The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

[a-dev]

It's no different than a computer asking you for the correct password when you type in a wrong letter. The difference is, besides the T 800 being far more advance, the T 800 also has no choice but to follow orders, even if the "password" is in correct. So it asked twice, and ultimately followed the orders, or granted you access if it was a computer.

That made me think of this

Due to the film's lackluster performance, Dark Fate stands to lose $120 million for the film's partnered studios, including Skydance Media, Paramount Pictures and 20th Century Fox. At the film's conception, each studio had offered up 30 percent of the project's $185 million budget, with China's Tencent contributing 10 percent of the tentpole's production budget. Adding insult to injury, Dark Fate stands to lose even more money ($130 million) if the film fails to gain traction internationally.

Can't say it's surprising can we? I mean it takes a deep Khev-like analysis to find the merits in what they had - and as I said earlier I have doubts that even the writers themselves thought it through to the extent that Khev has. That's not a slight at Khev I hasten to add.

Everyone knew from the very first trailer that they'd already seen this Terminator film. And the one big surprise they had up their sleeve was an outrageous one, one that was always going to piss off at least half the fanbase irrevocably.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I'm just chiming in briefly because I can't believe this Carl storyline is okay with any Terminator fan. I just don't get it. I haven't seen DF, but knowing this "Carl" scenario is part of the plot makes me wonder if I ever should.

The whole idea of a T-800 (or any Skynet cyborg) developing feelings is completely retarded. Skynet was an advanced AI that ultimately aimed to eradicate humanity. There's no credible reason why any of its machines that were built to destroy humans would ever "evolve" in their programming to feel compassion or sympathy for humans. That makes zero sense.

Skynet's very survival depended on *getting rid of all human beings.* To believe that Skynet's AI would be flawed enough to build Terminators that could then so easily develop protective feelings for humans undermines everything established in earlier movies about Skynet's threat level and competency. They make killing machines! Those machines will only protect humans if they're *reprogrammed* to do so. Any Skynet default programming would never be so fundamentally flawed as to allow its machines to develop their own protective ambition to preserve the threat/enemy (humans).

As for the Guardian T-800 asking "why" in T2, it isn't a philosophical question he asks - it's a logistical question. A T-800 having advanced intelligence means that knowing "why" is simply an effort to gain more information in order to best assess its mission parameters. And a killing machine being ordered not to kill is something that it would seek added information/data about.

In a T-800's processor ("brain"), asking "why" after being ordered to do something completely opposite of its programming protocols is the same as it saying: "Does not compute; more data required to process new algorithm." Upon failing to attain more info (twice), the advanced machine simply complies and goes forward with less-than-optimal data. As an advanced machine, it would seek as much data as possible, but still be designed to ultimately comply with pre-programmed orders.

 

[jye4ever]

The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

I'm just chiming in briefly because I can't believe this Carl storyline is okay with any Terminator fan. I just don't get it. I haven't seen DF, but knowing this "Carl" scenario is part of the plot makes me wonder if I ever should.

The whole idea of a T-800 (or any Skynet cyborg) developing feelings is completely retarded. Skynet was an advanced AI that ultimately aimed to eradicate humanity. There's no credible reason why any of its machines that were built to destroy humans would ever "evolve" in their programming to feel compassion or sympathy for humans. That makes zero sense.

Skynet's very survival depended on *getting rid of all human beings.* To believe that Skynet's AI would be flawed enough to build Terminators that could then so easily develop protective feelings for humans undermines everything established in earlier movies about Skynet's threat level and competency. They make killing machines! Those machines will only protect humans if they're *reprogrammed* to do so. Any Skynet default programming would never be so fundamentally flawed as to allow its machines to develop their own protective ambition to preserve the threat/enemy (humans).

As for the Guardian T-800 asking "why" in T2, it isn't a philosophical question he asks - it's a logistical question. A T-800 having advanced intelligence means that knowing "why" is simply an effort to gain more information in order to best assess its mission parameters. And a killing machine being ordered not to kill is something that it would seek added information/data about.

In a T-800's processor ("brain"), asking "why" after being ordered to do something completely opposite of its programming protocols is the same as it saying: "Does not compute; more data required to process new algorithm." Upon failing to attain more info (twice), the advanced machine simply complies and goes forward with less-than-optimal data. As an advanced machine, it would seek as much data as possible, but still be designed to ultimately comply with pre-programmed orders.

If if makes you feel any better after Carl said goodbye to his girlfriend and her son he didn?t give 2 craps about them because he forgot they even existed never to be mentioned again.



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[Khev]

And all of that fits in with Carl in DF. Some people are carrying on like he has genuine emotions but he doesn't.

