Star Wars: Episode IX - THE RISE OF SKYWALKER

[JAWS]

Even looking at the OT before the special editions, and before the PT, Vader always seemed to me being only interested in using Luke for dark/evil purposes. At best, he wanted Luke to join him in order to make a power grab by overthrowing the Emperor.

When Vader raised the possibility with the Emperor of turning his son to the dark side, I think we have a clear indication that he wasn't just trying to save his son from being killed. And why? Because Vader telling Luke, "don't make me destroy you" meant that while he didn't want to kill Luke, he *would* if need be. Even at that late point in ESB, Vader was willing to do whatever it took to keep Luke from becoming a Jedi. I don't see how that shows conflict between light and dark. It's more like conflict between dark and darker.

Oh I wasn't thinking of Conflict between light and dark

I guess I was just thinking of Vader having some conflicted feelings over his son. As I said I think Vader would have no issue killing some random dude with the force that Blew up the Death Star rather then trying to team up with him. But finding out its his son gave him pause. Yes it was partly to overthrow then Emperor but like I said I don't think he tries this with another force user... I am sure in the EU he does but I am just going on the films and how I use to feel when it was only those films.

I think the conflicted Vader started as the Bespin duel progressed, but probably only really took true hold when he called out to Luke with the Force. That was after presumably having had a chance to search his feelings alone on his star destroyer. And connecting via the Force meant allowing a bond to form that could probably be more profound of a connection than just interacting with someone in the same space person to person. Even before that became evident in the ST, I think it's fair to assume the Force bridged Luke and Vader in a more profound way than would've happened otherwise.

I would agree that Luke at this point became a real thing to Vader rather then just an idea. But I think it was still just a "Lets rule the galaxy as father and son"

I guess when it came to Luke I never really thought about Vader having a conflict with the light or Dark side of the force back then. His conflict was always about the love for his son and what did that mean. Yes, it means there is some good in him. But in a way its a selfish good. I mean he killed the Emperor to save his son not the Galaxy. I am not saying that Vader did not finally see the error in his ways at the end but his conflict was more about his kid then the force. That was the good in him.

Lets say that in order to save the galaxy at the end of ROTJ he had to sacrifice Luke... Is Vader so good in the force that he does that.. I know I am way overthinking this

I tend to think that Vader would have been just as happy in ROTJ if Luke called him and said.. "Hey Im thinking about that offer you made. I am ready to rule with you"

But I agree.. Its the love of his son that brought the light back in him and that is what its all supposed to mean.

Exactly. You bring up even more points/evidence as to Vader's state of mind. I think it changed at the end of ESB, and that change was made evident in the storytelling cues provided.

That is a great point a-dev brings up... I would say that is the best argument to show that Vader is becoming good and going beyond just caring for his son.. Thus making everything I wrote up top pointless


I still hate how Vader is played in ROTJ... BUT it probably would not be such an issue if almost everyone else in the film didn't suck and the film wasn't such a bore... Man I really hated my last viewing of this film

 

[JAWS]

Ok I?ll agree with you on this. If you play the ROTS game there is more dialogue between the two and more banter. It?s actually well made and very good. Obiwan literally begs anakin to return but he?s to far gone . That game was lowkey pretty great

What game was that?

I agree. Having Obi Wan beg for Anakin to come back would have been a bit more dramatic and bring meaning to the line "Obi Wan once thought as you did" in ROTJ

 

[aussiebottt]

Yeah I don't see PT Yoda as overconfident and arrogant.

Darth Sidious saw it differently "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda..."

 

[TheDucky]

14 according to Ashley Eckstein. Some TCW fan you are.



Yeah that'd make sense. Like she's pinned down and the Jedi determine that she can't be saved so they order her to be abandoned (due to not having attachments that would get in the way of missions) and Anakin goes ballistic as a result.

