Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Khev]

This is a great example of the condescending ******** attitude that permeates some of the sanctimonious proponents of every facet comcerning this movie.

Oh quit being so dramatic. I was just cracking myself up. I get the appeal of the "no killing" rule for Batman since to a lot of people it's the one thing that separates him from the criminal freaks that he apprehends. However your dismissive assertion that someone who does kill bad guys is then by definition a "bad guy" himself is easily refuted by, well, pretty much every movie ever made that contains some level of violence in it. If you want him to be Daredevil that's fine, that's probably his default persona after all, but for films I prefer a Batman who tries to apprehend, gets attacked back, then kills in self defense. Yeah it's grey but I like these types of stories to be a *little* more hardcore than He-Man episodes where you can NEVER, EVER kill and everything has to be wrapped up with a little PSA at the end (or long *** PSA if it's being delivered by Gary Oldman.)

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Probably because that's what happened to some New Yorkers during 9/11. A lot of them were told to stay in the buildings and to not evacuate. I think a lot of people stayed in the World Trade centers at first.

There is this vibe throughout BvS that is just so gruesome and sick. You have this almost satanic Lex Luthor doing weird sacrificial stuff in a pool with a naked man where he's cutting himself and making this abomination baby. He rants and raves like an evil little ******* about devil's and gods. You have two clinically depressed superheroes who keep having morose visions of death and futures where they're both ****ed and have lost everything. You have all this 9/11 imagery. Senate hearings that result in all the people dying in an explosion caused by a manipulated cripple that also lost his wife and kids. I got some seriously disturbing, evil vibes from it. How sick was it that Luthor intended to have his men burn Ma Kent alive like a witch? Luthor is a freak and you instantly get these morose feelings when he's in the Krtptonian ship, like he's into witch craft or something. That "communion" deleted scene is disturbing. Then man, those damn Polaroids where it looks like they beat and ***** Ma Kent, it's just messed up.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of the quippy, humorous, cotton candy tone of the Marvel movies, but there are some serious bad vibes running throughout these DC movies. It goes back to Nolan's TDKR where we had terrorist suicide bombers that wanted to destroy an innocent city (of mostly orphans) just because they themselves were twisted with a crazy ideology. Then that morphed into Man of Steel where we have Pa Kent suggesting that maybe the best thing to do is not help or save people and commits suicide just so his son isn't accidentally exposed. Zod and his Kryptonian soldiers were ruthless and we get that great Superman imagery of Kal-El falling into a pool of dead people's skulls as Zod probes his mind. Did I mention those terraforming devices lifting up metropolis citizens and smashing them into the ground repeatedly!

I don't think these movies should be "fun" or light, but it's hard not to have these cynical feelings when presented with disturbing imagery and ideas that we see almost every day in the news. Can you imagine if the Reeve Superman movies or Star Wars was a product of their times with that pessimistic attitude from a post-Vietnam world? They would have sucked and there would have been zero escapism.

Jesus, that's pretty dark when you think about. Can you imagine the director's cut or what this universe's Joker is going to be like in a Batman film?

 

[crows]

The fact that Batman is killing shouldn't be trivialized, this isn't Batman killing in his first night out, this is Batman killing after probably 20 years of not killing, 20 years of him seeing and living **** that even got HIM to break and not give a **** about criminals anymore. It's not him just not trying, it's him after 20 years of trying going to **** because of the stuff he's been through, comics have always flirted with crossing that hypothetical line, well, this is showing us what that looks like.

I like regular Batman as much as anyone, but I often wonder, does scary Batman even work if he doesn't kill? No it doesn't. Criminals develop this mentality of "I know you're gonna send me to jail, lets get it over with, what are you gonna do? I'm more scared of my boss than I am of you", hell, Batman's says "I am vengeance", it's interesting Batman has now blurred the lines between justice and vengeance FOR REAL, because otherwise there's no real dissonance, between Supes and Bats.

