Star Wars: The Force Awakens (12/18/15)

[morphosis]

How to communicate post mortem is something that has to be learned. At least, this is how I understood it. It's not something Jedi's are able to do automatically.

At the end of Ep III is when Yoda says this to Obi Wan.

That and Kylo isn't a Jedi nor a Sith Lord. He still in training. Plus he's a headcase. He can't control his powers yet.

 

[RIDDICK]

Seriously, she's ****in' creepy.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Teach me, Luke!! Teach me everything!!

 

[Star Puffs]

I am trying to think why its so wrong that she refused to be the damsel in distress?

That's the binary thinking I'm arguing against. No one is saying that she has to be a damsel-in-distress, rather those critical of Rey are saying some vulnerability and character flaws are part of what makes a fully realized character. Strong Female Characters are a stock character that fails to reach that higher level of character development. Stock characters are fine as far as they go, but they don’t befit a lead role.

My reaction was pointing out the flaws in that original article because the author accepted Luke "earning" his powers with less training than Rey,

That’s simply not true. We are not privy to Rey having any formal training whatsoever. She has a vision when she touches the lightsaber. You’re justifying her portrayal with things that could possibly be true in the context of her life on Jakkuu, but that Abrams failed to sell as part of mishandling basic background and character development through out the film.

Lucas did a better job with Luke. ANH is actually a superb example of concise world-building, whatever the unrealistic time compression. Ben overtly trains Luke and directly assists him in the attack on the Death Star. Luke makes explicitly clear he has piloting experience in conditions similar to the Death Star trench. Luke has another bout of formal training with Yoda, before fighting Vader, who thrashes him. Rey’s story is essentially skipping Ben, Yoda, and the years between ESB and RotJ, proceeding straight to successful Jedi mind control and defeating a Sith. She violates Campbell’s hero’s journey that is at the heart of Luke’s saga, which is why she rings false irrespective of gender.

and i quote from the article: "she continues to foster a mindset that is damaging to real-world women succeeding in historically masculine roles."

That is an extremely sexist thing to say. So no woman should be able to succeed to be the leading hero because the leading hero is meant only for men? Thats the definition of sexism.

The notion Lindsay is saying “no woman” can be a hero is a absurd. The author anticipates and mocks that denunciation because she knows what to expect when challenging the orthodox view.

Secondly, lead hero in an action-oriented story is a “historically masculine role.” Even having women-in-arms as secondary characters is very rare in fictional story-telling before WWII.

In the quote you cite, she’s criticizing the Strong Female Character archtype for generally not having negative personality traits, as a real people exhibit, and more importantly, not being allowed to fail in a meaningful way. She’s criticizing the idealization of women, generally by male writers. I fully agree with her diagnosis with respect to TFA, which is backed by social psychology research into how women on average handle failure compared to men.

 

[morphosis]

That's the binary thinking I'm arguing against. No one is saying that she has to be a damsel-in-distress, rather those critical of Rey are saying some vulnerability and character flaws are part of what makes a fully realized character. Strong Female Characters are a stock character that fails to reach that higher level of character development. Stock characters are fine as far as they go, but they don’t befit a lead role.




That’s simply not true. We are not privy to Rey having any formal training whatsoever. She has a vision when she touches the lightsaber. You’re justifying her portrayal with things that could possibly be true in the context of her life on Jakkuu, but that Abrams failed to sell as part of mishandling basic background and character development through out the film.

Lucas did a better job with Luke. ANH is actually a superb example of concise world-building, whatever the unrealistic time compression. Ben overtly trains Luke and directly assists him in the attack on the Death Star. Luke makes explicitly clear he has piloting experience in conditions similar to the Death Star trench. Luke has another bout of formal training with Yoda, before fighting Vader, who thrashes him. Rey’s story is essentially skipping Ben, Yoda, and the years between ESB and RotJ, proceeding straight to successful Jedi mind control and defeating a Sith. She violates Campbell’s hero’s journey that is at the heart of Luke’s saga, which is why she rings false irrespective of gender.



The notion Lindsay is saying “no woman” can be a hero is a absurd. The author anticipates and mocks that denunciation because she knows what to expect when challenging the orthodox view.

Secondly, lead hero in an action-oriented story is a “historically masculine role.” Even having women-in-arms as secondary characters is very rare in fictional story-telling before WWII.

In the quote you cite, she’s criticizing the Strong Female Character archtype for generally not having negative personality traits, as a real people exhibit, and more importantly, not being allowed to fail in a meaningful way. She’s criticizing the idealization of women, generally by male writers. I fully agree with her diagnosis with respect to TFA, which is backed by social psychology research into how women on average handle failure compared to men.

Thats fine. Ill respectfully disagree about Rey and the article. I don't buy the argument that Rey has no flaws, because she's clearly a character working through abandonment issues. her whole story arc is about learning to let go of the past and look toward the future, and learning to trust other people. And she earned her victories and had failures jalong the way just as much as Luke did in ANH. Not sure how Luke earned his more than Rey? They both lost their family, they both lost a friend ObiWan and Han, and Finn, her friend, was severely hurt too. She almost lost the fight with Kylo, but remembered the Force right before she fell off the cliff. Luke had to be told by ObiWan to think about the Force before making the shot. She remembered it on her own after Maz she learned about the Force from Maz. There are a lot of parallels, but people tend to discredit Rey because she's female. And thats what i think that article is doing. The author I know doesn't want to say that, but when you look at the details of Luke and Rey, there are a lot of similarities.

but it is what it is. Totally cool you support the article.

 

[plasticcrapmoneywaster]

.......After watching Rogue One and rewatching The Force Awakens over the weekend I can now safely say I hope Lucasfilm files a restraining order against Abrams and Pegg.