Make it Mace who decided to leave her too. Make Anakin really mean that swing when he cuts off his arm

I'm not sure what you mean by "they kill Palpatine, Vader takes over." Takes over what? Anakin/Vader wouldn't inherit Palpatine's position of authority. The governing authority of the galaxy at the end of ROTS wasn't an empire yet, so there's no such thing as inheriting Palpatine's power. If they kill Palpatine, a new leader would be chosen by the galactic senate. And it wouldn't be Anakin.

Anakin/Vader had no authority. He was an enforcer of Palpatine's will. He was a hunter/slayer of Jedi. And in that respect, he (and the clones via Order 66) had already done almost a full job. Even the clone army wouldn't have been told to answer to Anakin in the event of Palpatine's death; Anakin had only recently been turned. They'd likely answer to a new chancellor.

Yes it was. Palpatine declares the formation of the Empire before the duels take place.

Anakin brought peace to the galaxy and ended the war. He would be in command of the Republic army as it's last true General. He was a famous Clone War hero who had the Chancellor's favor. After killing the Jedi that killed the Chancellor, he absolutely would have been in a position of authority. He is voted in or takes it by force. This is the same Galactic Senate that applauded being turned into an Empire They don't care

In my view, Vader was conflicted only after he began facing off with his son. Remember, he first decided to use Bespin's freezing chamber in order to pack Luke nice and tidy for the Emperor. To let his son be turned to the dark side! Vader's inner conflict didn't start until Luke put up a fight and showed his spirit/resolve. The same spirit Anakin would've once had.

The fact Vader even allows Luke to live shows his inner conflict for me. Why would he even give Palpatine the chance to replace him with a younger, possibly stronger apprentice who doesn't need a suit to survive? Vader probably knew he was being Dooku'd. Palpatine is a liar anyways, everything he says can't be taken at face value. I mean, Vader himself planned to overthrow him with Luke

Why would he be conflicted before that? The whole reason he became a Sith was to learn how to save his family. Between the end of ROTS and the beginning of ESB, Vader remained a Sith despite knowing Padme had died (and assuming his offspring died with her). In those years, he would've been more like a soulless drone with nothing left to draw him back to the light. He was essentially a willing instrument of evil.


He was choking people out for even small failures, or for very mild expressions of insolence. He tortured Han Solo just to watch him suffer; didn't even ask any questions. He was evil because he had embraced the dark side fully enough for Palps to not suspect a conflicted soul for all those years. There was nothing to draw Vader back to the light until Luke. Anakin's hope had been extinguished before that, IMO.

He was always conflicted because of Padme. Always in pain. The light that was still in him was that of Padme's memory. His redemption began the moment she died. He just needed someone to spark it... and eventually that spark was the realization that he had a son.

I've always viewed Vader like this though. Even before that comic.

Gotta disagree with you here Monkey. Just because Anakin says that Kenobi feel like a Father/brother to him does not mean that it is ever shown in the films. A little bit in the first 30 or so min in ROTS but in all honesty its too little to late.

Hell we get nothing out of their relationship in TPM and in AOTC Obi wan is just constantly putting down Anakin in the limited time they share the screen together.

Very frustrating.

I would say yes... The Kylo / Rey relationship is far more interesting.. Minus the kiss at the end Granted it was a very different one. But if you hate the films like you do then yeah.. None of the relationships are going to do anything for you.

I really wish that final duel felt like two great friends going fighting each other.. Not just two guys we are told are close.

Well damn, if you dismiss the relationship for Obi/Anakin on put downs, how do you rationalize Reylo when Kylo tortures her, mind rapes her, tries to kill her on multiple occasion, killed or tried to kill her friends?

 

[JAWS]

Well damn, if you dismiss the relationship for Obi/Anakin on put downs, how do you rationalize Reylo when Kylo tortures her, mind rapes her, tries to kill her on multiple occasion, killed or tried to kill her friends?

Hey there.. They mind rape each other. I think they are both into it.. :Lol

I am not sure he ever really tries to kill her. Other then in TROS before Leia stepped in.. There really was not a moment where he tried to kill her. Maybe when he was flying the Tie Fighter at her but I think that was more for show, to convince the emperor, then an actual attempt to kill her.. He was still trying to have her join him.

