The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***
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The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
What will most likely occur is that they'll go with the Burton plan where they'll hire someone to continue the story per se, like Schumacher did and continue that route until one fails. When the next Batman and Robin hits the screen from Nolan's original project they'll scrap and reboot, but I don't see WB wasting their time with a reboot when there is still money to be made on this cash cow. I guarantee you that the next director will say "I hope not to copy what Chris did or replace it but continue in the same spirit with a new vision." It'll be pretty pivotal to the franchise who steps in behind Nolan AND Bale.
What will most likely occur is that they'll go with the Burton plan where they'll hire someone to continue the story per se, like Schumacher did and continue that route until one fails. When the next Batman and Robin hits the screen from Nolan's original project they'll scrap and reboot, but I don't see WB wasting their time with a reboot when there is still money to be made on this cash cow. I guarantee you that the next director will say "I hope not to copy what Chris did or replace it but continue in the same spirit with a new vision." It'll be pretty pivotal to the franchise who steps in behind Nolan AND Bale.
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Yeah, IMO they have big shoes to fill. This approach to Batman has made me get back into having a subscription to Batman again. Well, two actually Batman and Batman The Dark Knight which is just getting ready to start.
Yeah, IMO they have big shoes to fill. This approach to Batman has made me get back into having a subscription to Batman again. Well, two actually Batman and Batman The Dark Knight which is just getting ready to start.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Zack Snyder for Batman.
____ Superman.
Zack Snyder for Batman.
____ Superman.
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Ughh please never Zack Snyder Batman
Ughh please never Zack Snyder Batman
Mad Old Lu
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
The thing about the origin story is that it's easy. Every story needs a character arc, and the most obvious and pivotal is a hero's journey from ordinary man to super hero. It's hard to come up with additional character arcs for subsequent stories. Spiderman 2 did it nicely because Pete had to decide between quitting or continuing on as a hero no matter how miserable he was. X-Men 2 had Jean's (and Logan's) character arcs. Empire had Luke's journey to become a Jedi, and Han becoming a true selfless hero (and Leia admitting she loved Han).
TDK was Harvey's journey mainly, but also had Bruce questioning his future as Batman.
So it's really easy for a new filmmaker to go with the origin story to make the most impact for his first shot at a franchise. You can also see why by the third film most franchises begin to fizzle out. They just run out of ideas for character arcs.
Bond has been different, but I think part of Casino's success was because it showed a true arc for the Bond character--something we seldom saw before (maybe just in OHMSS). And TV shows have the luxury to evolve characters over a long period of time. There is the sense of small discoveries about a character from episode to episode, and for especially good shows, you can see a larger story arc spreading across a season or entire run of a show.
The thing about the origin story is that it's easy. Every story needs a character arc, and the most obvious and pivotal is a hero's journey from ordinary man to super hero. It's hard to come up with additional character arcs for subsequent stories. Spiderman 2 did it nicely because Pete had to decide between quitting or continuing on as a hero no matter how miserable he was. X-Men 2 had Jean's (and Logan's) character arcs. Empire had Luke's journey to become a Jedi, and Han becoming a true selfless hero (and Leia admitting she loved Han).
TDK was Harvey's journey mainly, but also had Bruce questioning his future as Batman.
So it's really easy for a new filmmaker to go with the origin story to make the most impact for his first shot at a franchise. You can also see why by the third film most franchises begin to fizzle out. They just run out of ideas for character arcs.
Bond has been different, but I think part of Casino's success was because it showed a true arc for the Bond character--something we seldom saw before (maybe just in OHMSS). And TV shows have the luxury to evolve characters over a long period of time. There is the sense of small discoveries about a character from episode to episode, and for especially good shows, you can see a larger story arc spreading across a season or entire run of a show.
The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
From what I've been reading (and it could all be bull____ anyway) I'm not too keen on Zack Snyder for Superman at the moment either.
See where Hollywood fails with these Superhero films is that they focus on the hero only and when that tale is done they think its finished. If they focused on the villain and the tale of them and their interactions and effect on the hero, we'd get better films. Spider-Man 2 did that, Spider-Man 3 tried to do that, Iron Man 2 could have done that and with such a rich rogue gallery with heavy histories even the ones not tied to Bruce himself, it seems like a no-brainer
From what I've been reading (and it could all be bull____ anyway) I'm not too keen on Zack Snyder for Superman at the moment either.