 

[jye4ever]

The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

And all of that fits in with Carl in DF. Some people are carrying on like he has genuine emotions but he doesn't.

Yup

Instead of retelling family stories of life experiences with the loved ones he brought up fond memories of drapes and curtain installations.



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[snoop101]

And all of that fits in with Carl in DF. Some people are carrying on like he has genuine emotions but he doesn't.

Which fits in perfectly with T2. "I now know why you cry, but it's something I can never do." They understand human emotions, but that doesn't mean they feel them. Having and protecting his "family" gave him a sense of purpose as did protecting Dani.

 

[Khev]

Re: The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

Yup

Instead of retelling family stories of life experiences with the loved ones he brought up fond memories of drapes and curtain installations.

Yes he explained data he learned about curtains as if would be just as interesting to humans as sharing info about how Dyson helped build Cyberdyne. Ask him a question and get a detailed clinical answer either way. And sorry ajp but an unthinking subservient machine or computer *never* needs to know why a command is given. It only needs to follow it.

Now you could argue that he was questioning John's tactics so that it could decide if not killing would be in the best interest of fulfilling his mission but again, if it can do that for John it can do that for Skynet and that's assuming that Skynet gave Carl secondary objectives in the first place. The point remains that Carl after 30 years of contact with humans in no way contradicts how Uncle Bob changed after just *one day.*

 

[jye4ever]

The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

ajp retelling of TDF

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[Khev]

I would think that someone who accepts Luke Skywalker drinking boobie milk after trying to kill his nephew over a bad dream would allow some benefit of the doubt with regard to context.

Because at the end of the day Carl is the *only villainous Arnold Terminator that we've seen since 1984!* And he's the least silly since 1984 as well. No rock music playing when he steps outside, no being forced to do embarrassing things like stand on one foot, etc.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yes he explained data he learned about curtains as if would be just as interesting to humans as sharing info about how Dyson helped build Cyberdyne. Ask him a question and get a detailed clinical answer either way. And sorry ajp but an unthinking subservient machine or computer *never* needs to know why a command is given. It only needs to follow it.

Now you could argue that he was questioning John's tactics so that it could decide if not killing would be in the best interest of fulfilling his mission but again, if it can do that for John it can do that for Skynet and that's assuming that Skynet gave Carl secondary objectives in the first place. The point remains that Carl after 30 years of contact with humans in no way contradicts how Uncle Bob changed after just *one day.*

An advanced AI means being able to "think." But that thinking involves asking questions to gain more information, which in turn leads to being more efficient. A machine doesn't think because it "wonders" or "doubts," it thinks because it's programmed to gather and filter information in order to execute its function with optimal effectiveness.

If a Terminator can understand human emotion, that understanding is the function of advanced processing skill. But it doesn't mean that the terminator will ever have any reason to be *sympathetic* to human emotion. To be an effective killing machine, they'd be designed to understand human behavior . . . in order to exploit it. Not to help it survive or thrive.

My key point is that Skynet (in the future) wanted all humans eliminated. Therefore, any machine that it builds in that future and sends back in time will be designed (by superior artificial intelligence) to serve that singular aim of ensuring Skynet's survival in that future and beyond. None of that lines up with building terminators who will need to "fit in" or "find purpose."

But, like I said, I haven't seen DF. Maybe this all makes perfect sense . . . somehow. On the surface, though, it's just baffling to me.

ajp retelling of TDF

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If the movie says that a T-800 would naturally default to wanting to integrate with humans, and even help protect someone like Sarah Conner, then yeah that photo isn't far from how silly that plot is to me.

Sorry, but it doesn't flow with what a terminator would be designed to develop into. Skynet got close to human extinction in the future by ruthlessly eliminating anything that *could* pose a threat to its survival. Its machines (including T-800's) would be built from that same AI survival assesment.

If this movie is supposed to make me believe that a terminator would "find fulfillment" in having a family and selling drapes, it's gonna have to do an amazing ****ing job at providing a foundation for that.

I would think that someone who accepts Luke Skywalker drinking boobie milk after trying to kill his nephew over a bad dream would allow some benefit of the doubt with regard to context.

I'm not gonna be baited by that rabbit hole.

 

[Khev]

I'm not gonna be baited by that rabbit hole.

 

[jye4ever]

The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

TDF total budget with marketing 250 million.

Won?t even break 100 million

Oh Cameron what have you done you naughty naughty man.


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[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Meanwhile, a little R rated drama with no action, no China, and no 3D is on its way to a billion in spite of the negative media coverage and SJW "critics."

 

[Khev]

TDF total budget with marketing 250 million.

