Who had the upper hand, Mace or Palpatine?

[lerath666]

Fascinating opinon. but one side in complete controll is not ballance mate.

Ballance requres two forces, in equal opposition to each other. Both orders had lost their way. By destroying both the jedi and the sith, anakin Essentialy was a RESET buttn for the force. Restoiring ballance. the sith had become exceedingly powerful and direct in their actions, but tried to contain all that power and influence in two individuals. The jedi, on the other hand had become a different sort of corrupt. they had lost their way, and become very... Perhaps misguided is the phrase I'm looking for. So sure in the rightness of their won actions, they blindly charged into a civil war. Yes, they were only "killing" droids but they still very quickly became the lapdogs of the emperor, guided by their own "misguided" belief in their own Self-assured rightness.

Luke did not Save the OLD jedi order. tThink about how he was trained. He was trained with spirituality, not science. He Restarted the jedi order, and made it new. it went, essentialy from a group of scientists harnessting the power of nature to do thier will, to Druids in tune with nature, thus in harmony with the galaxy.

There can be no good without Evil. there can be no good without bad. Nature IS ballance. thus why the jedi order needed to be restarted , and be in tune with it.

 

[lerath666]

Luke was correct when he told Palpatine that his overconfidence was his weakness. Mace had him beat, but Palpatine was a true master of adapting his plands and using whatever was available:
I believe his plan for Naboo was to get him into power, but he hadn't planned on losing Maul, but he adapted.
Qui Gon's death pushed Dooku out of the order, and he seized that opportunity.
He planned on Grievious killing Obi Wan and isolating Anakin, but we know how that turned out.

I think he underestimated Mace and got his but kicked but pulled it out with his wild card. Mace was played by not seeing Anakin being seduced.

Vader didn't become more powerful due to his injuries, but rather his growth was stopped because of lack of motivation. He had already lost everything that mattered to him. Unlike Palps, who wanted power for the sake of power, Anakin wanted power for a reason. That reason died with padme and their child. Once he discovers Luke is his son, he starts changing again.

In the end it was the will of the Force that Mace lost. Qui Gon was the only one that listened solely to the will of the Force, rather than a dogmatic interpretation of good and evil. The force is neither dark or light, but both. It served to promote life, because its made from life, but it was like cutting out some healthy cells to get rid of the cancers that were the rigid Jedi code as well as the Sith.

you bring a tear to my eyes Sir . TEARS OF JOY! you Actualy Get it!

 

[IrishJedi]

Reading this thread, it saddens me how little some SW fans really understand the SW saga. Weep monkeys, weep. For not all tears are an evil.

:

(and for the last time, force lightening does not disfigure people) :emperor

Tell that to Lucas.

 

[pixletwin]

I don't quite agree (and mind you, I perpetuate this conversation with good feelings to all ). He never did destroy the Jedi--Luke continued the Jedi Order. Balance does not mean destruction of both sides, but only evil. Good is balance. To say balance means no good nor evil is in itself flawed. With the Sith destroyed and the Jedi saved through Luke, balance was restored--the balance of good in the galaxy. The Sith and the Jedi are merely agents of the Force, but not the Force itself. But by destroying those who used the Dark Side, light was restored and balance restored; because Good was once again the power that would guide the Galaxy. That is balance.

The Jedi order as it existed was DEAD. Luke's jedi order started a new for square one. The whole point of why Anakin needed to bring balance to the force was because the Jedi order and the Sith were truly not too different from each other. The Jedi order was corrupted and needed to be ended.

Darth Vader ended the Jedi order when he supported Palpatine's Order 66. And Anakin Skywalker ended the Sith when he tossed Palps down the DSII shaft. Thus he brought balance to the force.

(ps Yoda and Obi-Wan ceased to be members fo the Old Jedi order when they became apprentices to Qui-Gon's ghost.

