Terminator Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

There's only one thing that makes me doubt this interpretation and that is that in a deleted part of the script Sarah was supposed to ask ''are you afraid?'' and he was to respond ''yes''...apparently. That would have been awful IMO - and it seems it's the direction they're taking it with T:Genisys. However I'd love to ask Cameron what his true intention was at the end of T2.

I think Cameron probably went back and forth as to how "emotional" he should make the Terminator and probably put both versions down on paper to see how he felt it would play out. I think he just ultimately decided that Terminators = no true emotions was the way to go, even if it was scripted one way and he had a last minute burst of inspiration that changed it.

And I agree that Sarah's monologue at the end, while preachy and clearly the "voice of Cameron," should still be taken in the context of Sarah's character. She clearly nodded to him and offered her hand in true gratitude and appreciation. Heck she got pretty attached to him while watching him goof off with John at Enrique's camp. But as hard as she became I think she still had a sentimental core and really wanted to believe that the Terminator was "dad material." He wasn't and on an intellectual level she acknowledged that, but that didn't prevent her from getting emotionally attached.

So I don't think her final speech rings hollow as a result, you just have to take it as, "if a killing machine with no capacity to truly love can be re-purposed for good, shouldn't it be easier to re-purpose bad human behavior also?" That's basically what I take Sarah to have said but "in her own words."

And regarding Enrique's camp. The thumbs up between John and Arnold was pretty brilliant. When John teaches him "Hasta la vista baby," you just know he's going to say it later (even if you missed it in the trailers) but the thumbs up just seems to be part of the little high five exchange, not in your face due to the fact that you don't actually hear any of John and Arnold's exchange on account of it taking place during Sarah's voice-over. As a result when Arnold does it at the end you don't expect it, but are immediately taken back to that one moment of tranquility that the robot shared with the boy.

Pretty amazing that Cameron pulled off something so sentimental and "cheesy" in the midst of an action packed thrill ride. You'd think that'd be fodder for ridicule but it isn't. Everyone loves the thumbs up.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

If you compartmentalize T2 from the T1 narrative you still can't find things to appreciate? Come on now.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

I always loved that moment from the steel mill fight when Arnie unloads his pistol into the T-1000's gut, then headbutts him, then flings him into a wall, pummels him into the wall, flings him off another wall, then the T-1000 morphs through its own back, then Arnie punches through its face, which turns into its hand. Man, that fight is still the dog's bollocks,

 

[cmiller99]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

And that's why even in all of my "bashing" I've never been able to write this movie off. When I saw T2 opening night in the theater I didn't know that Patrick was the villain either since I deliberately avoided the trailers. It was one of the most amazing twists I'd ever seen in a movie.

That's one of the most interesting things of all - that if you showed both T1 and T2 to a person who had never heard of Schwarzenegger or Terminator, they wouldn't know who the hero or villain of BOTH movies were until they make their move.

 

[Plastic Bateman]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

That's one of the most interesting things of all - that if you showed both T1 and T2 to a person who had never heard of Schwarzenegger or Terminator, they wouldn't know who the hero or villain of BOTH movies were until they make their move.

That's true to an extent, but I'd think Arnold shrugging off getting stabbed then punching clean through someone's torso in the first ten minutes of T1 might give the game away a little.

The way Kyle stalks her up to the Tech Noir scene does keep things a little ambiguous though.

 

[YankeesFanboy]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

Spoiler

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

Or Reese was unwilling or incapable of ascribing emotions to the enemy, as in any war.

Also very plausible. But I think in this case it would be slightly more likely that he was never in a position to witness a Terminator at such a level of infiltration that it was learning to feel human emotions. So I'd say he simply didn't know it was even possible - if it were possible. Ultimately though I'm not sure an artificial intelligence would 'feel' emotion - only have an ability to recognise what those emotions are and to recognise the patterns of circumstances that elicit those emotions in humans. Accordingly with their programming they can modify their own behaviour and expressions to suit the circumstance - either to help meet their ultimate objective - for example 'must protect John' - sound really earnest when you tell him to ''GO! NOW!'' for greatest effect, or merely to be a better infiltrator like the T-1000's ability to sound very amiable and friendly when he's talking to the Voights.

I think Cameron probably went back and forth as to how "emotional" he should make the Terminator and probably put both versions down on paper to see how he felt it would play out. I think he just ultimately decided that Terminators = no true emotions was the way to go, even if it was scripted one way and he had a last minute burst of inspiration that changed it.

And I agree that Sarah's monologue at the end, while preachy and clearly the "voice of Cameron," should still be taken in the context of Sarah's character. She clearly nodded to him and offered her hand in true gratitude and appreciation. Heck she got pretty attached to him while watching him goof off with John at Enrique's camp. But as hard as she became I think she still had a sentimental core and really wanted to believe that the Terminator was "dad material." He wasn't and on an intellectual level she acknowledged that, but that didn't prevent her from getting emotionally attached.

So I don't think her final speech rings hollow as a result, you just have to take it as, "if a killing machine with no capacity to truly love can be re-purposed for good, shouldn't it be easier to re-purpose bad human behavior also?" That's basically what I take Sarah to have said but "in her own words."