See where Hollywood fails with these Superhero films is that they focus on the hero only and when that tale is done they think its finished. If they focused on the villain and the tale of them and their interactions and effect on the hero, we'd get better films. Spider-Man 2 did that, Spider-Man 3 tried to do that, Iron Man 2 could have done that and with such a rich rogue gallery with heavy histories even the ones not tied to Bruce himself, it seems like a no-brainer
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
In fact, I wish Snyder would stay away from all well known comic properties. He's good at what he does, but I prefer some substance over style in my comic movies.
In fact, I wish Snyder would stay away from all well known comic properties. He's good at what he does, but I prefer some substance over style in my comic movies.
cokebabies
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Definitely agreed. I guess I understand the appeal of a movie like Sucker Punch, but to me it looks like over stylized dog ____.
I've got no problem with someone making an entertaining-for-entertainment's-purpose movie, but I'd rather not have that applied to a worthwhile franchise.
Definitely agreed. I guess I understand the appeal of a movie like Sucker Punch, but to me it looks like over stylized dog ____.
I've got no problem with someone making an entertaining-for-entertainment's-purpose movie, but I'd rather not have that applied to a worthwhile franchise.
Kamandi
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
If it were a Nolan story - yes. An adaptation of Miller's story - no.
Miller's Dark Knight has a lot of 1980's cultural references, politics, and most of all it takes place in a 'reality' with the rest of the JLA.
Nolan's Batman would lose all credibility if you threw Superman in there. After all, Bruce's argument to Alfred is Batman would be an incorruptible symbol. Then Harvey comes along and Bruce felt Dent was the better symbol of hope. Bruce was even contemplating (to Rachel) that Batman might not be needed any more.
If Superman lived in the Nolan universe Bruce would hang up the cape.
So back to the point on Miller's Dark Knight - I'd hate to see Nolan try to shoehorn what he's built into Frank Miller's story.
The Dark Knight Returns will probably happen someday, perhaps as a DC Animated feature. And honestly, that's the best way to do it.
And for god's sake someone tell Frank he can't direct it.
If it were a Nolan story - yes. An adaptation of Miller's story - no.
Miller's Dark Knight has a lot of 1980's cultural references, politics, and most of all it takes place in a 'reality' with the rest of the JLA.
Nolan's Batman would lose all credibility if you threw Superman in there. After all, Bruce's argument to Alfred is Batman would be an incorruptible symbol. Then Harvey comes along and Bruce felt Dent was the better symbol of hope. Bruce was even contemplating (to Rachel) that Batman might not be needed any more.
If Superman lived in the Nolan universe Bruce would hang up the cape.
So back to the point on Miller's Dark Knight - I'd hate to see Nolan try to shoehorn what he's built into Frank Miller's story.
The Dark Knight Returns will probably happen someday, perhaps as a DC Animated feature. And honestly, that's the best way to do it.
And for god's sake someone tell Frank he can't direct it.
The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I disagree with this one one point alone: Superman.
Bruce thought Harvey was a better symbol for Gotham. He was contemplating hanging up the cowl because Gotham would already have a protector in Harvey Dent. Bruce wouldn't hang up the cape because of Superman.
Not only is Superman the protector specficially of Metropolis but on a grander scale Superman would be focused on more worldly issues, grander scale issues (especially if Nolan stick to the sole superhero angle) which means a city like Gotham would go virtually ignored in the greater picture. I think the existence of Superman in the Nolanverse would spur Batman to go on because no one would still be watching Gotham like it needed to be, he would look down on Superman a bit for being stretched too thin and even leaving Metropolis open when he went to handle issues elsewhere and Bruce would consider Superman, a being with almost god-like powers too much of a wild card to go unchecked.
It would change Batman's mission because he would feel the need to protect and enforce Gotham but also feel like he would have to monitor the metahumans to make sure they don't go rogue and become more of a threat than the villains they chase.
In the comics during the whole OMAC issues this was part of Batman's mission. I think the inclusion of Superman into the Nolanverse would give a much richer characterization of Batman/Bruce Wayne and create some of the dualities that DC Comics has pushed so much in the past 10 years between the two. Nolan's world kind of is set up for that.
I disagree with this one one point alone: Superman.
Bruce thought Harvey was a better symbol for Gotham. He was contemplating hanging up the cowl because Gotham would already have a protector in Harvey Dent. Bruce wouldn't hang up the cape because of Superman.
