really not much happening were they all just heading to the diner at the end lol

Maybe Palpatine should have been revealed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good idea. Tack on 5 minutes, explain how Palps was controlling Snoke all along... leads to a better TROS tie in at least. They should have done that at the end instead of shoving it in Fortnite. Probably would have made TLJ a little better.

They didn't know they were bringing Palpatine back at that point though.

 

[Khev]

Most of your post circles back to contending that Kylo's redemption *did* influence the outcome, and that the rest of the discussion we've had is tangential. Okay. Then let me get right to the heart of the matter since you think I'm not doing a good job of that. If you want me to address any of the other tangential stuff, just let me know.

You say that Rey would've turned into Empress Palpatine without a redeemed Ben. Fine. Let's stipulate that'd be the case. To make this easy, I'll go through all that would happen in that scenario, and you can pick whichever assertion you think I'm wrong about if you want.

1.) In order for Rey to become Empress, she'd have to go to Exogol and strike Palpatine.

2.) She'd go there, not with the intention of joining him, but with the intention of defeating him.

3.) She'd still ping her coordinates to the Resistance in order to defeat the Final Order fleet.

4.) Lando would be putting together his fleet of who-knows-how-many ships regardless of Kylo's redemption.

5.) Rey strikes down Palps and becomes an evil Empress.

6.) Lando's giant army arrives and takes down the Final Order fleet.

7.) The rest of the galaxy rises up against FO occupation the exact same way.

8.) Empress Palpatine may survive, but is left with an overwhelmed fighting force, no empire to rule over, and the good guys will have won the war.

Conclusion: Good guys still win the galactic conflict. And in much the same way.

Question: How would Kylo staying evil have changed that outcome?

Okay, assuming everything else plays out exactly the same then we have:

1. Rey heals Kylo.

2. He says thanks, takes his saber and kills her.

3. No Rey leading the Resistance to Exegol. Palpatine's fleet departs and terrorizes the galaxy forevermore.

Or scenario #2:

1. Rey heals Kylo and (somehow) escapes her fully healed and superior opponent who no longer has anything to distract him.

2. She goes to Ahch-To. Luke says "this is your fight kid but uh, since no one will be helping you I guess one saber will be enough."

3. She then proceeds to Exegol, leads the Resistance there, but doesn't believe they can win so she strikes Palpatine down and he inhabits her body.

4. Rey is gone (since Palpatine was obviously lying.) And now we have a young Empress Palpatine in his/her(?) prime who while probably not as dangerous as Dyad powered Palps is still gonna be a force (no pun intended) to be reckoned with. Lando and his fleet arrive. But so does Kylo. Maybe it still plays out the same and maybe it doesn't. Maybe having Empress Palpatine, Kylo, and all those Sith Eternal cultists would have changed the outcome, maybe to the point that even one or two of those planet killing Star Destroyers escape. Who knows, but Empress + Kylo + Cultists could have only made for a more difficult fight, and that's just going with the unlikely scenario that Rey escaped a fully healed but still evil Kylo and made it to Exegol in the first place.

 

[Khev]

I would say that 8 ended with really not much happening were they all just heading to the diner at the end lol

Maybe Palpatine should have been revealed.

I know right. I still think that they should have ended TLJ with Leia sending out the call for help and the only response they get back is Palpatine's laugh.

 

[JAWS]

There was already a way.

The Yuuzhan Vong. Or Thrawn. Or Rise of a Sith Army.

There were ways to go with it where we do get the happy ending of a restored Republic and Jedi Order, a killed Palpatine, but a new threat arises.

There didn?t need to be another Empire, let alone the only threat as the Empire, ST was a rehash of the OT but with a girl having to win Star Wars because KK.

Y?all are lying to yourselves or in denial if you don?t think a Grand Master Luke, married to Mara Jade with kids, and a happy Leia/Han with kids, restored Jedi Order, all facing a galaxy wide threat together, as THE SKYWALKER FAMILY, wouldn?t have been 100x better than what we got.

Can still have the fall of Luke in that. Can still have the downfall of Ben. Can still have Rey or Luke?s son be the hero in the end.

You literally could have pleased everybody, but they didn?t.

It was a **** agenda driven story from the start.

Edit: I could have written a better trilogy on the toilet in 20 minutes than they did in 2 years with a hoard of writers. Damn disgrace.

Well your happy ending was going to be ruined in two ways... Harrison Ford insisting on being killed and Carrie Fisher's untimely death... So poor Luke would have been a pretty sad Jedi by the end.

I never read the EU except for two of the three Timothy Zahn books.. Which I never finished because other then Thrawn I really didn't care.

I like the Ben Solo story just fine and ended up liking the Rey story.

What you are wishing for could have been done a few years after ROTJ but these are much older actors now.. Maybe one of your EU books takes place almost 40 years past Jedi IDK.. But I am fine with the direction and dramatic turn it took with the OT characters.