And regarding Enrique's camp. The thumbs up between John and Arnold was pretty brilliant. When John teaches him "Hasta la vista baby," you just know he's going to say it later (even if you missed it in the trailers) but the thumbs up just seems to be part of the little high five exchange, not in your face due to the fact that you don't actually hear any of John and Arnold's exchange on account of it taking place during Sarah's voice-over. As a result when Arnold does it at the end you don't expect it, but are immediately taken back to that one moment of tranquility that the robot shared with the boy.

Pretty amazing that Cameron pulled off something so sentimental and "cheesy" in the midst of an action packed thrill ride. You'd think that'd be fodder for ridicule but it isn't. Everyone loves the thumbs up.

Indeed sir. I think people can be afraid to admit that a movie that makes them ''feel'' something is anything other than ''cheesy''. That need not be the case. Maybe it really was just a great movie. T2 is a write-off only if it blatantly contradicts the first film, or is such a major departure in tone, characterisation and standard of dialogue that you can't even believe it's based in the same universe. I feel it isn't any of these things and so this -

If you compartmentalize T2 from the T1 narrative

- isn't even necessary. They're compatible. A perfect duology. The only thing I would concede is that T1 doesn't really need T2 to be as good as it is whereas T2 is as good as it is because, if you've seen T1, then the T-800 being the protector this time is a novel twist.

I always loved that moment from the steel mill fight when Arnie unloads his pistol into the T-1000's gut, then headbutts him, then flings him into a wall, pummels him into the wall, flings him off another wall, then the T-1000 morphs through its own back, then Arnie punches through its face, which turns into its hand. Man, that fight is still the dog's bollocks,

It's sorta like comparing the lightsaber battles in the Star Wars prequels with the ones in the OT - sure, the new ones can be technically fancier, but if the overall film is crap and has completely failed to create a connection between the movie-goer and the characters involved, it matters not a jot. T3 for example had the two Terminators throwing eachother through even more walls than in T2 and using even more implements on eachother in more spectacular ways - but it was all pretty shallow in the end. No one cared.

View attachment 164046

Making T-800 emotional gives us this^ A Terminator who feels the need to verbally communicate with his enemy. Enough said.

 

[VintijDroidGutzz]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

Now if this was Neill Blomkamp's Terminator from a script by him and his District 9 co-writer, I might be legitimately excited.

Wow - indeed.

Mind blown.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

Making T-800 emotional gives us this^ A Terminator who feels the need to verbally communicate with his enemy. Enough said.

I never thought about that. The T-800 is talking to the young Terminator like it's a person, or like he would know or understand what's going on To be fair though, the T 800 in T2 was talking a lot and showing emotions by the end too, "Hasta la vista, baby," and "I need a vacation"....where did he learned that one? That sounded more like a human Arnold, than a Terminator.

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

Also very plausible. But I think in this case it would be slightly more likely that he was never in a position to witness a Terminator at such a level of infiltration that it was learning to feel human emotions. So I'd say he simply didn't know it was even possible - if it were possible. Ultimately though I'm not sure an artificial intelligence would 'feel' emotion - only have an ability to recognise what those emotions are and to recognise the patterns of circumstances that elicit those emotions in humans. Accordingly with their programming they can modify their own behaviour and expressions to suit the circumstance - either to help meet their ultimate objective - for example 'must protect John' - sound really earnest when you tell him to ''GO! NOW!'' for greatest effect, or merely to be a better infiltrator like the T-1000's ability to sound very amiable and friendly when he's talking to the Voights.

I think for T2 to really have emotional resonance it needs to play out that way, and I do believe that's what Cameron was going for. If you watch the movie and interpret it as the T-800 coming alive to the point where he is really feeling emotions then it enters Pinocchio/Short Circuit/Wall E territory and has an air of "magic" about it that is totally contrary to the rest of the on-screen universe. But if the Terminator really *can't* feel, and can only mimic feelings when tactically appropriate, then it becomes a tragic, painful story with real weight not unlike a film about any given mentally disabled person where someone loves him or her but he or she just doesn't have the capacity to "get it."

My interpretation is that Skynet uploads tons of "detailed files" regarding human behavior into the T-800's CPU's but some things that even Skynet doesn't understand (like that weird crying thing that humans do) it leaves to the Infiltrators to study and learn in the field. The Terminator asked John because he wanted to have more data regarding any necessary tactics regarding the completion of his mission. Because that's what Terminators are all about: Performing missions and employing tactics to complete those missions.

Conducting maneuvers that were "tactically dangerous" was the most alien concept imaginable. Mission. And tactics. Nothing outside of those two directives really computes. Rescuing Sarah made no sense to the T-800. Stopping her from killing Dyson made no sense to him. Suddenly it "clicked" with him when the T-1000 was destroyed that humans simply have a desire for both ideologies and individuals that transcend the performing of missions with single-minded purpose. And that's when he realized that John existed in a state of being that his "learning computer" mind could never get to. That realization was the highest state of enlightenment that any machine in Cameron's world could ever attain. Because he is a machine. He has no soul. But in that moment, you really want him to.