Not only is Superman the protector specficially of Metropolis but on a grander scale Superman would be focused on more worldly issues, grander scale issues (especially if Nolan stick to the sole superhero angle) which means a city like Gotham would go virtually ignored in the greater picture. I think the existence of Superman in the Nolanverse would spur Batman to go on because no one would still be watching Gotham like it needed to be, he would look down on Superman a bit for being stretched too thin and even leaving Metropolis open when he went to handle issues elsewhere and Bruce would consider Superman, a being with almost god-like powers too much of a wild card to go unchecked.
It would change Batman's mission because he would feel the need to protect and enforce Gotham but also feel like he would have to monitor the metahumans to make sure they don't go rogue and become more of a threat than the villains they chase.
In the comics during the whole OMAC issues this was part of Batman's mission. I think the inclusion of Superman into the Nolanverse would give a much richer characterization of Batman/Bruce Wayne and create some of the dualities that DC Comics has pushed so much in the past 10 years between the two. Nolan's world kind of is set up for that.
Kamandi
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
We'll see. I think it would be a mistake for Superman to crossover, but money talks.
As much as Nolan has said Superman won't cameo in Rises I wouldn't be surprised if the studio made it a condition of the Nolans taking over the Superman franchise.
We'll see. I think it would be a mistake for Superman to crossover, but money talks.
As much as Nolan has said Superman won't cameo in Rises I wouldn't be surprised if the studio made it a condition of the Nolans taking over the Superman franchise.
The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I don't think Superman should necessarily cross-over (although we've seen at least animated forms where it works) but I don't think each of these movies should operate in a bubble. I think the acknowledgement of his existence would work wonders for the DCU Movie Universe and help drive the characters in their own environments.
I don't think Superman should necessarily cross-over (although we've seen at least animated forms where it works) but I don't think each of these movies should operate in a bubble. I think the acknowledgement of his existence would work wonders for the DCU Movie Universe and help drive the characters in their own environments.
Kamandi
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
There's one other good reason I wouldn't want to see Nolan adapt Dark Knight Returns:
Nolan tells better Batman stories than Miller. I said it. I went there. I know that's going to get me flamed. Miller would have never written "The Dark Knight", a Batman story I feel stands over both of Miller's best Batman works.
Back in the late 80's early 90's I thought Frank Miller walked on water. But Miller's more recent work has caused me to go back and re-evaluate some of his earlier work. My favorite Miller stories coming out of that re-reading period are (in order) Batman: Year One, Daredevil "Born Again", and in third place The Dark Knight Returns.
Dark Knight Returns has a strong first issue. I remember when it was first published I think I stared at it and re-read it for days. It was groundbreaking. There's no arguing that it kicked off a mini-golden age in the 80's for comics. But Miller gets more hurried and cuts corners as the series progresses. But still, for it's blemishes, I loved it. Still do.
But Frank Miller isn't that writer anymore. All-Star Batman and Robin and DK2 proved it. I think both stories represent a hate letter written to his old fans. Don't even get me started on "The Spirit"
"My city cries, it bleeds, my city is a blah blah blah...."
For me, the Nolans have supplanted Frank Miller as the best Batman writers. I don't think the idea of a "last Batman story" is a concept that belongs exclusively to Frank Miller.
There's one other good reason I wouldn't want to see Nolan adapt Dark Knight Returns:
Nolan tells better Batman stories than Miller. I said it. I went there. I know that's going to get me flamed. Miller would have never written "The Dark Knight", a Batman story I feel stands over both of Miller's best Batman works.
Back in the late 80's early 90's I thought Frank Miller walked on water. But Miller's more recent work has caused me to go back and re-evaluate some of his earlier work. My favorite Miller stories coming out of that re-reading period are (in order) Batman: Year One, Daredevil "Born Again", and in third place The Dark Knight Returns.
Dark Knight Returns has a strong first issue. I remember when it was first published I think I stared at it and re-read it for days. It was groundbreaking. There's no arguing that it kicked off a mini-golden age in the 80's for comics. But Miller gets more hurried and cuts corners as the series progresses. But still, for it's blemishes, I loved it. Still do.
But Frank Miller isn't that writer anymore. All-Star Batman and Robin and DK2 proved it. I think both stories represent a hate letter written to his old fans. Don't even get me started on "The Spirit"
"My city cries, it bleeds, my city is a blah blah blah...."
For me, the Nolans have supplanted Frank Miller as the best Batman writers. I don't think the idea of a "last Batman story" is a concept that belongs exclusively to Frank Miller.
Sachiel
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I really doubt that. Nolan seems to have a good deal of control, thankfully. I don't get why people keep wanting Superman shoehorned into Nolan's Batman universe.
