Star Wars: The Acolyte

[Dave_W]

I am zeroing in on this part right here because I think this quote is at the root of my misunderstanding.

How does this cast come at the expense of quality? Even as a knee-jerk irrational concern, I do not understand the connection. The story will be the story, no matter who was cast or their backgrounds.

If Rey had been switched to a male character, that would not suddenly make JJ Abrams a better writer. If Reva had been white, the OWK show would still be complete and utter trash.

To assume that a lack of white men telegraphs a worse story is to imply that more white men would have improved these things, which is bonkers to me! They would remain the same disappointing stories.

The thinking is that the casts skin colour is at the forefront of the creative process which means that the writing comes second, which leads to an inferior product.

It's nonsense of course, Disney makes average content, IMO, regardless of the cast.

 

[chrisstbh]

At what point did I say this? Clearly you didn't read my comments as they are written, only as they way you wanted to hear them.

Please point out exactly where I said that or even implied that.

Holy cow - what a world we live in...

If.

 

[Mandible]

To assume that a lack of white men telegraphs a worse story is to imply that more white men would have improved these things, which is bonkers to me! They would remain the same disappointing stories.

If that comment is aimed at me, I didn't say that - it was stated the cast was a healthy mix - a healthy mix is an evenly spread; women, men, race - everything. That photo/cast is not evenly spread - but that's what they wanted from the very inception of the show. Representation was first and foremost above everything else, so they've made the show they wanted.

At the end of the day, actions will speak louder than words and if it's a masterpiece that blows everyone's mind, representation will be the last thing anyone will be talking about.

 

[Dave_W]

If that comment is aimed at me, I didn't say that - it was stated the cast was a healthy mix - a healthy mix is an evenly spread; women, men, race - everything. That photo/cast is not evenly spread - but that's what they wanted from the very inception of the show. Representation was first and foremost above everything else, so they've made the show they wanted.

At the end of the day, actions will speak louder than words and if it's a masterpiece that blows everyone's mind, representation will be the last thing anyone will be talking about.

There are men women, kids, asians black and white. What isn't evenly spread?

 

[Mandible]

Eastern culture is different to western, I don't care about it

That's not a very inclusive, accepting, tolerant, thing to say.

 

[TheClient]

Representation was first and foremost above everything else, so they've made the show they wanted.

My comment was not aimed at you, specifically. It was in reply to jaztermareal’s attempt at explaining the perception (not that they share it) that a diverse cast may signal a worse story.

Which I am still very confused by. For example, your quote above. Where does this idea come from, that representation in the cast will somehow divert finite resources from the writing process? I really am struggling to understand the connection!

What evidence is there that diversity was “first and foremost” at the expense of everything else in this production? Citation needed.

 

[jaztermareal]

My comment was not aimed at you, specifically. It was in reply to jaztermareal’s attempt at explaining the perception (not that they share it) that a diverse cast may signal a worse story.

Which I am still very confused by. For example, your quote above. Where does this idea come from, that representation in the cast will somehow divert finite resources from the writing process? I really am struggling to understand the connection!

What evidence is there that diversity was “first and foremost” at the expense of everything else in this production? Citation needed.

as I understand it, the idea is that when creators are focusing efforts on ticking boxes they aren't approaching with a story first mindset nor are they approaching casting from a meritocratic standpoint. It also goes hand in hand with ideology that effects the writing, such as desire to include certain themes or scenes whether they make sense for the story/fictional universe or not. The knock on effects result in an overall inferior product. Now, that is not to say there is a causal factor but rather it is seen as a symptom of a wider problem and so considered a red-flag. There are obvious exceptions and no one complains if the result is good (Andor cast very diverse yet is the best show made under Disney, Rogue One quite good, also diverse, my fave movie contender Predestination has trans main character etc) but the pattern that has been emerging with bad and lazy content is that pandering is used in place of good writing to appeal to certain demographics or the diversity in front or behind the camera is highlighted as somehow amazing and used as a shield against criticism, with the accusation that people who do not like product must be sexist etc (as happened with Kenobi show).

 

[jye4ever]

My comment was not aimed at you, specifically. It was in reply to jaztermareal’s attempt at explaining the perception (not that they share it) that a diverse cast may signal a worse story.

Which I am still very confused by. For example, your quote above. Where does this idea come from, that representation in the cast will somehow divert finite resources from the writing process? I really am struggling to understand the connection!

What evidence is there that diversity was “first and foremost” at the expense of everything else in this production? Citation needed.

Disney

Nuff Said

Would you like just ONE example..

Leslie Hedlund just said this week that her main priority from the very beginning was that her main character had to revolve around writing for a black woman and mandated that other black women had to be in the writers room to give primary advise every step of the way on the character creation.

