X-Men: Apocalypse - May 27, 2016

[pturtle]

I don't get the whole dated argument. All movies with action sequences or heavy special effects become dated at some point...all of them. The Matrix is dated as hell, but the action was innovative and it influenced many Hollywood films, and yet despite the dated action the film and those sequences are still awesome.

This is kind of my point, which is why I prefer originality in action over anything else.

 

[GasparZizou]

See, I don't know why they're on another level? I mean DieHard is one of the greatest action movies ever, and to me, while it doesn't have over the top action, I prefer its action because it has personality, it's not just computer generated characters punching each other.

There are many many reasons why they're on another level, choreography, photography, creativity, and sheer brutality, also, you'd be surprised how much of MoS/BvS CGI is not really CGI.

Those videos you posted, 2 or 3 are very good, the rest are TV-tier action at best imo, and that's ok, it's Singer's trademark action, it excels sometimes with his outdated methods, most times it doesn't.

Ant-Man/Giant Man is as original as Nightcrawler imo, which is the best sequence you posted there, I'd put that scene along with the best of MCU or DC, but that's it.

Wolverine is just hack and slashing while screaming, without any of Wolverine's trademark animal savagery, hunched over and ****, nothing really surprising.

Marvel may not be very good at the CGI heavy hitter action, but they make up for it with hand to hand, which is so good, it can be compared to straight up action/martial arts movies, you can't do that with the Singerverse hand to hand fights.

And MoS CGI action may be straight forward, but it captures the physicality of beings that fly and move at incredible speed and can hurl train wagons as improvised weapons, it captures perfectly the acceleration, the pace, the moment of impact with each punch/kick, sonic booms, blast waves perfectly timed that send the fighters flying several yards away, etc etc, all while still managing to show a bit of martial arts from the Kryptonians.

Marvel tried to do the same thing with the Hulkbuster vs Hulk and it's just not the same, it lacks most of the stuff I mentioned above, same for Vision.

And most of the Singerverse stuff is just people, that don't really look like they train, just running around screaming, with the very noticeable wirework doing most of the work.

 

[GasparZizou]

I don't get the whole dated argument. All movies with action sequences or heavy special effects become dated at some point...all of them. The Matrix is dated as hell, but the action was innovative and it influenced many Hollywood films, and yet despite the dated action the film and those sequences are still awesome.

What's to get, something's dated, it aged well or it didn't, Imo most Singer action didn't age well at all.

And today's action will be dated someday too, whether it ages well or not is to be seen.

This is kind of my point, which is why I prefer originality in action over anything else.

You say that like there's nothing original about MCU of BvS action.

You're overrating Singer action imo, apart from some scenes like Quick Silver, Nightcrawler and Magneto's escape, the rest are not original, creative or exciting imo.

On Marvel they did things like showing Ant-man's power and using it appropriate ways.

On DC they were the first ones, THE first ones to ever show a Superman that move like everyone thought Superman should move.

 

[pturtle]

There are many many reasons why they're on another level, choreography, photography, creativity, and sheer brutality, also, you'd be surprised how much of MoS/BvS CGI is not really CGI.

Those videos you posted, 2 or 3 are very good, the rest are TV-tier action at best imo, and that's ok, it's Singer's trademark action, it excels sometimes with his outdated methods, most times it doesn't.

Ant-Man/Giant Man is as original as Nightcrawler imo, which is the best sequence you posted there, I'd put that scene along with the best of MCU or DC, but that's it.

Wolverine is just hack and slashing while screaming, without any of Wolverine's trademark animal savagery, hunched over and ****, nothing really surprising.

Marvel may not be very good at the CGI heavy hitter action, but they make up for it with hand to hand, which is so good, it can be compared to straight up action/martial arts movies, you can't do that with the Singerverse hand to hand fights.

And MoS CGI action may be straight forward, but it captures the physicality of beings that fly and move at incredible speed and can hurl train wagons as improvised weapons, it captures perfectly the acceleration, the pace, the moment of impact with each punch/kick, sonic booms, blast waves perfectly timed that send the fighters flying several yards away, etc etc.