There's a possibility we will see a live-action movie in the future with a Superman and a Batman (among other heroes) meeting each other, but not this soon.
I really doubt that. Nolan seems to have a good deal of control, thankfully. I don't get why people keep wanting Superman shoehorned into Nolan's Batman universe.
There's a possibility we will see a live-action movie in the future with a Superman and a Batman (among other heroes) meeting each other, but not this soon.
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
The studio isn'g going to make Nolan do anything, they went to him because he saved Batman and they're looking to him to save Superman, he's got all the power to do what he feels is right and if he tells WB he think's mixing the two wouldn't work, I'm sure they'll trust his judgement. With Begins and TDK, he's earned their faith.
The studio isn'g going to make Nolan do anything, they went to him because he saved Batman and they're looking to him to save Superman, he's got all the power to do what he feels is right and if he tells WB he think's mixing the two wouldn't work, I'm sure they'll trust his judgement. With Begins and TDK, he's earned their faith.
The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
That is true but then again its not. Nolan is a producer, a guiding light on Superman, much different than being the scriptwriter/director on the Batman Franchise. They'll take what he says into account but in picking a director he has pretty much limited what he will do. Synder isn't going to sign on to be an glorified errand boy and do whatever Nolan says. Nolan will help guide for the first and help move things along for the first but after that they'll leave it to Synder and team to move along their idea of what to do. If Nolan says no Superman, he can say that all he wants in his own film. If Synder wants to toss in other heroes into his own franchise I promise you that Nolan's say will be limited to the boardroom and that if the first makes a lot of cash they'll give Synder the blank check as well..
Ultimately when it comes down to it the creative team will take over just like Nolan as part of the creative team of Batman rewrote a script and changed around characters even to make them work. I can see Nolan helping keep things grounded but Synder having ultimate say over what goes in and what doesn't.
That is true but then again its not. Nolan is a producer, a guiding light on Superman, much different than being the scriptwriter/director on the Batman Franchise. They'll take what he says into account but in picking a director he has pretty much limited what he will do. Synder isn't going to sign on to be an glorified errand boy and do whatever Nolan says. Nolan will help guide for the first and help move things along for the first but after that they'll leave it to Synder and team to move along their idea of what to do. If Nolan says no Superman, he can say that all he wants in his own film. If Synder wants to toss in other heroes into his own franchise I promise you that Nolan's say will be limited to the boardroom and that if the first makes a lot of cash they'll give Synder the blank check as well..
Ultimately when it comes down to it the creative team will take over just like Nolan as part of the creative team of Batman rewrote a script and changed around characters even to make them work. I can see Nolan helping keep things grounded but Synder having ultimate say over what goes in and what doesn't.
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Well all I'm talking about is Batman. I haven't followed his part in that. My only point with that is, WB is showing that they really trust Nolan to help them succeed, and I don't see them forcing him to put Supes into TDKR, the want this to be another Dark Knight, so they're probably giving him all the creative control and have learned not to tinker when a director has the right formula.
Well all I'm talking about is Batman. I haven't followed his part in that. My only point with that is, WB is showing that they really trust Nolan to help them succeed, and I don't see them forcing him to put Supes into TDKR, the want this to be another Dark Knight, so they're probably giving him all the creative control and have learned not to tinker when a director has the right formula.
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
When it comes to Synder's suggestion vs. Nolan's the WB will side with Nolan anyday of the week.
When it comes to Synder's suggestion vs. Nolan's the WB will side with Nolan anyday of the week.
The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Hopefully. You would have thought Sony/Columbia would have allowed Raimi to do what he wanted but the powers that be shoehorned in Venom into Spider-Man 3 despite his statements on the fact. Originally WB/DC wanted a Clark Kent and Hal Jordan cameo in TDK that were ultimately written out but you never can tell with the Hollywood machine.
I have my doubts they'll force Nolan to do anything but I would have said the same thing back when Spider-Man 3 was announced and Raimi was at the top of his game after the smash blockbuster Spider-Man 2.
Hopefully. You would have thought Sony/Columbia would have allowed Raimi to do what he wanted but the powers that be shoehorned in Venom into Spider-Man 3 despite his statements on the fact. Originally WB/DC wanted a Clark Kent and Hal Jordan cameo in TDK that were ultimately written out but you never can tell with the Hollywood machine.
I have my doubts they'll force Nolan to do anything but I would have said the same thing back when Spider-Man 3 was announced and Raimi was at the top of his game after the smash blockbuster Spider-Man 2.
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