Who had the upper hand, Mace or Palpatine?

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Who had the upper hand?

  • Mace, he would have destroyed the Sith if not for Anakin

    Votes: 74 58.7%
  • Palpatine, giving the illusion of losing was all part of his plan

    Votes: 52 41.3%

  • Total voters
    126
The ROTS novelization and DARK LORD would indicate that not only was Palpatine in real peril with Mace... the disfigurement is authentic. The "true face" thing is just a symbolic metaphor. The real Sidious pre-deformation was the one in that scene who said "I am the Senate". Had he not had his own Sith lightning deflected, he would likely have looked the same as he did before... with the exception of Sith eyes, as he was in full darkside mode after that.

There is actually a pretty cool sequence in DARK LORD where it deals with Palpatine letting go of the last vestages of his vanity as he attempts, in vain, to heal some of the disfigurement (while Vader deals with his own wounds).

And although those books are technically EU, both Stover and Luceno worked directly with Lucas, particularly on these aspects.
 
Mace totally OWNED Palpatine. The whole "faking it to fool Anakin" thing is so utterly senseless I can't even entertain the thought without laughing. Anakin single-handedly changed the course of the Galaxy by leaving the Temple. That's part of the tremendous power of the Saga; Anakin's choices really did affect the universe. Had it not been for him, the Sith would have been destroyed. Mace totally whooped Sidious and had him crying for help like a two year old child. Only Anakin's typically idiotic intervention saved Palpatine's poor little soul.

Man, I can't stand Anakin. Mace, on the other hand = coolest character ever!
 
What Cap said! It's way more poignant for Anakin to have held the balance of power, and been responsible for the fate of both the Jedi and the Republic, than for Palpatine to have won no matter what.
 
Reading this thread, it saddens me how little some SW fans really understand the SW saga. Weep monkeys, weep. For not all tears are an evil.


:monkey2:monkey2:monkey2 :monkey2:monkey2:monkey2:monkey2:monkey2:monkey2

(and for the last time, force lightening does not disfigure people) :emperor
 
I was under the impression, from the dvd comentary, that Mace and palpatine were equaly matched. each one was doing everything he could just to keep up with the other. for the duration of the fight, Palpatine was matching every attack that mace launched, and mace was matching every attack that palpatine launched.
The fulcrum on which the fight rested was anakins decision. without the chosen on at their side, Neither one could win. Palpatine knew this.
At the moment Anakin enters the room, at THAT MOMENT Mace had the upper hand. Palpatine knew he was comming, and Intentionaly started to loose. Started to not give the fight everything he had. He could very eaisly of used the force to grab his saber after it was knocked through the window, and kep up the defence, but that would have shown anakin his hand. He needed Anakin inorder to win, just as mace did. If they had still been fighting when Anakin entered, he would of seen and known the truth about Palpatine, joined mace, and togther the two of them would have overpowered him.

But, instead as anakin enteres, he sees a weak old man, cowering on the floor, his friend, in pain, begging For his help. For Anakin to Save his life.
Mace knew what had to be done, and he knew what Palpatine REALY was. Anakin didn't. All he saw was his frined begging for help. Say what you want about anakin, he was definitely a "grey Jedi" by this point, neither truely evil or truely good, but his heart guides him to try to do the right thing. He BEGS mace not to kill him, using the excuse "he must stand trial"
Mace goes to strike, and anakin saves him, EXACTLY the same as when he saves Obi-wan from Dooku in ATOC, except he aims lower, and ends up taking maces hand, instead of blocking the attack.
This can be seen as several things. it is my opinion that anakin never intended to "disarm" ( pun intended) Mace. He either missed, or had his hand guided by the force... the DARK SIDE of the force.
He disarms mace, and palpatine is now Clearly in a stronger position, and attacks mace again, with EVERYTHING HE HAS, knocking him out the window with the power of his force lightning blast.

To answer the quest as to who had the upper hand in the fight? it depends on what you mean exactly. Combat prowess, they were equal. ability to use the force, I'd say they were probobly equal. In my opinion, Palpatine had the upper hand, Becuase of knowledge. He knew that anakin would come, and he knew EXACTLY how to push his buttons. Even then, he knew that even if, EVERYTHING was done exactly correct, there was still a chance that Anakin might choose Mace, but he hadno other choice. So he had to Gamble. And he won. It is my opinion that becuase of this knowledge, and this knowledge Sidious had the upper hand.

......wow that's a long answer. Can you tell I've analized this alot? For that matter, you can tell I run the tabeltop star wars RPG on the weekends... :)
 
On the contrary, I think the Palpatine winning theory is a gross inflation of the character's strength and a vain attempt to augment his perceived power in the eyes of fans. The guy is already immensely powerful and tremendously prescient, we know that. But to extend that even to a battle where his loss is not only obvious, but also is the only thing that makes sense within the context of the Hero's Journey, a theme of which Lucas was keenly aware, is simply erroneous. In order for the story arc to work, Palpatine must have been in real, true danger. Only then could Anakin's intervention have meant anything at all--after all, it's not Palpatine's story--it's ANAKIN'S. Had his arrival not meant anything, had it been some absurd plot, then that gorgeous scene, that beautiful moment between him and Padme just before he leaves for the Senate, would have meant nothing. Anakin changed to Galaxy. Anakin made the choice. Anakin saved the Sith. Saying anything less is a misunderstanding of monumental proportions, and destroys any strength of Anakin's character as a viable player in the movies. Wihout that crucial choice, Anakin would never have become a Sith. Star Wars is not about some predestined course of events; that would make the story both weak and stupid. It's about CHOICES--and ultimately, the consequences that come from the wrong choices, like Anakin made, and brave, honest choices--like Luke would make. That's why Star Wars is so powerful, and why Anakin's fall is so tragic while Luke's story is so beautiful.
 