Marvel tried to do the same thing with the Hulkbuster vs Hulk and it's just not the same.

And most of the Singerverse stuff is just people, that don't really look like they train, just running around screaming, with the very noticeable wirework doing most of the work.

Ah man I disagree.

Most of what you're speaking of is about the technology, but honestly, not one scene in MOS action wise is as memorable as Superman Returns Plane rescue, and not as original as showing Superman literally faster than a bullet.

I don't see what Wolverine hunched over does for the scene, in fact Hugh was hunched over a **** ton in Origins and he looked ridiculous because of his lanky body.

The mansion sequence to me at least is better acted, more brutal, more intense and better shot than anything in MOS. Even the camera work is brilliant, just watch how Singer gets away with showing Wolverine stab soldiers and have the AV light on their guns shine on the screen. It subtle and more memorable in my opinion.

 

[pturtle]

There are many many reasons why they're on another level, choreography, photography, creativity, and sheer brutality, also, you'd be surprised how much of MoS/BvS CGI is not really CGI.

Those videos you posted, 2 or 3 are very good, the rest are TV-tier action at best imo, and that's ok, it's Singer's trademark action, it excels sometimes with his outdated methods, most times it doesn't.

Ant-Man/Giant Man is as original as Nightcrawler imo, which is the best sequence you posted there, I'd put that scene along with the best of MCU or DC, but that's it.

Wolverine is just hack and slashing while screaming, without any of Wolverine's trademark animal savagery, hunched over and ****, nothing really surprising.

Marvel may not be very good at the CGI heavy hitter action, but they make up for it with hand to hand, which is so good, it can be compared to straight up action/martial arts movies, you can't do that with the Singerverse hand to hand fights.

And MoS CGI action may be straight forward, but it captures the physicality of beings that fly and move at incredible speed and can hurl train wagons as improvised weapons, it captures perfectly the acceleration, the pace, the moment of impact with each punch/kick, sonic booms, blast waves perfectly timed that send the fighters flying several yards away, etc etc, all while still managing to show a bit of martial arts from the Kryptonians.

Marvel tried to do the same thing with the Hulkbuster vs Hulk and it's just not the same, it lacks most of the stuff I mentioned above, same for Vision.

And most of the Singerverse stuff is just people, that don't really look like they train, just running around screaming, with the very noticeable wirework doing most of the work.

Sometimes less is more. Antman turning into Giant Man was more funny than exciting, or even original. It might be true to the character but I don't see anything original, or innovative about it.

I think your Snyderverse argument should be directed at DOFP. That I could agree with a bit even though I still thought the action was very good in that movie, but X2 literally offers everything. The only subpar wirework is in the Lady Deathstrike scene.

 

[GasparZizou]

Ah man I disagree.

Most of what you're speaking of is about the technology, but honestly, not one scene in MOS action wise is as memorable as Superman Returns Plane rescue, and not as original as showing Superman literally faster than a bullet.

I don't see what Wolverine hunched over does for the scene, in fact Hugh was hunched over a **** ton in Origins and he looked ridiculous because of his lanky body.

The mansion sequence to me at least is better acted, more brutal, more intense and better shot than anything in MOS. Even the camera work is brilliant, just watch how Singer gets away with showing Wolverine stab soldiers and have the AV light on their guns shine on the screen. It subtle and more memorable in my opinion.

CGI also needs to be choreographed and storyboarded. I give you those 2 SR scenes, which are miles better than anything in the Singerverse.

Not only hunched over, there's no animal savagery, or the slightest hint of technique, Wolverine KNOWS how to fight and moves like an animal, and Hackman is all tense and screaming and running all the time, it's just a dude throwing punches with claws in his hands.

More screaming is not better acted imo, and the camera is ok. But the camera work on the MoS and BvS fights, is a thing of beauty, Snyder knows how to frame a shot for the moment someone is going to punch/dodge/hurl, etc etc so you get the most out of that single movement.

Memorable means nothing, what's memorable to you may not be memorable to someone else, MoS fights are more memorable to me than X2 fights, but that means nothing.