 

[Captain Clown]

The Force ghost of old Anakin is not Darth Vader. It'd actually make for a better narrative where Kylo struggles between Soap-creame leader Spook (Demon) and Anakin's ghost (Angel).

I just mean that since Kylo refers to Darth as his grandfather, he might be able to be deter him from being Snoke's errand boy anymore if he told him to get out of there.
But yeah, since Kylo may not be able to recognize him because he wouldn't be Darth Vader anymore, I'm not sure how that would work.

I really like the idea for the conflict between Snoke and Anakin though, it would add some weight to Kylo's "struggles". They'll probably try fleshing out his backstory in episode VIII. I want to see what happened to him as Luke's apprentice.

 

[RIDDICK]

I'm not sure how that would work.

 

[Captain Clown]

Perfect.

 

[morphosis]

View attachment 311324

I just mean that since Kylo refers to Darth as his grandfather, he might be able to be deter him from being Snoke's errand boy anymore if he told him to get out of there.
But yeah, since Kylo may not be able to recognize him because he wouldn't be Darth Vader anymore, I'm not sure how that would work.

I really like the idea for the conflict between Snoke and Anakin though, it would add some weight to Kylo's "struggles". They'll probably try fleshing out his backstory in episode VIII. I want to see what happened to him as Luke's apprentice.

Well remember Kylo is not a Jedi and not Light sider, and Snoke is a Dark Side user. Only Light Siders can see Light Side Force Spirits. And since Anakin is the Light Side, Kylo wont be able to see him. Vader is gone, there is no more Vader so he cannot talk to Vader because Anakin changed to the Light Side when he died.

Snoke wouldn't see Anakin, Obi-Wan or Yoda since he is a Dark Side user.

Plus Snoke is teaching Kylo new ways to use the Force. He is teaching him to use both the Light and the Dark Side to find a more powerful balance. Will he be able to see force ghosts then? Not sure?

Some Ancient Siths were able to become spirits, but its not clear if the dark side spirits work the same way as light side spirits.

Snoke is also teaching Kylo to not be like Vader. To get beyond Vader, he needs to kill his father, Han. They blame Luke for the seduction of Vader, they don't blame Vader. So Kylo wants to fulfill Vader's destiny, kill Luke, and rule the Galaxy with Snoke and the First Order. Thats what he is being taught by Snoke.

 

[Prime Clone]

Wasn't there meant to be an "angel/devil on his shoulder" sequence featuring spirits of Anakin and Vader? Was that intended for Ep VII or VIII?

Disney now has two successful, but safe, SW films that haven't really brought anything new to the table. But it can't trade on nostalgia forever. I predict Ep VIII will be more adventurous and therefore more divisive, just like the prequels.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Disney now has two successful, but safe, SW films ....

You think Rogue One is "safe"? Is that because of the callbacks, especially Vader and Tarkin?

On that level, I agree, they did assure interest by adding Vader. But the movie itself seems anything but safe for Star Wars: bleak, dark and no one lives.

 

[Prime Clone]

The fact it showed the Empire and Rebellion immediately pre-ANH made it fan service. I agree it was courageous to kill everyone off, but since it led straight into ANH it didn't really matter. They were The Expendables!

 

[Wor-Gar]

Well I hope RO does well and keeps its legs because if it is viewed as a disappointing experiment then we'll be left with even more unoriginal and uninspired fair like TFA.

 

[Captain Clown]

Well I hope RO does well and keeps its legs because if it is viewed as a disappointing experiment then we'll be left with even more unoriginal and uninspired fair like TFA.

This.

I want to support RO as much as I can so Disney can see it's what we want. I genuinely enjoyed it a bunch, and I'd be perfectly happy if the new episodes follow suit. TFA was very "Hollywood".

 

[Khev]

I want RO to succeed as well. I greatly appreciate it's slow burn to the finale, which is very ANH-ish, and not something I thought we were likely to see on screen again.

 

[morphosis]

RO is a success, so I wouldn't worry. the reviews have been great and it already passed its production budget after a week. Its not going to make TFA money because its PG13, but it will probably be in the 800M-1B+ range. Its not going to beat TFA in merch sales either, but I dont think that matters. They know the fans love RO. Its not exactly a merch friendly movie like TFA because of BB8, Kylo, and Rey were so popular with young kids and also adults.

I also think we needed TFA for a lot of reasons that most overlook. The Prequels for the most part didnt have success and a lot of people are very negative about them. I think we needed TFA as a starting point to say we need to get this back on track and feel like the old Star Wars. They needed to bring in a very young audience, especially young girls, so they can relate and love it like some us did with the originals when we were like 6-10 years old.

I think VIII will be darker and more sophisticated, but i loved TFA for bringing the magic back to SW. It had some similarities to ANH, but i think that helped introduce SW again to a lot of people, especially the young ones, which is a good thing.

 

[TonTon]

TFA was PG-13 too.

 

[spindrift]

Well I hope RO does well and keeps its legs because if it is viewed as a disappointing experiment then we'll be left with even more unoriginal and uninspired fair like TFA.

I think it's performance is below what Disney had hoped- next two weeks will tell it's legs. I think this will be a one off film and we gert the template back soon enough and that's too bad

 

[Khev]

I don't think they're even trying to hit TFA merch numbers, and rightly so. There are a number of new RO toys and Legos in the toy aisle but not even close to the peripheral amount of merchandise that we saw with TFA. Even walking through Target the other day most of the SW backpacks, bags, cups, etc., were all still TFA and virtually nothing from RO. Which I think is smart. They are recognizing that TFA was a unique "event" and that RO's subject matter probably makes it less of a merch friendly film.