And about Batman being a dudebro no, just no. Plus there's nothing wrong with Luthor manipulating Batman, Luthor is MUCH smarter than Batman.

About the spear, why do people assume to know more about the topic than Batman who's been working on the kryptonite weapons himself? How do you even know kryptonite bullets would even work on Supes here? What if they're too fast to even manage to weaken Supes fast enough to pierce his skin and they just bounce off him like regular bullets? Even with Kryptonite gas Supes was still able to tank all sorts of blows and going through buildings and stuff... Now a spear, you wave it on front of him a little, make him weak, and then you kill him, why risk wasting kryptonite on bullets that may get lost and may not work? They made clear in this universe that Kryptonite is not easy to come by, unlike the comics where everyone has their own supply of kryptonite to use whenever they need to even things out.

Plus, a spear is ****ing cooler.

That's my 2 cents.

Wouldn't it make sense to make blades attached to his arms like predator?
I mean, would be more practical to be ready to stab him at any moment?

Or just a big knife? A knife would make more sense.

 

[GasparZizou]

Wouldn't it make sense to make blades attached to his arms like predator?
I mean, would be more practical to be ready to stab him at any moment?

Or just a big knife? A knife would make more sense.

Is it really that much of a difference? I don't know if finesse blades like embedded blades or knifes would be so easy, did you see the size of the laser Bruce needed to cut the kryptonite, and even then, it was a pretty clunky tip.

 

[Khev]

What did you think when Bruce Wayne saves that little girl in all that wreckage and he's like, "where's your mom" and she points up and says "there", and he looks back and sees this smoldering, destroyed, building as he clutches this sobbing kid in his arms?

I loved that moment. Here's the thing, to me these are all still fantasy films but I do actually enjoy the escalation of "realistic trappings" that seems to occur every few years. Compare straight fantasy films of the 80's like Dragonslayer or Willow to the post-Braveheart era. Peter Jackson literally staged his battles in much the same way that Mel Gibson did. Music gets all rousing, people charge, then right before the two sides clash the music cuts out and you hear the chaotic clanging of metal on metal as the camera quickly cuts from individual melee to melee. To me that's a perfect example of "realistic" film techniques being applied to fantasy, and that's how I see things like Heat or Silence of the Lambs creeping into the Nolan films, 9/11 documentary style footage in other movies, etc.

Like LOTR it's still all "fantasy" to me so I tend to key in on the archetypes being represented and not sweat the details of how any given event would play out in the actual world we live in.

 

[Destro]

Oh quit being so dramatic. I was just cracking myself up. I get the appeal of the "no killing" rule for Batman since to a lot of people it's the one thing that separates him from the criminal freaks that he apprehends. However your dismissive assertion that someone who does kill bad guys is then by definition a "bad guy" himself is easily refuted by, well, pretty much every movie ever made that contains some level of violence in it. If you want him to be Daredevil that's fine, that's probably his default persona after all, but for films I prefer a Batman who tries to apprehend, gets attacked back, then kills in self defense. Yeah it's grey but I like these types of stories to be a *little* more hardcore than He-Man episodes where you can NEVER, EVER kill and everything has to be wrapped up with a little PSA at the end.

So cinematically, you would equate John Wick to Batman. Do you think the character should be held to the same moral ambiguity as a regular assassin or revenge driven tough guy from any manner of action movie? I personally do not.

Okay. By your logic Batman, a comic book hero character, should follow the formula of attacking criminals and when they inevitably fight back because he has no actual authority over them due to his dressing up as a giant Bat and all, he kills them.

The fact that Batman doesn't kill is an integral part of what makes his journey so difficult and what makes him better AND bitter. The release he'd get from wholesale murder would be instant gratification, something which he has admitted before in the comics. And no, you cannot be a serial killer and be a "good guy". In real life or in fiction. They call those folks anti-heroes for a reason.

 

[LOTRfan85]

But it's real, gritty and DARK! Not like that sugary sweet and childish Marvel trash!!

