Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[Python]

TROS goes by even faster at 6x speed. But still not fast enough.

I told myself to watch it again with fresh eyes a week ago. I started with good intentions, but after around twenty minutes I hit the fast forward button.

You're probably right, although I don't notice it so much with ROTS. The thing is, that movie has been better set up by the two proceeding movies which had a mostly established and flowing story arch. The rise of Skywalker is not only finishing off a trilogy, but it's first half is setting up a lot of stuff that the second movie should have. They're still introducing new characters in this one when it barely has enough time for the existing bunch. I hate to bang on about TLJ, I know it's the thing to do, but RJ clearly had no intention of playing ball, he just wanted to do his own thing which is fine, but not in the middle movie of a trilogy, they should have just given him one of the side movies or something instead (Or just recognised that he may not have been the right fit for this franchise at this time) As TLJ not only deflated much of the fan base, but it made the job of finishing the trilogy much more difficult. Although JJ still could have simplified things a bit I guess. It is what it is now anyway, I suspect (Hope) that the next trilogy have somebody else at the helm and will be better planned out from the beginning.

 

[Asta]

You're probably right, although I don't notice it so much with ROTS. The thing is, that movie has been better set up by the two proceeding movies which had a mostly established and flowing story arch. The rise of Skywalker is not only finishing off a trilogy, but it's first half is setting up a lot of stuff that the second movie should have. They're still introducing new characters in this one when it barely has enough time for the existing bunch. I hate to bang on about TLJ, I know it's the thing to do, but RJ clearly had no intention of playing ball, he just wanted to do his own thing which is fine, but not in the middle movie of a trilogy, they should have just given him one of the side movies or something instead (Or just recognised that he may not have been the right fit for this franchise at this time) As TLJ not only deflated much of the fan base, but it made the job of finishing the trilogy much more difficult. Although JJ still could have simplified things a bit I guess. It is what it is now anyway, I suspect (Hope) that the next trilogy have somebody else at the helm and will be better planned out from the beginning.

I preferred TLJ. For a while I was able to see some good in it.

However, the combination of the awful Kylo character and Daisy's bad acting meant that the heart of the sequel trilogy was ripped out from the start (in TFA).

TROS is the culmination of that directionless mess. I can't even consider it 'Star Wars'. It belongs in a segregated partition with the Ewok movies, Ewok cartoons, Droids cartoons, the Holiday Special, or colouring books.

It really does have more in common with Space Balls than the OT. It's 'Star Wars' for a new generation, and probably aimed at winning over the little girls who like Disney cartoon musicals...The Rise of Skywalker: When Beauty Kissed the Beast.

 

[user 64404]

You're probably right, although I don't notice it so much with ROTS. The thing is, that movie has been better set up by the two proceeding movies which had a mostly established and flowing story arch. The rise of Skywalker is not only finishing off a trilogy, but it's first half is setting up a lot of stuff that the second movie should have. They're still introducing new characters in this one when it barely has enough time for the existing bunch. I hate to bang on about TLJ, I know it's the thing to do, but RJ clearly had no intention of playing ball, he just wanted to do his own thing which is fine, but not in the middle movie of a trilogy, they should have just given him one of the side movies or something instead (Or just recognised that he may not have been the right fit for this franchise at this time) As TLJ not only deflated much of the fan base, but it made the job of finishing the trilogy much more difficult. Although JJ still could have simplified things a bit I guess. It is what it is now anyway, I suspect (Hope) that the next trilogy have somebody else at the helm and will be better planned out from the beginning.

I dont agree with your statement about Rian Johnson, "RJ clearly had no intention of playing ball, he just wanted to do his own thing", if you read the leaked Colin Trevorrow script(aproved during the pre production of the last jedi but canceled after the reception of TLJ) that the narrative of the 3 movies would make sense, as the normal people would rise and solve the matter with their ow hands stead of counting just with the the superheroes of the galaxy to resolve the issue.
Its a critics of the ending of the return of the jedi, Luke just defeat the 2 siths but the galaxy still is under a facist totalitarian govermente, how can 1 super jedi restart the democracy?

 

[Spartan Rex]

 

[jye4ever]

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[Khev]

Kylo literally physically turned around to see where his mothers voice was coming from he literally turned from dark towards the light which was also the direction Han emerged from.