 

[Captain Faramir]

I totally believe that; Yoda was more powerful than Mace. Nonetheless, I stand by my remarks. I do not believe the Chosen One prophesy caused anything to happen, except to inflate the Jedi's trust in Anakin. Whomever received the prophecy merely saw what would happen, but did not make it so; nor did the Force. I hate to quote a franchise of which I am not fond, but as in Harry Potter, the prophesy is not what matters--it's our choices. Anakin's choices made him the Chosen One just as much as his birth.

The story of Star Wars is in part flawed by Lucas' inconsistencies and tendency to leave massive gaps in the plot lines, but in this matter the events are clear. Mace defeated Palpatine in battle, and would have destroyed the poor old geezer and saved the Galaxy. But Lucas vehemently places Anakin in the center of affairs in which he should not have been involved because it would lead him to the path of the dark side. There are other scenes besides that one, especially the interplay between he and Padme. Anakin's grief at the Council Chamber just before he leaves is actually well-acted (coming from me that says much), and expressed his despair and confusion, and ultimately his selfish concern and doubt in the Jedi over his willingness to trust others. He decided he was more powerful, that he knew better, and left the Temple, to the ruin of all. It was that choice, that crucial moment which is the most powerful in all the film, which turned him to the Dark Side.

You are all free to believe what you will, but the evidence and the entire story of Star Wars, seen as one whole, leads me to that one conclusion. I've studied it from the viewpoint of a fan, a scholar, a literary analyst, and a wide-eyed kid, and that is the only explanation that remains valid--and meaningful. Palpatine as a winner cheapens the story and makes Anakin's character useless and empty, a mindless pawn to the will of a more important character, which Anakin is not. Otherwise, his final redemption on the Death Star II is similarly redundant. I'm sorry if I'm a bit stubborn about it, but only on the foundation of tremendous pondering and study. Star Wars is a beautiful story because it moves us to be better people and make better, selfless choices. It compells us to do what's right because it matters, not because something is making us do so. We all have a choice, and so did Anakin. Otherwise, his story is not a tragedy, because he was never great--just a helpless pawn the whole time. That's not tragic, it's pathetic. And Anakin was not.

 

[Anzik]

Mace Would have one in the long run... the fight probably wasn't over but Palpatine saw a chance with Anakin and took it.

You could say the same thing with Yoda and the Emp! Yoda probably could have one the fight but at what risk... he decided to run instead!

In the novelization, Yoda only leaves when Palpy summons the troops. He knows he can't battle the shock troopers and the emperor.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Luke was correct when he told Palpatine that his overconfidence was his weakness. Mace had him beat, but Palpatine was a true master of adapting his plands and using whatever was available:
I believe his plan for Naboo was to get him into power, but he hadn't planned on losing Maul, but he adapted.
Qui Gon's death pushed Dooku out of the order, and he seized that opportunity.
He planned on Grievious killing Obi Wan and isolating Anakin, but we know how that turned out.

I think he underestimated Mace and got his but kicked but pulled it out with his wild card. Mace was played by not seeing Anakin being seduced.

Vader didn't become more powerful due to his injuries, but rather his growth was stopped because of lack of motivation. He had already lost everything that mattered to him. Unlike Palps, who wanted power for the sake of power, Anakin wanted power for a reason. That reason died with padme and their child. Once he discovers Luke is his son, he starts changing again.

With this I can agree!

 

[pixletwin]

Anzik and Lerath, you boys know your stuff.

 

[lerath666]

Palpatine as a winner cheapens the story and makes Anakin's character useless and empty, a mindless pawn to the will of a more important character, which Anakin is not.

I disagree. Anakin is not pathetic, he is Nieve. it is that nievity that is his GREATEST flaw. He thinks saving his friend is the best corse of action, and acts on it without REALY thinking it through. Palpatine is NOT a winner, He is an evil, manipulative sadistic sonofa*****. He won becuase from the first day they met he was tugging on anakin like a puppet on a string. The same way Hitler drove germany during WWII. The right word, or speach at the right moment, the right look, the right inflection, the right tone. He played the boy like a Violin. In his Heart, I'm sure that anakin knew what the right thing to do was, but he still HAD to Save the man he saw as his friend. He knew it was wrong, but he couldn't let his friend die. That is the tragedy.