Well if you watch the winter soldier that is not childish and dark, it's a brilliantly made film that is the polar opposite of trash and childish. And shows The writers of BVS how to write and direct a well made film

 

[Khev]

Probably because that's what happened to some New Yorkers during 9/11. A lot of them were told to stay in the buildings and to not evacuate. I think a lot of people stayed in the World Trade centers at first.

There is this vibe throughout BvS that is just so gruesome and sick. You have this almost satanic Lex Luthor doing weird sacrificial stuff in a pool with a naked man where he's cutting himself and making this abomination baby. He rants and raves like an evil little ******* about devil's and gods. You have two clinically depressed superheroes who keep having morose visions of death and futures where they're both ****ed and have lost everything. You have all this 9/11 imagery. Senate hearings that result in all the people dying in an explosion caused by a manipulated cripple that also lost his wife and kids. I got some seriously disturbing, evil vibes from it. How sick was it that Luthor intended to have his men burn Ma Kent alive like a witch? Luthor is a freak and you instantly get these morose feelings when he's in the Krtptonian ship, like he's into witch craft or something. That "communion" deleted scene is disturbing. Then man, those damn Polaroids where it looks like they beat and ***** Ma Kent, it's just messed up.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of the quippy, humorous, cotton candy tone of the Marvel movies, but there are some serious bad vibes running throughout these DC movies. It goes back to Nolan's TDKR where we had terrorist suicide bombers that wanted to destroy an innocent city (of mostly orphans) just because they themselves were twisted with a crazy ideology. Then that morphed into Man of Steel where we have Pa Kent suggesting that maybe the best thing to do is not help or save people and commits suicide just so his son isn't accidentally exposed. Zod and his Kryptonian soldiers were ruthless and we get that great Superman imagery of Kal-El falling into a pool of dead people's skulls as Zod probes his mind. Did I mention those terraforming devices lifting up metropolis citizens and smashing them into the ground repeatedly!

I don't think these movies should be "fun" or light, but it's hard not to have these cynical feelings when presented with disturbing imagery and ideas that we see almost every day in the news. Can you imagine if the Reeve Superman movies or Star Wars was a product of their times with that pessimistic attitude from a post-Vietnam world? They would have sucked and there would have been zero escapism.

I agree with all that regarding the tone, and can understand people being put off by it. Hell I think The VVitch is one of the best films in many years and I don't even know how quickly *I'll* be revisiting it due to the subject matter but for me BvS works because the heroes really do rise above it. I don't know, for whatever reason it actually tugged at my heart that Batman was carving a path through Luthor's thugs, fighting like a man possessed to rescue the mother of his former enemy, fighting with as much fervor as he would give to bring back his own mother. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, WB/Snyder made their choices and I get that they aren't for everyone, but I tend to like movies that are really dark but that don't end that way.

 

[Destro]

Well if you watch the winter soldier that is not childish and dark, it's a brilliantly made film that is the polar opposite of trash and childish. And shows The writers of BVS how to write and direct a well made film

Trust me, I know. Just being facetious.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Really? It's perfectly clear to me.

What makes you think his first kill happens in this movie?

Because he doesn't kill anyone in his first appearance in the film...that happens later, so I figured, oh...he's killing...ok.

Not here you don't, and this film didn't invent it but introduced it in THIS universe, just because you know the concept doesn't mean it's gonna work the same as it does in the comics, as it clearly doesn't.

Yes I do. They went out of their way to show how it works and how it affects Kryptonians

Because he stole Lex research? He knows what happens when you put a kryptonite blade in close proximity?

Yes, and it showed how it would instantly break the cells and penetrate the skin like it was butter. A kryptonite bullet would have the same effect as soon as it touches his skin.