Yeah, really nice symbolism with his literal turn.

I think you're assigning more to his pausing than there's any evidence for. Like I said, I think that was Kylo being stunned by an out-of-the-blue Force connection like he was when Rey saw him in her hut and shot at him with her blaster. He didn't even reflexively defend himself like he did when a blaster was fired at him in the beginning of TFA (when he froze the bolt in midair). He just goes into a confused, and curious, mode of self-suspension.

There's enough similar precedence, even in just three movies, for me to chalk up Kylo's reaction to his mom reaching out to him as just Kylo being Kylo. If you think that was enough to turn him, even just away from the dark, that's up to you. I just don't see any compelling reason to believe that, so I classify your interpretation more along the lines of unsubstantiated conjecture. Not "wrong" per se, since it's an opinion, but just something without enough basis to be more than pure guessing.

Well "Kylo being Kylo" *is* him being someone in the dark but feeling the call to the Light. He admitted as much in TFA and then we saw it again in TLJ when he held off on blowing up his mom. You seemed to have recognized that in a prior post which was more on point than this one IMO. I don't think an "out of the blue Force connection" on its own would have interrupted him mid-stroke in the middle of a battle. His reactions to the Force connection with Rey in TLJ were under wildly different circumstances and in the comfort of his own ship/quarters.

What stopped him in TROS was the fact that is was his mother specifically.

I thin the reason Rey didn't turn was simply because her force chastity belt was in place or Kylo had already impregnated her with a teleportation of super Dyad sperm. Or maybe Rey had already used Leia's lightsaber dildo and was satisfied beyond temptation.

Oh man, lol.

IMO it's not just Leia's reaching out to him, but his sensing her death as a result of it that truly stunned him, and it was the catalyst for his return to the light. Rey didn't realize his change until after she impaled him with the lightsaber, which is why she then healed him. That act of kindness/forgiveness was IMO the extra nudge he needed to reject the dark side for good, which was symbolized by his do-over "conversation" with Han.

Excellent point with regard to Leia's death being the true catalyst for turn. Damn I wish I had mentioned that, well done! Yeah not only sensing that his mother was reaching out to him but *feeling that she was giving up her own life to do it* finally got through his armor and touched the core of his soul. That was what got him. Then Rey immediately followed up by healing his physical wounds and his dad healed his emotional wounds. Spirit, body, emotions all healed in succession starting with Leia.

 

[jye4ever]

Yeah, really nice symbolism with his literal turn.



Well "Kylo being Kylo" *is* him being someone in the dark but feeling the call to the Light. He admitted as much in TFA and then we saw it again in TLJ when he held off on blowing up his mom. You seemed to have recognized that in a prior post which was more on point than this one IMO. I don't think an "out of the blue Force connection" on its own would have interrupted him mid-stroke in the middle of a battle. His reactions to the Force connection with Rey in TLJ were under wildly different circumstances and in the comfort of his own ship/quarters.

What stopped him in TROS was the fact that is was his mother specifically.



Oh man, lol.



Excellent point with regard to Leia's death being the true catalyst for turn. Damn I wish I had mentioned that, well done! Yeah not only sensing that his mother was reaching out to him but *feeling that she was giving up her own life to do it* finally got through his armor and touched the core of his soul. That was what got him. Then Rey immediately followed up by healing his physical wounds and his dad healed his emotional wounds. Spirit, body, emotions all healed in succession starting with Leia.

I?m enjoying drawing parallels between ROTS Anakin being manipulated by Palpatine with promises of saving Padme and TROS Kylo having a dyad with Rey (Palpatine) that is in a way honoring what Anakin was hoping to learn which was healing.

Rey heals Kylo

Kylo heals Rey

Luke also told Leia in TLJ that he was not on Crait to save Kylo.

In so many words Luke was telling Leia that one way or another eventually she was going to have to complete her training and deal with Kylo so that the path could open up for Kylo and Rey to deal with Palpatine.

I have never experienced a turnaround on a Star Wars film quite like this I truly went from meh to full on love.


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[Khev]

I?m enjoying drawing parallels between ROTS Anakin being manipulated by Palpatine with promises of saving Padme and TROS Kylo having a dyad with Rey (Palpatine) that is in a way honoring what Anakin was hoping to learn which was healing.

