Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[IrishJedi]

Well, unless Luthor made a Kryptonite-powered mecha battle suit like he has many times in the comics. But it's hard to picture this Luthor doing that just yet.

 

[Victοr]

To me this is a very odd criticism. If you have Lex Luthor as the bad guy in a movie but no one who can actually withstand a punch from one of the heroes then you're going to have something like the finale of Superman Returns. If you say "well then Superman and Batman should have been the main fight" then I don't see how to good guys going at it then shaking hands would be climactic or satisfying enough. Even if you kept the "save Martha" thing and had Batman fighting off thugs while Superman takes Lex to the cops, again, pretty anticlimactic after two titans like Superman and Batman brawled.

Doomsday's (or some equivalent baddy) inclusion was absolutely necessary IMO. Now if you don't like superhero movies to end with big fights between good and bad guys and prefer Superman lifting islands or Batman just falling off a ledge with Two-Face that's fine, obviously you're going to scoff at something like BvS. But I still remember back in 2006 watching Superman Returns in the theater and being giddy to see what Lex was going to do with the Krypton shards because I assumed that he'd somehow create some monster for Superman to fight. And then he didn't. And then Superman lifted an island into space. And the movie ended. Lame.

I see no difference between Doomsday's final act appearance and the Stay Puft Marshmellow Man appearing out of the blue at the end of Ghostbusters, or the Alien Queen showing up in the final 20 minutes of ALIENS, or Maleficent suddenly becoming a dragon or the T-800 suddenly becoming a stop-motion robot. All films that feature a climax with a completely different visual (and often character like Stay Puft, the Queen, etc.) than what we had seen at any point before the climax. That's COOL. I like it when movies do that. It doesn't make a villain "shoehorned" into the plot it makes for a fun and surprising (if the bloody trailers don't spoil it) final fight.

Now you can say "Well I didn't like Doomsday. He wasn't as cool as the ALIEN Queen or any of those other final act bad guys." And that's fine. But once again they're either going to fight Luthor himself (which would be stupid and last half a second) or Luthor's going to need some sort of muscle bound proxy to fight for him. Enter Doomsday.

Thing is, those characters were, for the most part, "surprises" and OCs. Doomsday is a, I wouldn't say beloved, rather "important", comic-book character, who most, myself included, felt wasn't utilized greatly. He was a mix between Doomsday ("appearance" and motive) and Nu52 Bizzaro (creation). Having Scoot be Metallo would've been the best of both worlds, as you'd allow both Batman and Superman to play a role, and keep Doomsday for a later day.

 

[Khev]

Well, unless Luthor made a Kryptonite-powered mecha battle suit like he has many times in the comics.

Yes, they could have done the same finale as Iron Man 1 and have the bad guy put on a big suit for the final fight. Neither option (bad guy suddenly transforms vs. summons buff warrior) is inherently better than the other, and neither is an example of last minute shoehorning.

 

[karamazov80]

The way the film was built up (and sold), the ending should have been Batman V. Superman. Doomsday wasn't essential to the story. Luthor's plot to kill Supes would have made just as much sense trying to get Batman to kill him, without adding this contingency to the mix. Not every movie needs to end with superheroes teaming up to fight ultra powered enemies where they punch each other silly for 10 minutes, no matter how much the MCU may make us want to think that.

Doomsday was just a means of helping to set up the next movie, and it wasn't done very well, because it was stuck in when the movie didn't have enough time to do it justice. With the other movies you point out, the ending was a logical extension of the movie and worked perfectly well, in terms of pacing and the narrative structure. Ghostbusters led up to the encounter with Gozer, and Stay Puft was just a visceral, funny way of adding texture to that scene. Their fight wasn't with Stay Puft. Aliens led up to the encounter with the Queen, Terminator led up to the ultimate encounter with the Endoskeleton, etc. This movie led up to Superman V. Batman. Then said, "let's give Bruce a religious epiphany in the last second and add another 30 minutes to better set up the next movie."

Few are going to use Superman Returns as an example of how to do a superhero movie the right way But it does make for a nice strawman. But sure, if you ask if Superman Returns or Superman V Batman had a better ending villain fight, I'll go with the latter.

 

[Khev]

Doomsday sux. Kryptonite islands are better.

To each his own man, to each his own!

 

[RIDDICK]

Well, unless Luthor made a Kryptonite-powered mecha battle suit like he has many times in the comics. But it's hard to picture this Luthor doing that just yet.