 

[Anzik]

Going back to Greek mythology, sometimes the knowledge of the prophecy is what causes the prophecy to be fulfilled.
It just says the chosen one will bring balance to the Force, but it doesn't say how.
Had Mace defeated Palpatine, perhaps Anakin would have done it a different way. maybe he would have risen to lead the Jedi and turn them back to what they were supposed to be, agents of the will of the Force.

 

[Captain Faramir]

Going back to Greek mythology, sometimes the knowledge of the prophecy is what causes the prophecy to be fulfilled.
It just says the chosen one will bring balance to the Force, but it doesn't say how.
Had Mace defeated Palpatine, perhaps Anakin would have done it a different way. maybe he would have risen to lead the Jedi and turn them back to what they were supposed to be, agents of the will of the Force.

I like you. You make sense. Now I can go do homework.

 

[pixletwin]

I like you. You make sense. Now I can go do homework.

Not sure how this was any clearer than what I said. But whatever.

I love geek sprecht.

 

[lerath666]

Anzik and Lerath, you boys know your stuff.

Dude, I eat, sleep ,and occasionly poop starwars... one time ... it looked like yoda... well atleast it was green

Seriously though, I realy love this stuff. Here is another thing for you. Why does darth vader ( not anakin skywalker) become so powerful? He draws hispower from his hate. his hate of something He can NEVER forgive. Himself. He hates and lothes everything he has become from the moment he helped palatine kill mace, and then slaughter the temple. He can't forgive himself, so he can't let go of the hate, thus he poweres himself.

But then he discivers his son yet lives... if he lives, then perhaps he did not kill padme... and he starts to forgive himself little by little, post Empire strikes back. and in doing so, he slowly becomes more and more human ( on the inside) and less and less powerful. this is shown at it's strongest in ROTJ, when luke fights him into a corner, and he becomes exhausted.
A jedi ( and sith's) power flows from the force. he was proud of his son, he started to let go of his rage... and lost the fight becuase the fight simply left him.

 

[OSCORP]

Sidious :emperor

 

[lerath666]

I like you. You make sense. Now I can go do homework.

Yoiu and me both, what are you doing schoolwork wise? ( just currious)

 

[pixletwin]

Lerath you're right. The moment Vader starts to lose power is when he goes back on to the Executor after the Bespin duel and the commander loses the Milenium Falcon (and you can see him bristling under the anticipation of being force choked) and Vader just walks past him without a word. I love that moment. Its the moment Anakin started to wake up again.

 

[lerath666]

Exactly the moment i was thinking of Pix. I so miss the original version, with vader walking out of cloud city.. and all he says is "....Bring my shuttle..." you can hear the pain in his voice....

 

[Outer_Rim]

The question is cap, Palpatine was in real danger, not because Mace had the upper hand but because he let him had it. When Palpatine unleashed his force lightning over Mace, the Jedi Master blocked it and they came to a standoff. Palpatine was absorbing his own Dark Side energy and his skin became to decay, but that was making him even stronger (ROTS novel say so). So we got Mace and Palpy trying to overpower each other and here is when Palpatine realized that if he turns Anakin, he will kill to birds with one stone. By faking defeat he exposed himself to a great danger, just like he did on the Invisible Hand or will do on the second Death Star with Luke when Vader blocks Luke´s blow.

Star Wars is about choices, yes, but also about destiny. Only Anakin can destroy the Sith according to Lucas, it is his destiny, and at the same time he chooses when, where and how.

 

[RJMacReady16]

I'm blown away by the results of this poll----

My friends, there was no "plan" in Palpatine getting seriously maimed by his own "force lightning". Mace whipped his arse, and sissy-boy saved Palpatine's life.

I can't believe that 44% of you didn't even understand what was going on in the movie!

 

[KitFisto]

Why do people listen to the novel? Who cares what it says. It's someones interpretation of Lucas' story. Star Wars is what's put on screen just as Lucas has said more than once.