 

[bboy]

Yeah don't see Antmans action being innovative at all. I liked Antmans movies though. Him growing big was an exciting moment, but didn't hold any crazy weight or have any crazy outcomes of levity at all. And him being small in iron man was very cgi, everything he did was very cgi.


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[The Clown Prince of Crime]

What's to get, something's dated, it aged well or it didn't, Imo most Singer action didn't age well at all.

And today's action will be dated someday too, whether it ages well or not is to be seen.

All action films and special films are dated and will be dated, especially those using heavy cgi action. In MOS, the robot thing that talks to Jor El looked dated in 2013, and it looks even worse now.

 

[GasparZizou]

Sometimes less is more. Antman turning into Giant Man was more funny than exciting, or even original. It might be true to the character but I don't see anything original, or innovative about it.

I think your Snyderverse argument should be directed at DOFP. That I could agree with a bit even though I still thought the action was very good in that movie, but X2 literally offers everything. The only subpar wirework is in the Lady Deathstrike scene.

Sometimes less is more you say, yet in the Nightcrawler scene he hurls and punches guards and these guys spin back a couple times before falling to the ground, sometimes in opposite direction to what inertia says they should go, which is something that always happens with 2000's wire-work, it looks anti-natural... And then you say Ant-man/Giantman isn't original but are perfectly fine with Wolverine just running around screaming.

I think everything that isn't Magneto's escape and Knightcrawler's scene in X2 is subpar and akin to TV action.

That's the only weakness in X2 though, well, besides the costumes

 

[GasparZizou]

All action films and special films are dated and will be dated, especially those using heavy cgi action. In MOS, the robot thing that talks to Jor El looked dated in 2013, and it looks even worse now.

Actually no, the robots looks just fine, you're confusing it with the robot's renders of faces with their little metal particles, and it's supposed to look like that, because it's metal.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Actually no, the robots looks just fine, you're confusing it with the robot's renders of faces with their little metal particles, and it's supposed to look like that, because it's metal.

It's supposed to look like crappy cgi?

 

[pturtle]

CGI also needs to be choreographed and storyboarded. I give you those 2 SR scenes, which are miles better than anything in the Singerverse.

Not only hunched over, there's no animal savagery, or the slightest hint of technique, Wolverine KNOWS how to fight and moves like an animal, and Hackman is all tense and screaming and running all the time, it's just a dude throwing punches with claws in his hands.

More screaming is not better acted imo, and the camera is ok. But the camera work on the MoS and BvS fights, is a thing of beauty, Snyder knows how to frame a shot for the moment someone is going to punch/dodge/hurl, etc etc so you get the most out of that single movement.

Memorable means nothing, what's memorable to you may not be memorable to someone else, MoS fights are more memorable to me than X2 fights, but that means nothing.

Oh agree totally that Screaming doesn't equal great acting, but Jackman is one of the best actors at screaming. In the scene where he stabs the soldier, in my opinion he sells Wolverine's animalistic side, it's almost as if he was just dying to kill someone, he breathing, the veins, spit flying out of his mouth, everything was perfect to me. These films are a grounded take on the X-Men, especially X2, the mansion scene was about as perfect Wolverine action you can get. He was using his animal instincts, he was sneaking up on soldiers, he was brutal, I don't know what else you could have wanted

When I say memorable I mean iconic and X2 has stood the test of time in that department, he has iconic action scenes. Time will tell if BvS, MOS, CW and TWS will be the same but honestly outside of Cap vs Winter Soldier on the bridge, and maybe even the opening on the boat, I don't see much in any of those movies holding up later on. I remember when the first Avengers film came out, everyone was geeking out over the battle for NY scene, fast forward 4 years later and you don't see many people talking about that scene. I think the same thing is going to happen with the Airport battle for Civil War.

 

[GasparZizou]

It's supposed to look like crappy cgi?

Well yeah, how many polygons can you get with tiny metal balls?

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Well yeah, how many polygons can you get with tiny metal balls?