 

[cmiller99]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

I never thought about that. The T-800 is talking to the young Terminator like it's a person, or like he would know or understand what's going on To be fair though, the T 800 in T2 was talking a lot and showing emotions by the end too, "Hasta la vista, baby," and "I need a vacation"....where did he learned that one? That sounded more like a human Arnold, than a Terminator.

I always understood it as the T-800 "learning" about humanity from John Connor.

Which is why it makes no sense for the T-850 to do the same things in T3 - because it's a different Terminator who hasn't had the time to make that connection.

 

[cokebabies]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

Yeah that's another good one to draw attention to. However you could just take that as Sarah projecting her own emotions and sentimentality onto the T-800. Which is what I've always taken it as. Again, I'd love to know Cameron's intention there.

I don't think learning the value of human life has to equate to emotionally relating to humans. The "value" of human life can simply be data - Bob might have learned that a human life is not something that should be taken without hesitation (like with the weightlifters). But just because he learns that shooting a human is different than shooting a steel girder doesn't mean that he respects life any more.

Same with the "I know now why you cry" line - it registers to him as information he didn't have / couldn't process earlier - it just means he has a more complete "detailed file" on human interactions. But it doesn't mean anything registers with him beyond data.

 

[Invictus Sol]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

Just to throw my two cents in, I agree with Kev and a-dev that the T-800 is only mimicking human emotion at the end (and also agreed this gives the tale more impact and things to ponder about). The scene that really cements that for me is when John's hugging him and crying and he looks over John's shoulder to Sarah with eyes as cold and dead as Gus Fring. His only concern at that point is making sure Sarah's prepared to lower him into the molten steel. He is also ambivalent about his own death, which is not something I think would be possible if he was at that point feeling emotion and things like fear or self-preservation.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

All good points. Most of us seem to be in agreement on this then, not only that Uncle Bob isn't actually feeling emotion but that the movie is better for it. The added bonus being that the movie also feels more compatible with T1 when you interpret it this way - ''same model, different mission'' was a voiceover line in the trailer if memory serves.

One thing makes me wonder though - the chip reset scene in the special edition. Was it necessary? In the theatrical cut the T-800 simply says ''the more contact I have with humans, the more I learn''. Did it really need further elaboration or is there something major I'm forgetting? Seems to me nothing further needed to be explained, we could have reasoned that with a different mission that involved more human contact the T1 T-800 would have took on a bigger range of human expressions, verbal and physical like the T2 version does. I don't think any added info about learning computer switch resets needed to be entered into the equation.

Just, it kinda raises questions - he says Skynet presets the switch to ''read-only'' when they are sent out alone (on infiltration missions presumably) - it would seem this is because Skynet doesn't want it's Terminators ''doing too much thinking'' - what is ''too much thinking''? Is there some concern on Skynet's part that a Terminator could indeed be reasoned with and change sides or something? Otherwise what's the problem?

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

IMO, the special edition is not canon and only the theatrical version counts, just like Superman 2. Also, the whole switch thing...or chip resetting scene makes no sense to me. Why would Skynet give a Terminator that choice? They can switch the CPU to "read-and-write"? Why give it an option? It's a machine with a mission, that's it.

Also, Van Ling, the creative supervisor in T2, said this about that scene, "The scene had been shot in its entirety and edited in, but was ultimately deemed unnecessary to the plot and was cut for time. To explain Terminator's ability to use human expressions later in the film, a bridging line of dialogue for Terminator was added in postproduction: "The more contact I have with humans, the more I learn."

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

One thing makes me wonder though - the chip reset scene in the special edition. Was it necessary?

No and it contradicts T1. In T1 he remembers the punk saying "**** you ***hole" and repeats it to the man knocking on the door to his motel room. The T2 SE only allows John to teach him contemporary slang after his chip is reset so it's good that the scene wasn't included in the theatrical release.

 

[a-dev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

It's a funny one. It enabled a bit more drama with Sarah and John so I can see why Cameron wanted to reinstate the scene for that aspect but I think it confuses matters with regard the T-800. So what, the T1 T-800 was on 'Read-Only' and was incapable of learning how to act more human-like? What is the wisdom of limiting your infiltrator's ability to infiltrate? I mean if Cameron wanted to show Sarah's distrust of the Terminator perhaps he could have written a scene where she tries to take John and flee?

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

The only thing I liked about the extended SE scene was the ingenious use of Linda Hamilton's real life twin to pantomime what she was doing in the fake mirror.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

That idea of Sarah taking John and fleeing is pretty good. The only thing that bothers me about T2 is how much time goes by without seeing the T 1000. After the "That's a nice bike", scene, we don't see him until the end. There should have been at least one scene showing the T-1000 doing something...or maybe there was, and I forgot?

 

[Khev]

Re: Terminator: Genisys (July 1st, 2015)

After "say that's a nice bike" the next time you see the T-1000 is when he enters Dyson's home and hears the police report that Sarah and John are at Cyberdyne.