Rey heals Kylo

Kylo heals Rey

Luke also told Leia in TLJ that he was not on Crait to save Kylo.

In so many words Luke was telling Leia that one way or another eventually she was going to have to complete her training and deal with Kylo so that the path could open up for Kylo and Rey to deal with Palpatine.

Yep it literally plays like he's telling her that as he had to confront his father she must confront her son and then when she starts to give up by saying that she knows he's gone he tells her no he isn't. Then in TROS Leia does what needs to be done and earns her place at her brother's side when they both appear on Tatooine.

I have never experienced a turnaround on a Star Wars film quite like this I truly went from meh to full on love.

So true, though I loved TROS from the beginning I went back and forth on TLJ but I absolutely love that movie now. Sure a lot of the Rose and Holdo stuff is stupid but as has been said many times all SW after ESB is flawed so I can let that stuff go and just enjoy the truly great moments that it adds to the Saga. Freaking Yoda! Puppeteered by Frank Oz and that moves and sounds exactly like OT Yoda! I *never* thought we'd see that again after PT and CW Yoda being so far removed from the OT.

All the Luke, Leia, Rey, Kylo, and Snoke stuff in TLJ is awesome (okay yeah minus Leia Poppins but that never bothered me as much as it did for most other people.)

When I binged the OT + ST/RO and then immediately followed by binging PT/OT/ST the one thing that struck me both times was that TFA of all the films was the one that kind of felt like the biggest chore to sit through. Not because it was "bad" as it was clearly "better" than the PT but it just didn't hold my interest from beginning to end as well as the others. I still love the opening and the ending but a lot in the middle with Finn, Maz, etc., really had me just wanting to get to the next stuff.

Maybe that will change as I get used to the PT in 4K (because the wow factor of those new transfers definitely played a part in my renewed interest in them) and I'll go back to AOTC being the biggest chore to watch, who knows, lol. But TLJ is now right behind the OT/RO/TROS for me, warts and all.

Such a beautifully shot film (hell even George had to concede that), great acting, dialogue (mama jokes aside), visuals and the twists and turns that RJ nailed (Yoda's appearance, Snoke's surprise death, Rey and Ben fighting back to back) he *really* nailed. And then of course the perfect groundwork for the eventual Dyad with the remote Force connection between Rey and Kylo.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Well "Kylo being Kylo" *is* him being someone in the dark but feeling the call to the Light. He admitted as much in TFA and then we saw it again in TLJ when he held off on blowing up his mom. You seemed to have recognized that in a prior post which was more on point than this one IMO. I don't think an "out of the blue Force connection" on its own would have interrupted him mid-stroke in the middle of a battle. His reactions to the Force connection with Rey in TLJ were under wildly different circumstances and in the comfort of his own ship/quarters.

What stopped him in TROS was the fact that is was his mother specifically.

So, if some other Force-user reached out to Kylo mid-fight, and grabbed his attention like that, you think he'd continue concentrating on swinging? He'd just brush it off uninterrupted? Even Finn calling out to Rey got her attention enough to turn from what she was doing in order to shove him down.

Yes, the fact that it was his mom added to the urgency to pause. He paused before killing Han too. So what? And it is indeed like when he paused with his thumb over the trigger in TLJ (that's why I brought it up). But in TLJ, what happened right after that? His wing mates blew up his mom and he was fine seconds later. He was so over it, in fact, that he got frustrated at Hux ordering a return from his attack run. He had to believe that his mom was dead, and he didn't give a **** for more than a few seconds.

The dude was conflicted, and he himself admitted as much. But he was still a monster, and also admitted as much. His dad reached out (quite literally) to that same conflicted guy, and Kylo stabbed him. His uncle came to him, and Kylo scoffed at the idea of coming there "to save my soul?" He then tried to slice his uncle in half.

The TROS scene with Han was absolutely terrific; and if Kylo had to be redeemed, I can't imagine a better way to go about it than a mirror of the TFA scene with his father. But Leia's role was hampered by Carrie's death. There's only so much they could do, and they did an admirable job with what they had available. But anything profound attributed to Leia's specific role in Kylo's turn is unsubstantiated by what's on screen. It's just fans inserting what they want to believe.