He could create Metallo which would serve as a basic idea for his mech suit later in the series.

 

[IrishJedi]

I always thought Doomsday was a goofy character. I personally don't have a problem with them using him already, and briefly.

 

[a-dev]

I understand that there needed to be a common enemy scenario for the end but it really shouldn't have been Doomsday. That story is too big a deal to happen this early with a Superman people don't even like yet. When we saw him in the trailer my initial reaction was that this was a waste and that didn't change once I saw the film.

 

[Khev]

I understand that there needed to be a common enemy scenario

Don't tell that to karamazov! He thinks the first Avengers film should have ended after the heroes argued with each other on the helicarrier.

 

[WWEJedi]

Would people ever like this Superman though? I think him coming back at the right moment to save the Justice League will gain him more fans.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

To me this is a very odd criticism. If you have Lex Luthor as the bad guy in a movie but no one who can actually withstand a punch from one of the heroes then you're going to have something like the finale of Superman Returns. If you say "well then Superman and Batman should have been the main fight" then I don't see how to good guys going at it then shaking hands would be climactic or satisfying enough. Even if you kept the "save Martha" thing and had Batman fighting off thugs while Superman takes Lex to the cops, again, pretty anticlimactic after two titans like Superman and Batman brawled.

Doomsday's (or some equivalent baddy) inclusion was absolutely necessary IMO. Now if you don't like superhero movies to end with big fights between good and bad guys and prefer Superman lifting islands or Batman just falling off a ledge with Two-Face that's fine, obviously you're going to scoff at something like BvS. But I still remember back in 2006 watching Superman Returns in the theater and being giddy to see what Lex was going to do with the Krypton shards because I assumed that he'd somehow create some monster for Superman to fight. And then he didn't. And then Superman lifted an island into space. And the movie ended. Lame.

Not all climatic ending have to be physical, which TDK had with the final fight against the Joker, but then it had one final ending that was more emotional, not physical. The Batman vs Superman fight wasn't anti climatic in TDKReturns because it was an epic battle, unlike the one in BVS. It was both physical and emotional because the reason for the fight was meaningful, unlike BVS.

I agree that it's always nice to see Sups fight someone of equal strength, but Doomsday was a bad choice and to waste the death of Sups with a character that doesn't even look like DD, was a bad move, even if the fight was entertaining. Hopeman didn't earn that death...it was too early for him to die. He's not even a beloved character yet...and he's already dead.

Personally, I would have used Metallo as the final villain, and instead of having that guy lose his legs and later blow himself up, I would have turned him into Metallo. Lex finds him, and turns him into a weapon that wants to kill Superman...and he had plenty of reasons to kill Sups, but guess what, Superman can't take him on by himself because Metallo uses Kryptonite as his main weapon, which he does in the comics and cartoons. It also gives him a connection to Batman/Bruce since the guy used to work for him.

I see no difference between Doomsday's final act appearance and the Stay Puft Marshmellow Man appearing out of the blue at the end of Ghostbusters, or the Alien Queen showing up in the final 20 minutes of ALIENS, or Maleficent suddenly becoming a dragon or the T-800 suddenly becoming a stop-motion robot. All films that feature a climax with a completely different visual (and often character like Stay Puft, the Queen, etc.) than what we had seen at any point before the climax. That's COOL. I like it when movies do that. It doesn't make a villain "shoehorned" into the plot it makes for a fun and surprising (if the bloody trailers don't spoil it) final fight.

There's a difference, those character or monsters had a build up, they weren't just put in some space ship and at the very end the space ship poops out a monster that looks nothing like the original comic character. Also, T 800 and Stay Puft were brand new creations, which is easier to accept, than say a famous comic villain with a unique look, that now looks nothing like he supposed to....and it's there as part of some crazy plan.

Now you can say "Well I didn't like Doomsday. He wasn't as cool as the ALIEN Queen or any of those other final act bad guys." And that's fine. But once again they're either going to fight Luthor himself (which would be stupid and last half a second) or Luthor's going to need some sort of muscle bound proxy to fight for him. Enter Doomsday.

Metallo was the obvious choice...and they had the perfect character to do it with and the perfect build up for him to be the final "monster."

 

[karamazov80]

To each his own man, to each his own!

I will say this--given your affection for Age of Ultron, your support of this movie makes perfect sense to me. And I don't mean that as a dig, I just mean that these are very similar movies to my eyes. Neither is boring, both have a lot going on, and as with Ultron, I'm sure subsequent viewings do help with your understanding of what was happening.