It's not the amount of force you need to put behind it, that's not how kryptonite works, otherwise regular bullets would work too

Right, it's not about the force, but you asked what if the Kryptonite bullet bounces off? To which I say, it won't because if stabbing works, then a bullet should have the same effect. A normal bullet penetrates the skin because of the speed and force on a normal person, just like a knife..or a spear. Kryptonite just makes the stabbing work because he's vulnerable to that substance. If stabbing works...a bullet works.

it's the fact that we see kryptonite NOT act instantly, which makes me think bullets wont work.

They did show how Kryptonte cuts the skin immediately...it's ridiculous to think that a Kryptonite bullet would bounce off

No no no, there is still risk of losing the bullets via bad aiming and that the bullets MADE of kryptonite would not work, since it's crystal clear kryptonite is not easy to fin, why risk the only resource you have to do some damage? If you think about it, making kryptonite bullets in this uncertainty is just a stupid idea.

And there was chance that Batman never gets to the spear since it was so far away from him. There are no guarantees in a fight. However, never missed a single shot in the film...that's a fact. Is there a chance...sure, but it never happened. It's a film and Kryptonite is not real...so no reason to think making a bullet is impossible.

 

[Khev]

So cinematically, you would equate John Wick to Batman. Do you think the character should be held to the same moral ambiguity as a regular assassin or revenge driven tough guy from any manner of action movie? I personally do not.

Okay. By your logic Batman, a comic book hero character, should follow the formula of attacking criminals and when they inevitably fight back because he has no actual authority over them due to his dressing up as a giant Bat and all, he kills them.

The fact that Batman doesn't kill is an integral part of what makes his journey so difficult and what makes him better AND bitter. The release he'd get from wholesale murder would be instant gratification, something which he has admitted before in the comics. And no, you cannot be a serial killer and be a "good guy". In real life or in fiction. They call those folks anti-heroes for a reason.

I prefer Batman to be an anti-hero. I don't want him to be The Punisher where his primary goal is to execute criminals. When Affleck was trying to steal the kryptonite and the guy unloaded his machine gun at him so he responded with lethal force is a good example of the type of cinematic Batman *I* like.

 

[LOTRfan85]

Trust me, I know. Just being facetious.

Had to be sure thought you were serious

How do I describe BVS, it's like going on a drinking binge, going from pub to pub, and then by the time doomsday comes around, the film is throwing up lol. Or was the film throwing up before that point? Lol

 

[batfan08]

Wouldn't it make sense to make blades attached to his arms like predator?
I mean, would be more practical to be ready to stab him at any moment?

Or just a big knife? A knife would make more sense.

Honestly, all of those things sound like they'd look even more ridiculous than a spear. The spear was fine.

 

[spindrift]

Has Zack done a commentary on the movie for the bluray yet? I love his blurays, they're always great with extras. I'm also serious when I ask this - any chance I could somehow get an autograph? He's one of my favorite directors, I loved the film, I actually want to get him a pint because this DC fan really enjoyed his work and I don't care what anyone thinks.

Also, any idea if he has seen or if any of the cast have seen or given feedback on their HT figures?

Love to hear a Snyder commentary and he does extensive behind the scenes stuff on all his other movies on BD so i can imagine he will on this

 

[jye4ever]

This is a great example of the condescending ******** attitude that permeates some of the sanctimonious proponents of every facet comcerning this movie.

All due respect but you did provoke him with your own post, and his response wasn't all that bad, c'mon.

It was actually pretty good...He-Man.

Why were those people waiting for Bruce to give the ok the leave the building?

Because....

I thought that scene was dumb. They were basically having a meeting while an alien ship is wreaking havoc visibly out of their window.

Boss says to go! Let's go...

Americans work way too hard!

If that was France or Brasil those workers would've been gone an hour before Zod even landed!

The film fails to make that clear. Batman just kills people like they're roaches...and not once does the film make a big deal of it, especially if Batman has spent 20 years without killing, and now all of sudden he kills. Well, they should make his first kill meaningful, just like Rorschach first kill in Watchmen...that was clear, that was him crossing the line and that event having some kind of effect on the character, something this film didn't even care about if this was indeed a tired Batman who feels like crossing that line.