Luke had no problem trying to turn Vader after the literal hell Vader put him through ANH and Empire. He killed his lifelong best friend, his mentor, captured and tortured his friends, sent Han to Jabba, got his ass kicked in a duel and got his hand cut off.. Then gets a true mind **** when Vader says that he is his father.. All the sudden we are to think Luke now found feeling for this guy.. Its SW man We go with the flow.

Rey and Kylo They built said relationship over the course of three films. She hated him in the first film, saw some good in him, felt sorry for him and thought she might be able to turn him to the good side in the 2nd. Ben was in constant turmoil and trying to resist the light. He wanted her to turn to the dark side to be by his side through most of all three films but at the same time I think there was a temptation for him to come to the light side. By the end of the film they both are pushed to try and kill each other but both are in the grips of the Dark Side at that point and needed Leia's help them both find their way back and in the end we see them fight alongside each other.. But its built on in all three films. In a way its a much longer drawn out version of Luke and Vader. Hate, confusion, temptation, anger, redemption.

Now where it all went wrong was that dumb kiss. I cant argue there.. I never once thought of the relationship as a romantic one.. I just shut my eyes during that moment in the film.

Their relationship worked for me. It was the one aspect that I found to be most interesting even before TROS.


Anakin and Obi Wan share little to no time together in TPM. They spend little time together in AOTC and what little is, is spent complaining about each other and Obi Wan embarrassing Anakin every chance he gets. We finally reach the third film and we get to see them look a bit more like friends for a scene or two. The return after the Rescue of the Emperor and when Obi Wan leaves to go find GG.. Personally I feel the films needed a lot more of that. We should feel something about the loss of friendship in that final duel.. But in all honesty I don't.. Now a cartoon series has helped me to accept this friendship and I am sure your EU boks and comics have added that for you.. But I am talking about just the films themselves since that is what most of us only see. The only reason it works at all is because we are told it should and its SW man.. We go with the flow.

I am not hating on the films.. I am pointing out what could have IMO helped make them so much better. It goes along with my other takes about the films that you actually agree with. I think you probably know this is true also... But you have so much time and investment in the comics, books, and Cartoon series that you have a hard time remembering what it was like when it was just the movies.

 

[JAWS]

He was always conflicted because of Padme. Always in pain. The light that was still in him was that of Padme's memory. His redemption began the moment she died. He just needed someone to spark it... and eventually that spark was the realization that he had a son.

There was no Padme when the OT was made.. No conflict till he found out about Luke destroying the Death Star. He was not shocked to find out he had a son out there. Nothing in the OT made us think that. I think he always knew he had a son in the OT before the PT.

Now that the PT has been made we can see how Lucas did a Retcon of Vader's turmoil.

Lucas had to redo the Emperor / Vader scene in ESB to help it make sense and force it to tie in with the PT.​

So with the PT in mind.. I agree with your take.. He was always in turmoil and full of regret.



I could be wrong here but I think everyone was discussing Vader's conflict when the OT was all that existed.

Maybe I am wrong.. That was my argument when I was talking about this

 

[ironwez20]

What game was that?

I agree. Having Obi Wan beg for Anakin to come back would have been a bit more dramatic and bring meaning to the line "Obi Wan once thought as you did" in ROTJ

In the rots tie in game. The final fight has various cut scenes that have obiwan and anakin arguing . It?s not perfect but it makes more sense for obiwan to beg anakin to come back instead of keeping silent the whole time. I was surprised the game executed it better

https://youtu.be/0neuLfXrmPM

Skip to 40:03

 

[ironwez20]

Hey there.. They mind rape each other. I think they are both into it.. :Lol

I am not sure he ever really tries to kill her. Other then in TROS before Leia stepped in.. There really was not a moment where he tried to kill her. Maybe when he was flying the Tie Fighter at her but I think that was more for show, to convince the emperor, then an actual attempt to kill her.. He was still trying to have her join him.