Leia reaching out and grabbing her son's attention being enough to get him to abandon his dark ambitions? No way. That's a disservice to every other action he took (the family and friends he murdered) in the previous movies. It wouldn't be enough. He'd already seen his mom die once, and he got over it (quickly). Why would this time be different? It wouldn't. What was different was everything that happened *after* that. A near-death experience, being healed of a mortal wound by an "enemy," and receiving a father's forgiveness and understanding (even if only in his mind) . . . those events are what combined to turn Ben back.

You said that an interpretation of Kylo resuming the fight with Rey if she hadn't stabbed him was just silly. Well, I think the idea of him going from monster to good little boy because he got a call from mommy is what's silly. I guess that explains our different point of view here.

 

[Khev]

So, if some other Force-user reached out to Kylo mid-fight, and grabbed his attention like that, you think he'd continue concentrating on swinging? He'd just brush it off uninterrupted? Even Finn calling out to Rey got her attention enough to turn from what she was doing in order to shove him down.

Yes, the fact that it was his mom added to the urgency to pause. He paused before killing Han too. So what? And it is indeed like when he paused with his thumb over the trigger in TLJ (that's why I brought it up). But in TLJ, what happened right after that? His wing mates blew up his mom and he was fine seconds later. He was so over it, in fact, that he got frustrated at Hux ordering a return from his attack run. He had to believe that his mom was dead, and he didn't give a **** for more than a few seconds.

The dude was conflicted, and he himself admitted as much. But he was still a monster, and also admitted as much. His dad reached out (quite literally) to that same conflicted guy, and Kylo stabbed him. His uncle came to him, and Kylo scoffed at the idea of coming there "to save my soul?" He then tried to slice his uncle in half.

The TROS scene with Han was absolutely terrific; and if Kylo had to be redeemed, I can't imagine a better way to go about it than a mirror of the TFA scene with his father. But Leia's role was hampered by Carrie's death. There's only so much they could do, and they did an admirable job with what they had available. But anything profound attributed to Leia's specific role in Kylo's turn is unsubstantiated by what's on screen. It's just fans inserting what they want to believe.

Leia reaching out and grabbing her son's attention being enough to get him to abandon his dark ambitions? No way. That's a disservice to every other action he took (the family and friends he murdered) in the previous movies. It wouldn't be enough. He'd already seen his mom die once, and he got over it (quickly). Why would this time be different? It wouldn't. What was different was everything that happened *after* that. A near-death experience, being healed of a mortal wound by an "enemy," and receiving a father's forgiveness and understanding (even if only in his mind) . . . those events are what combined to turn Ben back.

You said that an interpretation of Kylo resuming the fight with Rey if she hadn't stabbed him was just silly. Well, I think the idea of him going from monster to good little boy because he got a call from mommy is what's silly. I guess that explains our different point of view here.

So you think it's silly. Well you're not alone. And I noticed that you trimmed the addition that Buffinator brought to the table with Ben feeling his own estranged mother giving her literal life for him even *after* he had murdered his father which I think negates all the counterpoints you just cited above. But like you said before we're two guys that disagree on some aspects of Star Wars. No big.

 

[ajp4mgs]

So you think it's silly. Well you're not alone. And I noticed that you trimmed the addition that Buffinator brought to the table with Ben feeling his own estranged mother giving her literal life for him even *after* he had murdered his father which I think negates all the counterpoints you just cited above. But like you said before we're two guys that disagree on Star Wars. No big.

I didn't trim it, I just think it falls into the pure guessing category. How the hell would I know if Kylo could sense that Leia was giving her life to reach him? Why would that even happen when we've seen Luke reach out to Leia from across the galaxy in the previous movie and be fine? I think making an assumption that Kylo was aware of his mom sacrificing her life for him is fine for any fan to do, but I didn't address that point because I don't see any definitive reason to believe that's what actually happened.

Again, I think they did the best they could with Leia. But all of what you're attributing to her is stuff that you have to create in your own mind. You're willing to do it because you liked the movie. That's fine. But that doesn't give you an authoritative take on what Leia's role was as presented in the film.

Kylo probably already knew that *either* of his parents would die for him - no matter what atrocities he committed. That was baked into the cake. In fact, Han *did* die for him, and then lovingly reached for his son's face. That didn't turn Kylo to the good did it?