Won?t even break 100 million

Oh Cameron what have you done you naughty naught man.

Cameron confirmed they do indeed have a full trilogy outline but that unlike Salvation and Genysis they deliberately wrote DF so that the first chapter could function as a stand-alone if they didn't get the opportunity to make more. He says the idea was that since a war with AI was inevitable Parts II and III would have explored the notions of humans and AI trying to resolve the conflict that ends the perpetual loop. If I were to guess I'd assume Part III would end with some sort of Matrix Revolutions-style truce.

But now I have to wonder if an entire future war movie was coming with that awesome new setting they teased in Grace's extended flashback and we're once again denied.

Back to ajp in all seriousness imagine how someone who hated T2 might describe it to you before you saw it. They could make it sound *really* dumb. "Remember that horrifying badass from the first one? He's *hugging children* and playing "high five think fast" games in this one. A small child even controls him and forces him to look silly and stand on one foot before exclaiming 'Cool my own Terminator!'" I mean if that's all you went on I'm sure you could easily determine that there'd be no way in hell that movie could be good.

But Carl is a Cameron approved Terminator, and like I said the least silly Terminator since the original. Hell the "wash day tomorrow" scene is even a little silly for the original Terminator and Carl doesn't even have *that.* I'm not saying you'll like the movie, it's "Alien 3" qualities are well documented, but the premise is sound and tonally consistent with T1 and T2. It's just lacking in style and thrills which obviously were big parts of T1/T2 that are sadly missed.

It's redeemed by the premise, Arnold, Sarah, and the totally freaking awesome black endos. Grace does have some cool moves throughout as well.

I'd go:

T1: 10/10
T2: 9.5/10
TDF: 6/10

A drop in quality no doubt but it's got enough redeeming qualities for me to accept it as canon and more importantly much more enjoyable elements to think about and discuss than anything since T2.

 

[e30ernest]

Cameron confirmed they do indeed have a full trilogy outline but that unlike Salvation and Genysis they deliberately wrote DF so that the first chapter could function as a stand-alone if they didn't get the opportunity to make more. He says the idea was that since a war with AI was inevitable Parts II and III would have explored the notions of humans and AI trying to resolve the conflict that ends the perpetual loop. If I were to guess I'd assume Part III would end with some sort of Matrix Revolutions-style truce.

But now I have to wonder if an entire future war movie was coming with that awesome new setting they teased in Grace's extended flashback and we're once again denied.

Back to ajp in all seriousness imagine how someone who hated T2 might describe it to you before you saw it. They could make it sound *really* dumb. "Remember that horrifying badass from the first one? He's *hugging children* and playing "high five think fast" games in this one. A small child even controls him and forces him to look silly and stand on one foot before exclaiming 'Cool my own Terminator!'" I mean if that's all you went on I'm sure you could easily determine that there'd be no way in hell that movie could be good.

But Carl is a Cameron approved Terminator, and like I said the least silly Terminator since the original. Hell the "wash day tomorrow" scene is even a little silly for the original Terminator and Carl doesn't even have *that.* I'm not saying you'll like the movie, it's "Alien 3" qualities are well documented, but the premise is sound and tonally consistent with T1 and T2. It's just lacking in style and thrills which obviously were big parts of T1/T2 that are sadly missed.

It's redeemed by the premise, Arnold, Sarah, and the totally freaking awesome black endos. Grace does have some cool moves throughout as well.

I'd go:

T1: 10/10
T2: 9.5/10
TDF: 6/10

A drop in quality no doubt but it's got enough redeeming qualities for me to accept it as canon and more importantly much more enjoyable elements to think about and discuss than anything since T2.

I agree with this I'd honestly choose this over any of the last Terminator movies to come out. Just saw T3 and Genesys last week and those didn't stand up well through time.

 

[punisher1974]

Lol, I take it you saw DF then? What'd you think?

Some parts I really liked. The opening was a brutal start but overall I think it was ok. Not sure about how Carl moved on and made a life the way he did but overall carl is better than pops. Some really cool sequences but I still imagine what a future war movie with the T1 and T2 look would have made for a near perfect trilogy. My head canon only counts the first 2 movies but I did find a lot to enjoy out of this one as a different take.

 

[Khev]

I agree with this

Some parts I really liked. The opening was a brutal start but overall I think it was ok. Not sure about how Carl moved on and made a life the way he did but overall carl is better than pops. Some really cool sequences but I still imagine what a future war movie with the T1 and T2 look would have made for a near perfect trilogy. My head canon only counts the first 2 movies but I did find a lot to enjoy out of this one as a different take.

Pretty sensible take I'd say.