Because we know how Kryptonite works? This film did not invent the concept of Kryptonite. There was nothing different or new about this film's Kryptonite or the effects that it has on Kryptonians.



How does he know a stick is going to work? Or gas for that matter? He just does. The film shows how Kryptonite immediately destroys the cells. A large bullet will penetrate Sups skin faster and with more force than Batman can ever generate with his arms by stabbing him.



Again, bullets would work...especially at close range, just like the regular bullets filled with Kryptonite worked...he never lost them and they always hit the target. If anything, a bullet is a more logical weapon to use against Superman, because Superman is used to getting shot and not dogging bullets, because he's so confident that he can get shot, but since he doesn't know about Kryptonite, it would be a total surprise.

Nope, when kryptonite is subjected to the inertia of fast moving bullets the molecules take on negative ionic properties which negate its potency by subjecting its radiation to elemental reversal dilution which in essense immediately weakens the substance that can hurt kryptonians.

Probably because that's what happened to some New Yorkers during 9/11. A lot of them were told to stay in the buildings and to not evacuate. I think a lot of people stayed in the World Trade centers at first.

There is this vibe throughout BvS that is just so gruesome and sick. You have this almost satanic Lex Luthor doing weird sacrificial stuff in a pool with a naked man where he's cutting himself and making this abomination baby. He rants and raves like an evil little ******* about devil's and gods. You have two clinically depressed superheroes who keep having morose visions of death and futures where they're both ****ed and have lost everything. You have all this 9/11 imagery. Senate hearings that result in all the people dying in an explosion caused by a manipulated cripple that also lost his wife and kids. I got some seriously disturbing, evil vibes from it. How sick was it that Luthor intended to have his men burn Ma Kent alive like a witch? Luthor is a freak and you instantly get these morose feelings when he's in the Krtptonian ship, like he's into witch craft or something. That "communion" deleted scene is disturbing. Then man, those damn Polaroids where it looks like they beat and ***** Ma Kent, it's just messed up.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of the quippy, humorous, cotton candy tone of the Marvel movies, but there are some serious bad vibes running throughout these DC movies. It goes back to Nolan's TDKR where we had terrorist suicide bombers that wanted to destroy an innocent city (of mostly orphans) just because they themselves were twisted with a crazy ideology. Then that morphed into Man of Steel where we have Pa Kent suggesting that maybe the best thing to do is not help or save people and commits suicide just so his son isn't accidentally exposed. Zod and his Kryptonian soldiers were ruthless and we get that great Superman imagery of Kal-El falling into a pool of dead people's skulls as Zod probes his mind. Did I mention those terraforming devices lifting up metropolis citizens and smashing them into the ground repeatedly!

I don't think these movies should be "fun" or light, but it's hard not to have these cynical feelings when presented with disturbing imagery and ideas that we see almost every day in the news. Can you imagine if the Reeve Superman movies or Star Wars was a product of their times with that pessimistic attitude from a post-Vietnam world? They would have sucked and there would have been zero escapism.

Damn.

 

[batfan08]

Probably because that's what happened to some New Yorkers during 9/11. A lot of them were told to stay in the buildings and to not evacuate. I think a lot of people stayed in the World Trade centers at first.

There is this vibe throughout BvS that is just so gruesome and sick. You have this almost satanic Lex Luthor doing weird sacrificial stuff in a pool with a naked man where he's cutting himself and making this abomination baby. He rants and raves like an evil little ******* about devil's and gods. You have two clinically depressed superheroes who keep having morose visions of death and futures where they're both ****ed and have lost everything. You have all this 9/11 imagery. Senate hearings that result in all the people dying in an explosion caused by a manipulated cripple that also lost his wife and kids. I got some seriously disturbing, evil vibes from it. How sick was it that Luthor intended to have his men burn Ma Kent alive like a witch? Luthor is a freak and you instantly get these morose feelings when he's in the Krtptonian ship, like he's into witch craft or something. That "communion" deleted scene is disturbing. Then man, those damn Polaroids where it looks like they beat and ***** Ma Kent, it's just messed up.