 

[Khev]

I didn't trim it, I just think it falls into the pure guessing category. How the hell would I know if Kylo could sense that Leia was giving her life to reach him? Why would that even happen when we've seen Luke reach out to Leia from across the galaxy in the previous movie and be fine? I think making an assumption that Kylo was aware of his mom sacrificing her life for him is fine for any fan to do, but I didn't address that point because I don't see any definitive reason to believe that's what actually happened.

I'm not making an assumption. We saw Rey sense Leia's sacrifice and she wasn't even related to her. Then a few minutes later Ben tells his dad that his mother is gone. He knew.

Again, I think they did the best they could with Leia. But all of what you're attributing to her is stuff that you have to create in your own mind. You're willing to do it because you liked the movie. That's fine. But that doesn't give you an authoritative take on what Leia's role was as presented in the film.

Kylo probably already knew that *either* of his parents would die for him - no matter what atrocities he committed. That was baked into the cake. In fact, Han *did* die for him, and then lovingly reached for his son's face. That didn't turn Kylo to the good did it?

No but it left a huge chink in his armor.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'm not making an assumption. We saw Rey sense Leia's sacrifice and she wasn't even related to her. Then a few minutes later Ben tells his dad that his mother is gone. He knew.

Excellent point. Kylo knew that his mom died trying to reach him; but *when* did he know that? You're suggesting at the same time as Rey? Okay. So using Rey's awareness as proof of Kylo's means that he wouldn't know Leia died until after he paused, and after Rey stabbed him. So his mom's death, which Rey didn't sense until after the stabbing (am I correct?), isn't the specific reason that made him stop fighting.

And that just goes back to what I was saying that Kylo's turn happened due to what occurred *after* he got stabbed.

No but it left a huge chink in his armor.

Not big enough to overlook what he would've likely assumed was his mother's death in TLJ. And not big enough not to want to slice his uncle in half (after bombarding him with a bunch of AT-AT fire). "Huge chink in his armor?" We'll just have to disagree on that point too.

 

[Khev]

Excellent point. Kylo knew that his mom died trying to reach him; but *when* did he know that? You're suggesting at the same time as Rey? Okay. So using Rey's awareness as proof of Kylo's means that he wouldn't know Leia died until after he paused, and after Rey stabbed him. So his mom's death, which Rey didn't sense until after the stabbing (am I correct?), isn't the specific reason that made him stop fighting.

And that just goes back to what I was saying that Kylo's turn happened due to what occurred *after* he got stabbed.

Now that's some serious hair splitting but that's what we do so I'll say this in response. You're acting like Leia simply startled him during the battle and therefore that "doesn't count" in turning him and that it was only her death *seconds later* that *did* count in turning him and by that time it was moot because Rey had already won and so therefore his entire redemption was meaningless in helping turn the tide against Palpatine and only served to do nothing but be a means to bring Rey back to life at the end. Correct?

Well for one thing I find it interesting that you use that interpretation to dismiss the narrative weight of Ben's redemption when a few posts ago you said that Anakin's redemption *did* have meaning because it allowed Luke to be saved. So there's obviously quite the double standard there.

But I still don't agree with that take in the first place because Leia's act just isn't that granular. "Boo!" "Ah!" *stab* *dies* *turns*

No, she called his name and turned him from the Dark. He would have felt her life draining away as she did that. We know this because both Rey and Leia were able to feel Luke's "peace and purpose" as he died in TLJ. When you have a connection with someone in the Force you don't just have an awareness of their presence but you actually feel what they are feeling. At least when you have a deep bond with them. We also know that apparently the bond that immediate family members have is definitely stronger than someone not related *even if that person is the most powerful Force user in the galaxy.*

Case in point, the Emperor and Vader in ROTJ. "My son is with them. I felt him." "Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings for this are clearer Lord Vader?" "They are clearer." So even being a Palpatine doesn't give you the inside track on the connection of direct family members. So Rey's senses aren't the end all be all example of what Ben felt from his mother.

Ben would have known what she was doing, felt what she was feeling, and stepped away from the Dark as a result.

Not big enough to overlook what he would've likely assumed was his mother's death in TLJ. And not big enough not to want to slice his uncle in half (after bombarding him with a bunch of AT-AT fire). "Huge chink in his armor?"