Luke had no problem trying to turn Vader after the literal hell Vader put him through ANH and Empire. He killed his lifelong best friend, his mentor, captured and tortured his friends, sent Han to Jabba, got his ass kicked in a duel and got his hand cut off.. Then gets a true mind **** when Vader says that he is his father.. All the sudden we are to think Luke now found feeling for this guy.. Its SW man We go with the flow.

Rey and Kylo They built said relationship over the course of three films. She hated him in the first film, saw some good in him, felt sorry for him and thought she might be able to turn him to the good side in the 2nd. Ben was in constant turmoil and trying to resist the light. He wanted her to turn to the dark side to be by his side through most of all three films but at the same time I think there was a temptation for him to come to the light side. By the end of the film they both are pushed to try and kill each other but both are in the grips of the Dark Side at that point and needed Leia's help them both find their way back and in the end we see them fight alongside each other.. But its built on in all three films. In a way its a much longer drawn out version of Luke and Vader. Hate, confusion, temptation, anger, redemption.

Now where it all went wrong was that dumb kiss. I cant argue there.. I never once thought of the relationship as a romantic one.. I just shut my eyes during that moment in the film.

Their relationship worked for me. It was the one aspect that I found to be most interesting even before TROS.


Anakin and Obi Wan share little to no time together in TPM. They spend little time together in AOTC and what little is, is spent complaining about each other and Obi Wan embarrassing Anakin every chance he gets. We finally reach the third film and we get to see them look a bit more like friends for a scene or two. The return after the Rescue of the Emperor and when Obi Wan leaves to go find GG.. Personally I feel the films needed a lot more of that. We should feel something about the loss of friendship in that final duel.. But in all honesty I don't.. Now a cartoon series has helped me to accept this friendship and I am sure your EU boks and comics have added that for you.. But I am talking about just the films themselves since that is what most of us only see. The only reason it works at all is because we are told it should and its SW man.. We go with the flow.

I am not hating on the films.. I am pointing out what could have IMO helped make them so much better. It goes along with my other takes about the films that you actually agree with. I think you probably know this is true also... But you have so much time and investment in the comics, books, and Cartoon series that you have a hard time remembering what it was like when it was just the movies.

Huh? Rey abd kylo relationship was horrible. I felt no connection or anything between those two. Just constant fighting and bickering to finally working together . Poorly developed

 

[Khev]

Agreed. I'd add that Luke's decision to fall to his death rather than take Vader's offer was another clincher. ''He will join us or die, master'' - I don't think Vader actually expected Luke to choose the latter. It impressed him and even moved him - leading him to become the more thoughtful, 'pussified' version of himself in ROTJ that some people criticize but I find entirely plausible. Heck, after his encounter with Luke, he'd already stopped killing his own officers by the end of ESB even though Piett had failed him just the same as Ozzel and Needa earlier in the film.

Growing up with the OT my friends and I never interpreted the scene that way. We always saw it that Vader was *so* sick with rage after the Falcon disappeared that he was actually *too angry* to kill anyone. He couldn't speak, he couldn't do anything other than a single double take and was seething with so much anger I believe that if he started taking it out on those around him he realized that he likely wouldn't stop with Piett and might have wiped out every single man who was present on the bridge.

I got the impression that they all sensed it which is why every single officer (not just Piett) stopped what they were doing to see how Vader would react.

I believe this interpretation is further enforced by the first scene of ROTJ (and the very next scene that Vader appears on film after leaving the bridge of the Executor) where he tells Moff Jerjerrod that "the Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." If Vader had really softened as you suggest then his comment in ROTJ really isn't that sinister. But Jerjerrod's immediate terror at that thought and subsequent promise to double his efforts indicate that Vader still very much had the same approach to those beneath him who failed.

Jerjerrod himself even got a little example of that in a deleted scene where he and the Royal Guards once try to block Vader from disturbing the Emperor:

 

[ajp4mgs]

Lets say that in order to save the galaxy at the end of ROTJ he had to sacrifice Luke... Is Vader so good in the force that he does that.. I know I am way overthinking this

That's a fun question to think about. If everything else played out the same exact way, but for some reason the redeemed Vader/Anakin would also need to sacrifice Luke for galactic peace, I don't think he would. His return to the light was rooted in family, and in keeping that family safe and unified.