I mean, I'm not a big fan of the quippy, humorous, cotton candy tone of the Marvel movies, but there are some serious bad vibes running throughout these DC movies. It goes back to Nolan's TDKR where we had terrorist suicide bombers that wanted to destroy an innocent city (of mostly orphans) just because they themselves were twisted with a crazy ideology. Then that morphed into Man of Steel where we have Pa Kent suggesting that maybe the best thing to do is not help or save people and commits suicide just so his son isn't accidentally exposed. Zod and his Kryptonian soldiers were ruthless and we get that great Superman imagery of Kal-El falling into a pool of dead people's skulls as Zod probes his mind. Did I mention those terraforming devices lifting up metropolis citizens and smashing them into the ground repeatedly!

I don't think these movies should be "fun" or light, but it's hard not to have these cynical feelings when presented with disturbing imagery and ideas that we see almost every day in the news. Can you imagine if the Reeve Superman movies or Star Wars was a product of their times with that pessimistic attitude from a post-Vietnam world? They would have sucked and there would have been zero escapism.

This is 1000% accurate and I loved every minute of it.

 

[Destro]

No but you can be an anti-hero and I'm fine with Batman being just that. I don't want him to be The Punisher where his primary goal is to execute criminals. When Affleck was trying to steal the kryptonite and the guy unloaded his machine gun at him so he responded with lethal force is a good example of the type of cinematic Batman *I* like.

I get that. But the fact that even the .50 cal that guy was unloading was doing absolutely no damage to the Batmobile. If Batman was in grave danger, I would understand but he didn't NEED to kill him or the thugs driving those other cars. That's the difference. He had the tactical, technological and firepower advantage over his opposition and he still chose to kill. To me, something is very Punisher-like to that approach.

 

[crows]

Is it really that much of a difference? I don't know if finesse blades like embedded blades or knifes would be so easy, did you see the size of the laser Bruce needed to cut the kryptonite, and even then, it was a pretty clunky tip.

Is it really that much of a difference?
Yes, because he didn't have a spear in hand, if he was that into killing him why not have the weapon ready at hand? Why not create an easier weapon to have on him in case

The only reason that stupid spear was created was only to have it ready for doomsday. That's why Snyder made it a spear, because a knife would be too small for doomsday

A knife or blade would be perfectly sized for superman, perfectly.

But.... Conveniently they needed a type of weapon for a creature that batman didn't even know was going to exist.

So yeah, batman created a perfect weapon for a monster no one knew was going to exist... Wow, how lucky.... Sooo lucky...

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Nope, when kryptonite is subjected to the inertia of fast moving bullets the molecules take on negative ionic properties which negate its potency by subjecting its radiation to elemental reversal dilution which in essense immediately weakens the substance that can hurt kryptonians.

You just made that up

 

[LOTRfan85]

I prefer Batman to be an anti-hero. I don't want him to be The Punisher where his primary goal is to execute criminals. When Affleck was trying to steal the kryptonite and the guy unloaded his machine gun at him so he responded with lethal force is a good example of the type of cinematic Batman *I* like.

I agree

That's the bats identity, it's his moral code, and it's the theme that made ledgers and bales battle for Gotham in the dark knight so special, ledger is trying to make batman cross that line, but batman won't do it. Once that has been thrown out the window, the line has been crossed what is left for batman? The villains don't stand a chance. He's got the fighting skills that could wipe out an army, if he's willing to kill anyone, batman becomes something else. What happens when he faces the joker? Where is the moral code? He can just wipe out the joker on one film, since the joker is trying to make batman cross that line. Without that what is the point of the 2? Just tying loose ends with Robin.