Yes. Snoke called it out and Rey saw it too. Very clearly when they were connected and he said "Yes, I am a monster" and then she flinched in surprise, her furious expression softening suggesting that she was beginning to realize that his "monstrous" demeanor was a ruse. I think this was *very* clear throughout the entire ST and it's a credit to Driver's incredibly nuanced performance.

Yes he was feeding off anger even through his confrontation with Luke but there is a constant undertone of another layer to Kylo that he was still deeply upset that his connection to his parents and uncle was broken. Every film in the ST suggests that the "monster" was a cover for the pain he was feeling. Do I think that he was pulling back from the darkness in TLJ when he sensed his mother on the Raddus? Yes I do! But then her "death" and the imminent destruction of the rest of the Resistance made it moot and he just gave right back in to the Darkness again.

We'll just have to disagree on that point too.

So be it.

 

[JAWS]

I watched this again last night. I stand by everything I said, the movie just goes by at light speed in a jumbled mess. But you know what, knowing what to expect, and turning my brain off a little I actually enjoyed large parts of it. It's almost similar to the prequels in a way, plenty of flaws, but ultimately enjoyable. And it does have flaws, lots of them, I'd have like to have seen a few things done differently, but it isn't bad. I have no desire to ever watch TLJ again, twice was two times too many. But this one I will likely revisit on occasion as I do every Star Wars movie.

Yep... I enjoyed it more then you with my first viewing but I cant argue about the breakneck speed. It may be the films only fault but that fault ends after Rey finds out she is a Palps.. I think the film slows down then and flows better.. Having said that there is a lot to enjoy when its moving fast also


Khev's quote.

​

Well "Kylo being Kylo" *is* him being someone in the dark but feeling the call to the Light. He admitted as much in TFA and then we saw it again in TLJ when he held off on blowing up his mom. You seemed to have recognized that in a prior post which was more on point than this one IMO. I don't think an "out of the blue Force connection" on its own would have interrupted him mid-stroke in the middle of a battle. His reactions to the Force connection with Rey in TLJ were under wildly different circumstances and in the comfort of his own ship/quarters.

What stopped him in TROS was the fact that is was his mother specifically

I always thought that TLJ moment of him not blowing up his mom was showing that he had light in him.

​

Excellent point with regard to Leia's death being the true catalyst for turn. Damn I wish I had mentioned that, well done! Yeah not only sensing that his mother was reaching out to him but *feeling that she was giving up her own life to do it* finally got through his armor and touched the core of his soul. That was what got him. Then Rey immediately followed up by healing his physical wounds and his dad healed his emotional wounds. Spirit, body, emotions all healed in succession starting with Leia.

Hmmm not sure about this... Leia did not die until he was stabbed. It was Rey who snapped out of being sucked into the dark side by Leia's death... I guess you could say Leia saved two people from the dark side at that moment.

I tend to think that Leia calling out to Ben was the beginning of his turn. Her death was probably helped solidified it. Rey's healing probably helped a bit also.. But he still was sort of lost between light and dark still IMO..

He had to talk himself into turning to the light... And that is what that conversation with Han was all about.

I think the vison of Han is in Kylo's mind. Han says as much.. So it is a conversation he is having with himself. He used his father's memory to help take him the rest of the way.. He envisions his fathers love and forgiveness which allows him to forgive himself and turn to the light completely.

It also works if you think Han is a literal Ghost... But Han says something about being in Kylo's head... So I go with that.

 

[Khev]

I always thought that TLJ moment of him not blowing up his mom was showing that he had light in him.

Same.

not sure about this... Leia did not die until he was stabbed. It was Rey who snapped out of being sucked into the dark side by Leia's death... I guess you could say Leia saved two people from the dark side at that moment.

I tend to think that Leia calling out to Ben was the beginning of his turn. Her death was probably helped solidified it. Rey's healing probably helped a bit also.. But he still was sort of lost between light and dark still IMO..

He had to talk himself into turning to the light... And that is what that conversation with Han was all about.

I think the vison of Han is in Kylo's mind. Han says as much.. So it is a conversation he is having with himself. He used his father's memory to help take him the rest of the way.. He envisions his fathers love and forgiveness which allows him to forgive himself and turn to the light completely.

It also works if you think Han is a literal Ghost... But Han says something about being in Kylo's head... So I go with that.