I don't know, but you'd think Kryptonias would have better graphics than an N64

 

[GasparZizou]

Oh agree totally that Screaming doesn't equal great acting, but Jackman is one of the best actors at screaming. In the scene where he stabs the soldier, in my opinion he sells Wolverine's animalistic side, it's almost as if he was just dying to kill someone, he breathing, the veins, spit flying out of his mouth, everything was perfect to me. These films are a grounded take on the X-Men, especially X2, the mansion scene was about as perfect Wolverine action you can get. He was using his animal instincts, he was sneaking up on soldiers, he was brutal, I don't know what else you could have wanted

When I say memorable I mean iconic and X2 has stood the test of time in that department, he has iconic action scenes. Time will tell if BvS, MOS, CW and TWS will be the same but honestly outside of Cap vs Winter Soldier on the bridge, and maybe even the opening on the boat, I don't see much in any of those movies holding up later on. I remember when the first Avengers film came out, everyone was geeking out over the battle for NY scene, fast forward 4 years later and you don't see many people talking about that scene. I think the same thing is going to happen with the Airport battle for Civil War.

But what is Iconic? If you mean iconic as people remembering them? They don't, they only remember the last MCU movie, and it doesn't matter how good X2 is, and it's great! They don't remember it, and in fact how often do you hear the "X-men back to Marvel" thing?

Memorable/Iconic, those mean nothing to me, it describes how many times someone has seen something.

I remember the "MoS isn't as Iconic as Superman II" and stuff, and I asked, "well how many times have you watched MoS?" ---- "uuuh, twice".

 

[GasparZizou]

I don't know, but you'd think Kryptonias would have better graphics than an N64

They worship dicks, give'em a break

 

[pturtle]

Sometimes less is more you say, yet in the Nightcrawler scene he hurls and punches guards and these guys spin back a couple times before falling to the ground, sometimes in opposite direction to what inertia says they should go, which is something that always happens with 2000's wire-work, it looks anti-natural... And then you say Ant-man/Giantman isn't original but are perfectly fine with Wolverine just running around screaming.

I think everything that isn't Magneto's escape and Knightcrawler's scene in X2 is subpar and akin to TV action.

That's the only weakness in X2 though, well, besides the costumes

I did say sometimes

But the Nightcrawler sequence is also memorable because it's literally at the beginning of the movie, a lot of times that can enhance the scene itself, the music, aesthetic, concept etc... Plays a part in why it's iconic.

To me, the Antman scene is simple, that's not the first time I've seen anything like that, I almost guarantee 5 years from now after we see Antman after we see another 20 more marvel movies, nobody will be talking about the scene.

The mansion invasion scene is still one of the few iconic scenes in superhero films along with the Nightcrawler opening and the Spiderman vs Doc Ock train sequence. People still talk about these scenes, there's not many in superhero films today that I feel like will be remembered.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I like the action in all the Sam Raimi Spiderman films.

ASM2 had some good stuff too.

 

[pturtle]

But what is Iconic? If you mean iconic as people remembering them? They don't, they only remember the last MCU movie, and it doesn't matter how good X2 is, and it's great! They don't remember it, and in fact how often do you hear the "X-men back to Marvel" thing?

Memorable/Iconic, those mean nothing to me, it describes how many times someone has seen something.

I remember the "MoS isn't as Iconic as Superman II" and stuff, and I asked, "well how many times have you watched MoS?" ---- "uuuh, twice".

I mean on these boards, or basically on the internet these days, sure X2 doesn't get the respect it deserves, but when you look a top 10 lists, or top 10 action scenes in articles on the Internet, those scenes almost always make the list.

Memorable/iconic means a lot to me because iconic scenes are able to transcend time. It's like Clown Prince said, everything becomes dated, but iconic scene are still appreciated because they're special. To me not much these days in the action department is special and I'm not excluding X-Men from that. DOFP has good action but outside of the Quicksilver scene, nothing else was really special.

 

[pturtle]

I like the action in all the Sam Raimi Spiderman films.

ASM2 had some good stuff too.

Yea, Raimi Spiderman films had some of the best CGI action. Spiderman 3's action was better than most superhero films today too in my opinion, the Peter Parker vs New Goblin fight, and the black Spidey vs Sandman fight was amazing.