From the horses mouth to your ears go look it up.

That is NOT how you create compelling characters and world building.

When Lucas wrote from Joseph Campbell’s hero journey themes his first thought wasn’t to create a story based soley on the color of the actors skin it was about the heroes journey.

She literally said the genesis of every fiber of her story and character creation revolved around a black women being the starting point of everything.

That’s what mattered the color of her skin.

But sure there’s no forced anything no agenda we must just be misunderstanding the optics lol

Story last.

Skin color first.

All they’re accomplishing is labeling and putting people in their corners separating everyone from one another and not bringing people together and creating crappy stories no less while doing it.

 

[Mandible]

My comment was not aimed at you, specifically. It was in reply to jaztermareal’s attempt at explaining the perception (not that they share it) that a diverse cast may signal a worse story.

Which I am still very confused by. For example, your quote above. Where does this idea come from, that representation in the cast will somehow divert finite resources from the writing process? I really am struggling to understand the connection!

What evidence is there that diversity was “first and foremost” at the expense of everything else in this production? Citation needed.

In the plethora of interviews Hedland and the cast have done. That's their main talking point above everything else; representation and inclusion.

I always thought the script was the most important thing, but each to their own I guess (hence why my favorite film in the last 29 years is Godzilla Minus One).

 

[Khev]

At what point did I say this? Clearly you didn't read my comments as they are written, only as they way you wanted to hear them.

Please point out exactly where I said that or even implied that.

Holy cow - what a world we live in...

Never waste time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you.

 

[Mandible]

There is a serious lack of innovation in Hollywood. The reliance on old franchises makes it clear; the constant rebooting of material every few years demonstrates that Hollywood is not run by people who love movies anymore.

The part I find most amusing is how they love to say how much they hate the past, yet they're unable to make anything but IP's from the past

 

[TheClient]

Disney

Nuff Said

Would you like just ONE example..

Leslie Hedlund just said this week that her main priority from the very beginning was that her main character had to revolve around writing for a black woman and mandated that other black women had to be in the writers room to give primary advise every step of the way on the character creation.

From the horses mouth to your ears go look it up.

That is NOT how you create compelling characters and world building.

When Lucas wrote from Joseph Campbell’s hero journey themes his first thought wasn’t to create a story based soley on the color of the actors skin it was about the heroes journey.

She literally said the genesis of every fiber of her story and character creation revolved around a black women being the starting point of everything.

That’s what mattered the color of her skin.

But sure there’s no forced anything no agenda we must just be misunderstanding the optics lol

Story last.

Skin color first.

All they’re accomplishing is labeling and putting people in their corners separating everyone from one another and not bringing people together and creating crappy stories no less while doing it.

Cannot find that comment yet, will keep looking.

No, I am not going to google “leslye headland diversity black woman” because then I’ll get nothing but angry youtube grifters.

 

[TheClient]

as I understand it, the idea is that when creators are focusing efforts on ticking boxes they aren't approaching with a story first mindset nor are they approaching casting from a meritocratic standpoint. It also goes hand in hand with ideology that effects the writing, such as desire to include certain themes or scenes whether they make sense for the story/fictional universe or not. The knock on effects result in an overall inferior product. Now, that is not to say there is a causal factor but rather it is seen as a symptom of a wider problem and so considered a red-flag. There are obvious exceptions and no one complains if the result is good (Andor cast very diverse yet is the best show made under Disney, Rogue One quite good, also diverse, my fave movie contender Predestination has trans main character etc) but the pattern that has been emerging with bad and lazy content is that pandering is used in place of good writing to appeal to certain demographics or the diversity in front or behind the camera is highlighted as somehow amazing and used as a shield against criticism, with the accusation that people who do not like product must be sexist etc (as happened with Kenobi show).

So is the inverse true? Does more white people in the cast equal more optimism from us fans?

Do we not see how terrible that sounds?

 

[TheClient]

Also, I have no idea why people are feeling attacked by Lucasfilm’s pushback against Kenobi criticism.

I certainly never felt attacked, and I thought Kenobi was a garbage show. End to end. I never singled out Reva as a special problem, the entire show was trash! Every part!

So I knew they were not talking about me.

 

[xipotec]

Personally, I'm pretty much just anti-Disney at this point. They hate "me" and have no problem letting their directors and cast prove that on Social Media every time their **** fails.

I've no reason to offer interest in a company that considers me a deplorable, racist, homophobe.

They could buy up the rest of the franchises I loved as a kid, and I'd never give those films the time of day now. Idc wtf it is.

Burn it all to ash. Idc anymore.

I'm not supporting a company that has absolutely no qualms in publicly saying "you're the problem", when I WAS a paying customer/fan.