Ben says "you're a memory" to which Han replies "your memory." Han wasn't big on over-explaining things so even if he was a literal ghost I don't see him as being one to argue the semantics of the particular metaphysics responsible for his appearance at that time when there were far more pressing matters to discuss.

"NO BEN, I'm an effing ghost!"

"Liar!"

lol

Now Han actually is one where I willfully go against the director's intentions and prefer to embrace the ambiguity of the scene that allows me to just pretend it's really him in spirit form. After TROS was first released it was supposedly leaked that Abrams' original cut showed that Leia had created the Force projection of Han but that Iger overruled him and made him re-edit it to be more ambiguous.

Ford himself states on the blu-ray extras that the nature of Han's appearance is "ambiguous but also obvious if you think about it." PLUS there's the fact that Ben seemingly sees his dad fully in the flesh and not a shimmering blue ghost like all the Jedi. So in summary yeah I do believe that those of you who interpret Han's appearance as being a projection from either Leia or Ben's mind do indeed have the "correct" take with regard to what was intended.

But I just like it really being him too much and the film leaves the door open ever so slightly for me to embrace that notion so that's what I'm doing. I'll just assume that only Jedi are blue and see-through as ridiculous as that is, lol.

 

[JAWS]

Man I cant get over how much I missed over the past couple of days and how much people seemed confused by this simple little film

Rey becoming a Skywalker.. Doesn't matter if you think she has literally become a Skywalker or just planted the name to hers it is a symbol of the Skywalker name living on after the death of the Luke, Leia, and Ben. Rey will go on teaching the force and tell stories of the Heroics of Luke, Leia, and Ben. The Skywalker name goes on through her.


On Rey killing Palps and Ben coming to save the day... Its all right there.. Rey is about to Kill Palps because she thinks its the only way to save her friends because Palps tells her as much... She senses Ben is there and has gone to the light and she resists.

On the Emperor's death and Rey not being possessed... She does not kill him out of fright or Anger but out of self defense.. Pretty big difference.

 

[Khev]

Man I cant get over how much I missed over the past couple of days and how much people seemed confused by this simple little film

Rey becoming a Skywalker.. Doesn't matter if you think she has literally become a Skywalker or just planted the name to hers it is a symbol of the Skywalker name living on after the death of the Luke, Leia, and Ben. Rey will go on teaching the force and tall stories of the Heroics of Luke, Leia, and Ben. The Skywalker name goes on through her.


On Rey killing Palps and Ben coming to save the day... Its all right there.. Rey is about to Kill Palps because she thinks its the only way to save her friends because Palps tells her as much... She senses Ben is there and has gone to the light and she resists.

On the Emperor's death and Rey not being possessed... She does not kill him out of fright or Anger but out of self defense.. Pretty big difference.

Finally Lando freaking shows up with the fleet and settles the matter, lol.

 

[JAWS]

Ben says "you're a memory" to which Han replies "your memory." Han wasn't big on over-explaining things so even if he was a literal ghost I don't see him as being one to argue the semantics of the particular metaphysics responsible for his appearance at that time when there were far more pressing matters to discuss.

"NO BEN, I'm an effing ghost!"

"Liar!"

lol

Now Han actually is one where I willfully go against the director's intentions and prefer to embrace the ambiguity of the scene that allows me to just pretend it's really him in spirit form. After TROS was first released it was supposedly leaked that Abrams' original cut showed that Leia had created the Force projection of Han but that Iger overruled him and made him re-edit it to be more ambiguous.

Ford himself states on the blu-ray extras that the nature of Han's appearance is "ambiguous but also obvious if you think about it." PLUS there's the fact that Ben seemingly sees his dad fully in the flesh and not a shimmering blue ghost like all the Jedi. So in summary yeah I do believe that those of you who interpret Han's appearance as being a projection from either Leia or Ben's mind do indeed have the "correct" take with regard to what was intended.

But I just like it really being him too much and the film leaves the door open ever so slightly for me to embrace that notion so that's what I'm doing. I'll just assume that only Jedi are blue and see-through as ridiculous as that is, lol.

I am fine either way.. I use to like the idea of him being a ghost.. I wish he was.. But I am fine with Ben's memory also.. I don't like the idea of Leia planting him there.

 

[JAWS]

Finally Lando freaking shows up with the fleet and settles the matter, lol.