But I can't stress enough how I really don't care about George's "revised Saga of the Chosen One." I just don't.

Bam! I can't stress enough how much I am right there with you in regards to not caring about the "revised saga of the chosen one"

 

[JAWS]

Okay, assuming everything else plays out exactly the same then we have:

1. Rey heals Kylo.

2. He says thanks, takes his saber and kills her.

3. No Rey leading the Resistance to Exegol. Palpatine's fleet departs and terrorizes the galaxy forevermore.

Or scenario #2:

1. Rey heals Kylo and (somehow) escapes her fully healed and superior opponent who no longer has anything to distract him.

2. She goes to Ahch-To. Luke says "this is your fight kid but uh, since no one will be helping you I guess one saber will be enough."

3. She then proceeds to Exegol, leads the Resistance there, but doesn't believe they can win so she strikes Palpatine down and he inhabits her body.

4. Rey is gone (since Palpatine was obviously lying.) And now we have a young Empress Palpatine in his/her(?) prime who while probably not as dangerous as Dyad powered Palps is still gonna be a force (no pun intended) to be reckoned with. Lando and his fleet arrive. But so does Kylo. Maybe it still plays out the same and maybe it doesn't. Maybe having Empress Palpatine, Kylo, and all those Sith Eternal cultists would have changed the outcome, maybe to the point that even one or two of those planet killing Star Destroyers escape. Who knows, but Empress + Kylo + Cultists could have only made for a more difficult fight, and that's just going with the unlikely scenario that Rey escaped a fully healed but still evil Kylo and made it to Exegol in the first place.

What about the fact that Palps knocked out the full fleet? Or are we saying that he could only do that because he had the power of the Dyad?

 

[JAWS]

1.) In order for Rey to become Empress, she'd have to go to Exogol and strike Palpatine.

2.) She'd go there, not with the intention of joining him, but with the intention of defeating him.

3.) She'd still ping her coordinates to the Resistance in order to defeat the Final Order fleet.

4.) Lando would be putting together his fleet of who-knows-how-many ships regardless of Kylo's redemption.

5.) Rey strikes down Palps and becomes an evil Empress.

6.) Lando's giant army arrives and takes down the Final Order fleet.

7.) The rest of the galaxy rises up against FO occupation the exact same way.

8.) Empress Palpatine may survive, but is left with an overwhelmed fighting force, no empire to rule over, and the good guys will have won the war.

Conclusion: Good guys still win the galactic conflict. And in much the same way.

Question: How would Kylo staying evil have changed that outcome?

So what your saying is both redemptions are pointless

Probably

 

[JAWS]

Im off to watch 4K Empire

 

[Khev]

What about the fact that Palps knocked out the full fleet? Or are we saying that he could only do that because he had the power of the Dyad?

I assumed that he got his extra power from the Dyad. If not, and he was actually capable of taking out the fleet on his own in any fully restored body (including Rey's) then yeah there's no hypothetical scenario where the Resistance would have any chance at all of defeating him without Kylo turning from the Dark Side.

 

[Khev]

Im off to watch 4K Empire

Nice! Just cover your ears whenever Fett is about to speak, lol.

Oh and did you watch 4K RO or did you end up going right from ROTS to ANH?

 

[TheDucky]

Well your happy ending was going to be ruined in two ways... Harrison Ford insisting on being killed and Carrie Fisher's untimely death... So poor Luke would have been a pretty sad Jedi by the end.

I never read the EU except for two of the three Timothy Zahn books.. Which I never finished because other then Thrawn I really didn't care.

I like the Ben Solo story just fine and ended up liking the Rey story.

What you are wishing for could have been done a few years after ROTJ but these are much older actors now.. Maybe one of your EU books takes place almost 40 years past Jedi IDK.. But I am fine with the direction and dramatic turn it took with the OT characters.




Bam! I can't stress enough how much I am right there with you in regards to not caring about the "revised saga of the chosen one"

Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi, series that are 9 books long each, both take place 40+ years ABY. There is a comic series called Legacy that takes place 130-140 years ABY that follows Luke's/Leia's great grand kids.

I wouldn't be as upset with Han dying in the first movie if they showed he actually made something of himself and became a good father, husband, and Rebel/New Republic general. I'd make his death the catalyst for Ben's turn.

Carrie dying would be tough to deal with, but they did as best they could with that in TROS. Could be a single shot and show an on screen death, or just have her die like Chewbacca did saving her son (who I guess in this case would actually be Rey).

Sure, it wouldn't have been a happy ending per se for the OT gang, but at least they grew up to be who I thought they were all with the Skywalker legacy being carried forward by their children, so ultimately a happy ending for the greater good.

Edit: It's still a family story, about the Skywalkers, unlike what we got.

 

[Khev]

TROS: "The ajp and Ducky Cut", lol

 

[TheDucky]

The hell is Jar Jar doing there?

So true though.