I'm stupid but I ain't ****** stupid.

Dramatic much?

 

[jye4ever]

Cannot find that comment yet, will keep looking.

No, I am not going to google “leslye headland diversity black woman” because then I’ll get nothing but angry youtube grifters.

Watch any of the youtube influencers that were at the Acolyte round table with Lucasfilm they all mentioned that…

Here want proof here is just one example…

Go to 15:15 mark

Enjoy lol

 

[xipotec]

That's a false analogy. People treat food and media differently. If fans approached franchises in that way there wouldn't be any fandoms at all. I can't think of a single popular franchise that doesn't have its share of terrible movies/shows (Star Wars, Star Trek, Terminator, Alien, Dune, Indiana Jones, anime, the list goes on and on).
Being a Star Wars fan, you gotta take the good with the bad. The series has been flawed for 40+ years, far longer than I've even been alive. I'm willing to give anything Star Wars a chance because the highs often outweigh the lows and I appreciate the universe overall. I'm not going into Acolyte with many expectations, so it could definitely surprise me the way Andor did. If I don't like it, I'll just move on.

People still love Indiana Jones and Aliens. And they are really way more bad than good at this point.

 

[Dave_W]

That's not a very inclusive, accepting, tolerant, thing to say.

Yeah, yeah. Minding my own business and letting other cultures do their own thing is so intolerant.

 

[xipotec]

So is the inverse true? Does more white people in the cast equal more optimism from us fans?

Do we not see how terrible that sounds?

This is a symptom of society now, hate based on literally knowing nothing, aside from outward appearances, but basing all opinions on it.

I am all for not liking something , ONCE I HAVE engaged and listened and digested it as a whole, but the unmitigated hate based a pretty much nothing is just typical of our culture today. Hate binds people together . Mostly in an ignorant and stupid way and almost never for a good outcome. This forum has a whole swath of people who's entire posting history is pre conceived notions and unparalleled hate based on mostly bias and very little knowledge.

Does this look good to me ? No not really, but I will reserved judgement based on how it actually TURNS OUT. Not by my preconceived notions or prejudices on it.

Granted, I am more forgiving of content, not stuck comparing things endlessly to a standard I set when I was a kid, life gonna be a crappy run if you hold everything to some high standard you made as a child.

I personally have found something to like about most of the new content, (plenty to laugh at and deride also) but overall, remembering that this type of content was NON EXISTENT, for much of my life, I am happy to have it and enjoy what's good.

It's funny cause I still remember well the hate and ball busting surrounding Rouge One, it's the same now with every Disney show, all bluster and hate all day, but after we actually get some great content, everyone pretends they were all for it from the start. RO had the "uneeded story", "female lead" "inclusion only" nonsense before it as well ......and it's one of the best SW film made.

But let's be honest people that live to pre judge stuff based on obvious internally held beliefs , are never gonna be open minds and reserve judgement, they literally can't .....they are programmed that way.

So I'll wait to see this, then judge. I will admit SW fatigue is setting in for me, even though I am glad for more content. There have been a lot of great new shows for my tastes , so there is real competition for my limited viewing time.

 

[loki2371]

What happened to the the Creative process? It is gone and non existent. Why everything today is garbage. A movie/TV pitch no longer starts with an idea. It starts with the race/gender of the main character/protagonist and is then built around that ideal. You don't pitch a story, you pitch a diverse lead and cast. Story is second. "Lets make a diverse/female centric show. And hire an inexperienced LGBTQ+ writer/director to write that show". That was the beginning of the Acolyte. Not "Let's make a story for the fans that show an earlier period/time of the Jedi Order".

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, there was a time when a writer(s) would sit down with pen & paper/in front of their laptop and create a story, with perhaps a theme or moral to tell. They would hash it out with numerous rewrites and consult other writers/friends to give opinions. Then when they were happy and it was complete, they would try to sell it. And if bought/picked up and put into production, a casting director or team would audition hundreds/thousands of people to find the perfect person to fill each role. The best person for way the character/role was written. And if that person be diverse, white, male, female, whatever, they looked for the actor that could lead and fill the role and sell the story/character to the masses. Today the story is specifically written with diversity at the forefront, and at times they even cast first, then adapt a story to fit a diverse cast.

This process no longer exists. This is the problem. Not the diverse cast or male/female representation. STORY is second.. Kathleen Kennedy in a recent interview about the show talked about how Hedlands script brought her to tears. She then told her she MUST put more of herself and life experiences into the story. She literally told her to change it as to represent herself better.

Members on here are trying to explain why they are unhappy, and where the problem/disconnect lies. But other members want to keep bringing up the ists/phobes and anti this... They refuse to actually listen.