Vader wanted his children to live, but also to know that he loved them. That's why his dying words were for Luke to tell Leia he was right about the good in him. That's a really big deal, and a deliberate use of Vader's last words to help the audience understand the key takeaway. I think being remembered as a good man did matter to him, but it mattered more as a father than as a former Jedi or as a citizen of the galaxy.

So, yes, Anakin's redemption was more about a father being redeemed than a Jedi being redeemed. Either way, though, the end result is an Anakin not consumed by darkness. Being no longer willing to let his son die just to save the Sith from the Jedi is still a wholesale rejection of the dark side. He became a good man again (hence the Force ghost at the end), but it was still family first ahead of everything else.

Yes it was. Palpatine declares the formation of the Empire before the duels take place.

Anakin brought peace to the galaxy and ended the war. He would be in command of the Republic army as it's last true General. He was a famous Clone War hero who had the Chancellor's favor. After killing the Jedi that killed the Chancellor, he absolutely would have been in a position of authority. He is voted in or takes it by force. This is the same Galactic Senate that applauded being turned into an Empire They don't care

My understanding was that Palpatine's speech was a message of the intended transition to come. It's hard for me to believe that a galactic government would officially turn completely into an empire overnight immediately after that speech (and entirely because of it).

The fact Vader even allows Luke to live shows his inner conflict for me. Why would he even give Palpatine the chance to replace him with a younger, possibly stronger apprentice who doesn't need a suit to survive?

You answered your own question when you wrote:

I mean, Vader himself planned to overthrow him with Luke

To overthrow Palps and take over himself, Vader would first need Luke on the dark side. As he knows first hand, the Emperor is a master at that. Keeping Luke alive was in Vader's self interests. He had a powerful son who might be loyal enough to help Vader ascend to the Emperor's throne. So, it was initially a sinister scheme rather than an act of mercy due to some kind of conflicted soul.

He was always conflicted because of Padme. Always in pain. The light that was still in him was that of Padme's memory. His redemption began the moment she died. He just needed someone to spark it... and eventually that spark was the realization that he had a son.

I take the opposite view. To me, Padme's death is what would've turned Anakin fully to the dark side. Something has to explain what made Vader so evil in the OT after having been a good man once. Anger and lust for power is what was shown. So what caused that? The loss of Padme would lead to anger; anger to hate; hate to full-on dark side and thirst for more power.

The important thing about any interpretation is reconciling it with what we see on screen. In ANH, and in most of ESB, we don't see a conflicted Vader. In no way does he demonstrate one iota of mercy. He kills without needing to, tortures for pleasure, and terrorizes his subordinates. After connecting with Luke, he changes. He's noticeably different in ROTJ.

If George's intent was to portray Vader as having inner turmoil all along, it would've been easy to do that with even just a quick and subtle hint. Instead he gave us a merciless embodiment of pure evil. Then he made the PT and showed that without a Padme (or any family) to save, Anakin had nothing but anger and resentment left to fuel him. More power is what kept him going. That's how I see it.

In the OT, Vader repeatedly references the *power* of the Force. And he mentions the power of the dark side. Those repeated notes are storytelling cues to be insight into his motivation. He wasn't shown as being someone looking for an escape from the dark. Instead, he was shown to be someone who embraced it. And that's why Luke changing Vader so completely was such a big deal.

 

[a-dev]

Growing up with the OT my friends and I never interpreted the scene that way. We always saw it that Vader was *so* sick with rage after the Falcon disappeared that he was actually *too angry* to kill anyone. He couldn't speak, he couldn't do anything other than a single double take and was seething with so much anger I believe that if he started taking it out on those around him he realized that he likely wouldn't stop with Piett and might have wiped out every single man who was present on the bridge.

Hmm. Personally I never had that view. Bear in mind of course that I can't even tell you which movie I saw first, Jedi or ESB, and didn't even see ANH for the first time till '93 or thereabouts.