Do any of you people understand what it means to be THE CHOSEN ONE? Seriously, what does that mean to you? If Mace could have beat Palpatine, what use is a friggin nakkin crakalakkin CHOSEN ONE?

:slap
 
Anakins destiny was to bring balance to the force. he was chosen for that. Not to destroy the sith.
Being the "Chosen one" Meant he was to destroy the jedi AND the sith Thus restoring balance to the force.
 
Not argueing with you pix, i THINK you and I are on the same page.

Captian, Yes, all of the tragedy of anakin is far MORE meaningful, BECUASE he was manipulated. the heartfelt goodbye between him and padme, all of it. becuase the moment Anakin chose to help Palpatine, Anakin skywalker died. Darth Vader Betrayed and Murdered him... from within.
Yes, Palpatine Won becuase Darth Vader decided to save him.. but the thing is, Sidious KNEW that is what it would take for him to win in the end. The commentary on the DVD says this.
 
Chosen One did not mean that he was the only one who could save the Galaxy, nor that he was predestined to be the only possible being who could end evil. Ultimately he did, it was prophesied, but the fact that he did does not mean he was the only one who could have. Prophesy does not make things happen--it only sees what will happen and then relates it. It sees the effect without being the cause.
 
I've never given this too much thought, but I gotta say several of the Mace wins folks are alot more convincing in their arguments.
 
Quick FYI, original script, the adventures of Starkiller has Obi-wan's part in ANH played by Good Old Mace windu.

And while we're on the subject of Mace, He lost the fight, not becuase he was weaker than Palpatine, but becuase he came in not ready for what he had to face. He THOUGHT he knew wha t he was getting into, and he was wrong. his Own Overconfidance killed him. the moment anakin walked in and saw his frined in pain.. MAce's name was written in the Shinigami notebook.
 
Anakins destiny was to bring balance to the force. he was chosen for that. Not to destroy the sith.
Being the "Chosen one" Meant he was to destroy the jedi AND the sith Thus restoring balance to the force.

I don't quite agree (and mind you, I perpetuate this conversation with good feelings to all :cool:). He never did destroy the Jedi--Luke continued the Jedi Order. Balance does not mean destruction of both sides, but only evil. Good is balance. To say balance means no good nor evil is in itself flawed. With the Sith destroyed and the Jedi saved through Luke, balance was restored--the balance of good in the galaxy. The Sith and the Jedi are merely agents of the Force, but not the Force itself. But by destroying those who used the Dark Side, light was restored and balance restored; because Good was once again the power that would guide the Galaxy. That is balance.
 
Well that was self contradictory. :lol

DOH! Typo time, it should have read Not to JUST Destroy the sith. Ugh, vikadin is kicking me in the teeth and head it seems.. oh well, atleast I'm earning my name. so to rreiterate and correct my earlier post.

Anakins destiny was to bring balance to the force. he was chosen for that. Not to JUST destroy the sith.
Being the "Chosen one" Meant he was to destroy the jedi AND the sith Thus restoring balance to the force.
 
Chosen One did not mean that he was the only one who could save the Galaxy, nor that he was predestined to be the only possible being who could end evil. Ultimately he did, it was prophesied, but the fact that he did does not mean he was the only one who could have. Prophesy does not make things happen--it only sees what will happen and then relates it. It sees the effect without being the cause.

Totally disagree. Prophecy does (very much) make things happen. Prophecy is the engine which turns events. Your point view totally negates the purpose for a Chosen One.

Yes he was meant to destroy jedi AND sith, but you can't hand one to Anaikin and one to Mace. Anakin was MEANT to destroy both. It was a the will of the Force. This was his whole reason for being.

Besides that, YODA > Mace. and Yoda = Palpatine. Last I checked Yoda was the leader of the Jedi order, not Mace. :lecture
 
Luke was correct when he told Palpatine that his overconfidence was his weakness. Mace had him beat, but Palpatine was a true master of adapting his plands and using whatever was available:
I believe his plan for Naboo was to get him into power, but he hadn't planned on losing Maul, but he adapted.
Qui Gon's death pushed Dooku out of the order, and he seized that opportunity.
He planned on Grievious killing Obi Wan and isolating Anakin, but we know how that turned out.

I think he underestimated Mace and got his but kicked but pulled it out with his wild card. Mace was played by not seeing Anakin being seduced.

Vader didn't become more powerful due to his injuries, but rather his growth was stopped because of lack of motivation. He had already lost everything that mattered to him. Unlike Palps, who wanted power for the sake of power, Anakin wanted power for a reason. That reason died with padme and their child. Once he discovers Luke is his son, he starts changing again.

In the end it was the will of the Force that Mace lost. Qui Gon was the only one that listened solely to the will of the Force, rather than a dogmatic interpretation of good and evil. The force is neither dark or light, but both. It served to promote life, because its made from life, but it was like cutting out some healthy cells to get rid of the cancers that were the rigid Jedi code as well as the Sith.
 
Mace Would have one in the long run... the fight probably wasn't over but Palpatine saw a chance with Anakin and took it.

You could say the same thing with Yoda and the Emp! Yoda probably could have one the fight but at what risk... he decided to run instead!
 
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