 

[Wor-Gar]

But Carl is a Cameron approved Terminator...

What does that even mean? Is that like a Lucas approved Jar-Jar?

 

[Alice]

One of the things I liked about the original two movies was how they logically handled some of the more "down to earth" aspects of things. For example, in T1 the T-800 murders a police station full of cops. In T2, on the radio chatter during the Cyberdyne raid we hear the dispatcher say suspects are Sarah Connor and male wanted in conjunction with 1984 police station shooting, showing that the model 101 has been on the most wanted list for 7-8 years.

Now, seeing as how Sarah nor anyone else involved in the Cyberdyne explosion (not to mention the minigun/grenade launcher assault, shooting several police officers and stealing a SWAT van) was captured, they would still be on those wanted lists. Sarah and John obviously continued to live off the grid. But now you have another model 101 killing a kid in broad daylight and walking off. Once the police were called and witness statements were taken, wouldn't the suspect 101 that has two other MAJOR criminal events on record simply add a third, putting himself back on the most wanted radar with this new lead?

And what does Carl do to remain off the grid and under the radar? Why, of course he would open a business. And being someone that conducts business in 2019, where there are cameras everywhere you look, are you telling me this walking, talking wanted poster never raised anyone's eyebrows?

 

[jye4ever]

Cameron confirmed they do indeed have a full trilogy outline but that unlike Salvation and Genysis they deliberately wrote DF so that the first chapter could function as a stand-alone if they didn't get the opportunity to make more. He says the idea was that since a war with AI was inevitable Parts II and III would have explored the notions of humans and AI trying to resolve the conflict that ends the perpetual loop. If I were to guess I'd assume Part III would end with some sort of Matrix Revolutions-style truce.

But now I have to wonder if an entire future war movie was coming with that awesome new setting they teased in Grace's extended flashback and we're once again denied.

Back to ajp in all seriousness imagine how someone who hated T2 might describe it to you before you saw it. They could make it sound *really* dumb. "Remember that horrifying badass from the first one? He's *hugging children* and playing "high five think fast" games in this one. A small child even controls him and forces him to look silly and stand on one foot before exclaiming 'Cool my own Terminator!'" I mean if that's all you went on I'm sure you could easily determine that there'd be no way in hell that movie could be good.

But Carl is a Cameron approved Terminator, and like I said the least silly Terminator since the original. Hell the "wash day tomorrow" scene is even a little silly for the original Terminator and Carl doesn't even have *that.* I'm not saying you'll like the movie, it's "Alien 3" qualities are well documented, but the premise is sound and tonally consistent with T1 and T2. It's just lacking in style and thrills which obviously were big parts of T1/T2 that are sadly missed.

It's redeemed by the premise, Arnold, Sarah, and the totally freaking awesome black endos. Grace does have some cool moves throughout as well.

I'd go:

T1: 10/10
T2: 9.5/10
TDF: 6/10

A drop in quality no doubt but it's got enough redeeming qualities for me to accept it as canon and more importantly much more enjoyable elements to think about and discuss than anything since T2.

Great post one could easily describe a lame acting Uncle Bob to an unsuspecting new fan.

Shame Carl and the rest of the characters weren?t surrounded by amazing set pieces it really hurt the movie.

I?m the opposite I give

T2 10/10
T1 9.5/10

Anyways the future war stuff in this movie was breathtaking the speed of the troop transport rattling the car causing the skulls to roll off.

We were totaling going to get that but now denied.

Grrr

One of the things I liked about the original two movies was how they logically handled some of the more "down to earth" aspects of things. For example, in T1 the T-800 murders a police station full of cops. In T2, on the radio chatter during the Cyberdyne raid we hear the dispatcher say suspects are Sarah Connor and male wanted in conjunction with 1984 police station shooting, showing that the model 101 has been on the most wanted list for 7-8 years.

Now, seeing as how Sarah nor anyone else involved in the Cyberdyne explosion (not to mention the minigun/grenade launcher assault, shooting several police officers and stealing a SWAT van) was captured, they would still be on those wanted lists. Sarah and John obviously continued to live off the grid. But now you have another model 101 killing a kid in broad daylight and walking off. Once the police were called and witness statements were taken, wouldn't the suspect 101 that has two other MAJOR criminal events on record simply add a third, putting himself back on the most wanted radar with this new lead?

And what does Carl do to remain off the grid and under the radar? Why, of course he would open a business. And being someone that conducts business in 2019, where there are cameras everywhere you look, are you telling me this walking, talking wanted poster never raised anyone's eyebrows?

In TDF Sarah gets pulled out of group incarceration because of her records on file with authority.

She even has built up relationships with military personnel her history is very well known.


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