I just don't think there's any rage in Vader in that final scene of ESB - just sheer contemplation. He knows Luke is still alive, he's pleased about that and he knows he'll meet him again - whatever the circumstance. I don't think it even crosses his mind to kill any of his officers after the Falcon escapes - at least on this occasion. He's too immersed in replaying the Cloud City encounter with Luke in his head.

I got the impression that they all sensed it which is why every single officer (not just Piett) stopped what they were doing to see how Vader would react.

I don't think they're sensing anything, merely scared ***tless because Vader was in the habit of killing those who failed him and they had no reason to think he was going to break that habit now.

I believe this interpretation is further enforced by the first scene of ROTJ (and the very next scene that Vader appears on film after leaving the bridge of the Executor) where he tells Moff Jerjerrod that "the Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." If Vader had really softened as you suggest then his comment in ROTJ really isn't that sinister. But Jerjerrod's immediate terror at that thought and subsequent promise to double his efforts indicate that Vader still very much had the same approach to those beneath him who failed.

Jerjerrod himself even got a little example of that in a deleted scene where he and the Royal Guards once try to block Vader from disturbing the Emperor:

That line of dialogue could merely be interpreted as Vader exploiting his own earned reputation. It absolutely would come across as sinister to Jerjerrod regardless if Vader had softened since the events of ESB.

All this said, I'm not suggesting that Vader ever consciously said to himself ''I'll never again force choke an officer to death''...but things played out like they did in ROTJ....aaaand it doesn't bother me that he wasn't going around killing people.

 

[JAWS]

I just don't think there's any rage in Vader in that final scene of ESB - just sheer contemplation. He knows Luke is still alive, he's pleased about that and he knows he'll meet him again - whatever the circumstance. I don't think it even crosses his mind to kill any of his officers after the Falcon escapes - at least on this occasion. He's too immersed in replaying the Cloud City encounter with Luke in his head.

I am with a-dev here.. I never saw it as Vader was too angry to do anything.. I saw it as Vader having feeling of what just happened and where this would all lead. It was the first time we see Vader with something besides anger. He does that double take which to me shows that there is more then just anger going on inside.

 

[JAWS]

In the rots tie in game. The final fight has various cut scenes that have obiwan and anakin arguing . It?s not perfect but it makes more sense for obiwan to beg anakin to come back instead of keeping silent the whole time. I was surprised the game executed it better

https://youtu.be/0neuLfXrmPM

Skip to 40:03

Yeah I don't remember that game at all.

Some back and forth between Obi Wan and Anakin would have been nice. Would have helped the scene dramatically for sure.

 

[JAWS]

Huh? Rey abd kylo relationship was horrible. I felt no connection or anything between those two. Just constant fighting and bickering to finally working together . Poorly developed

Maybe its because I liked Kylo's character so much and I wanted him to come back to the light.. I seriously was not sure if he would. I mean he killed Han Solo. Would the audience find that forgivable? So I thought maybe there was a chance.. Mind you this is before I found out the Emperor was going to be in TROS. All the drama of that left at that moment

But I liked what we saw. As I said it was like an extended version of what Luke and his father went through. I thought it played just fine and feel that their relationship as two enemies who both felt they were on the right side wanted the other to join them. Ben saw the dark in Rey and Rey saw the light in Ben.. It worked for me.. Obviously

But I said if you hate the films then nothing is going to save it for you. I just thought it was more interesting relationship then Obi Wan and Anakin.. Rey and Kylo were never meant to be best friends and should have never been thought of as lovers (so stupid). I can see how their might be an attraction since they are make and female but its was stupid to add that kiss. I just felt what that relationship was was don't well. I never got the sense that Obi Wan and Anakin were that close other then what I mentioned before and for me that hurt the final duel.

Don't worry I always had trouble buying into Luke caring for Vader.. But I could at least always see where Vader was coming from.

 

[jye4ever]

Hmm. Personally I never had that view. Bear in mind of course that I can't even tell you which movie I saw first, Jedi or ESB, and didn't even see ANH for the first time till '93 or thereabouts.

I just don't think there's any rage in Vader in that final scene of ESB - just sheer contemplation. He knows Luke is still alive, he's pleased about that and he knows he'll meet him again - whatever the circumstance. I don't think it even crosses his mind to kill any of his officers after the Falcon escapes - at least on this occasion. He's too immersed in replaying the Cloud City encounter with Luke in his head.



I don't think they're sensing anything, merely scared ***tless because Vader was in the habit of killing those who failed him and they had no reason to think he was going to break that habit now.



That line of dialogue could merely be interpreted as Vader exploiting his own earned reputation. It absolutely would come across as sinister to Jerjerrod regardless if Vader had softened since the events of ESB.

All this said, I'm not suggesting that Vader ever consciously said to himself ''I'll never again force choke an officer to death''...but things played out like they did in ROTJ....aaaand it doesn't bother me that he wasn't going around killing people.

View attachment 484789

If any of the officers wanted to stop Vader dead in his tracks from force choking them all they had to do was whip out a framed photo of Ashoka and hold it up to him.

Framed photo of Padme = More Choking

Framed photo of Ashoka = Less Choking


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JAWS]

Some of like the ST more then the PT and some of us like the PT more then the ST.


Can we all just admit that ?The Predator? is worse then all of them

Talk about a film trying to ruin what came before.

I revisited it for the first time since the theaters. Yuck.

 

[jye4ever]

I saw 2 minutes that was enough lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Khev]

Hmm. Personally I never had that view. Bear in mind of course that I can't even tell you which movie I saw first, Jedi or ESB, and didn't even see ANH for the first time till '93 or thereabouts.

I just don't think there's any rage in Vader in that final scene of ESB - just sheer contemplation. He knows Luke is still alive, he's pleased about that and he knows he'll meet him again - whatever the circumstance. I don't think it even crosses his mind to kill any of his officers after the Falcon escapes - at least on this occasion. He's too immersed in replaying the Cloud City encounter with Luke in his head.

Not uncontrolled rage, more like a zen state of transcendent fury, lol. I agree that he'd just been through the emotional wringer, where I disagree is on whether it softened him as a result. I don't think it did. I think any conflict he had about killing/not killing extended to Luke alone and no one else.

To me his quiet exit from the bridge just showed him in a state where he was so beyond being angry at the situation after all he had done to capture and convince Luke that he basically just checked out mentally in that moment. Kind of like Leia's reaction that final time the hyperdrive failed before R2 turned it on. She had been freaking out and lashing out at Han the whole movie and then when it wouldn't work that one last time she was just over it to the point where she too couldn't bother to yell at or scold Lando, she was just done and slumped silently into the chair.

Anyway at the end of the day we're talking about what a guy was feeling who was completely enclosed in a mask and said no words so your interpretation is certainly as good as mine.

 

[jye4ever]

Not uncontrolled rage, more like a zen state of transcendent fury, lol. I agree that he'd just been through the emotional wringer, where I disagree is on whether it softened him as a result. I don't think it did. I think any conflict he had about killing/not killing extended to Luke alone and no one else.

To me his quiet exit from the bridge just showed him in a state where he was so beyond being angry at the situation after all he had done to capture and convince Luke that he basically just checked out mentally in that moment. Kind of like Leia's reaction that final time the hyperdrive failed before R2 turned it on. She had been freaking out and lashing out at Han the whole movie and then when it wouldn't work that one last time she was just over it to the point where she too couldn't bother to yell at or scold Lando, she was just done and slumped silently into the chair.

Anyway at the end of the day we're talking about what a guy was feeling who was completely enclosed in a mask and said no words so your interpretation is certainly as good as mine.

I 100% firmly believe he was conflicted over Ashoka during the RO hallway scene, Antilles, Motti, Ozzell and Needa lol


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[Khev]

Yeah and when he saw little Gareth running to that giant lever it reminded him of when he and Kitster were running to the lemonade stand which is why he paused and let him live, lol.