I always thought Doomsday was a goofy character. I personally don't have a problem with them using him already, and briefly.

Yeah, he's a '90s character. The less we see of him the better. Deadpool is the rare exception where a character was made in that creative vacuum of a decade (by one of the worst offenders of the time no less!) and became something entertaining despite that.

But what Doomsday stands for--Death of Superman--is something that should have come later if at all IMO.

 

[Mr. Green]

People worry too much. Superman will be back. Movie pace move faster than comics. They'll be more entertainment to come.

 

[EVILFACE]

*adds Evilface to the Ignore list*

 

[abake]

Great post there!

How old are your kids by the way? I remember seeing a 6(ish) year old dressed up as Superman in my screening and thinking that this movie might not be for them...

Thanks man!

They're 12 (boy) and 15 (girl).

 

[YoNoSe]

Even though they overdid the destruction in MOS I think BvS's ending would have resonated more if Superman died in front of the people he was saving. Batman and Wonder Woman looked a little "that awkward moment when Superman dies" while Lois bawled.

 

[Khev]

Not all climatic ending have to be physical, which TDK had with the final fight against the Joker, but then it had one final ending that was more emotional, not physical.

Agreed which is why I used the exact same example you did, TDK's ending with Bruce and Two-Face having a conversation and then falling off the ledge. And if that's what you wanted for BvS then of course adding a team-up battle at the end would be a disappointment.

I agree that it's always nice to see Sups fight someone of equal strength, but Doomsday was a bad choice and to waste the death of Sups with a character that doesn't even look like DD, was a bad move, even if the fight was entertaining.

And if that's your take because Doomsday is important to you and you wanted him to be handled differently then of course that makes sense. But saying his involvement was shoehorned in at the last second when Lex was shown to be actively trying to create him from the beginning third of the movie to the end is a bit silly especially if you're going to give a pass to things like the Stay Puft Marshmellow Man or Maleficent turning into a dragon which had no foreshadowing of any kind until they just appeared out of thin air.

Hopeman didn't earn that death...it was too early for him to die. He's not even a beloved character yet...and he's already dead.

I think you can have an "iffy" character die and make them cooler through their death, like Boromir or Gorman for instance. I think after all the controversy surrounding Clark the best way to actually *make* him that beloved character finally just might have been to kill him.

Personally, I would have used Metallo as the final villain, and instead of having that guy lose his legs and later blow himself up, I would have turned him into Metallo. Lex finds him, and turns him into a weapon that wants to kill Superman...and he had plenty of reasons to kill Sups, but guess what, Superman can't take him on by himself because Metallo uses Kryptonite as his main weapon, which he does in the comics and cartoons. It also gives him a connection to Batman/Bruce since the guy used to work for him.

Interesting idea. I'm not familiar enough with DC to know who Metallo is but depending on his design that could have been really cool to upgrade a secondary bad guy who'd been a constant in the film and already had a chip on his shoulder against both heroes prior to becoming enhanced.

Also, T 800 and Stay Puft were brand new creations, which is easier to accept, than say a famous comic villain with a unique look, that now looks nothing like he supposed to....and it's there as part of some crazy plan.

And that seems to be the main *real* complaint, that Doomsday just wasn't as cool or accurate as people imagined that he should be. I, like a few others here, never really connected with him as a comic character and so I was fine with him just being a big dumb brute.

 

[Khev]

I will say this--given your affection for Age of Ultron, your support of this movie makes perfect sense to me. And I don't mean that as a dig, I just mean that these are very similar movies to my eyes. Neither is boring, both have a lot going on, and as with Ultron, I'm sure subsequent viewings do help with your understanding of what was happening.

Can't say that I agree that AoU and BvS are similar solely on account of them "having a lot going on." Maybe similar fan divisiveness, though AoU was certainly the darling to critics that BvS, well, wasn't.

 

[GodzillaSpawn]

Also the first half of the movie is pretty much centered on clark and bruce which I thought was a brave move. And their scenes were also fun in their own ways (bruce meeting Diana, bruce bantering with Alfred, clark at the newspaper, clark and lois in the tub)

All those scenes were like 2 or 3 minutes long each lol

I thought the only poignant, interesting take on a character was when they showed the montage about how divided the world was on superman and it showed how he was treated as a god.

The action scenes were pretty good as they damn well needed to be.

But this movie didn't have much of a soul. And I couldn't take lex seriously. The movie kept changing his motivations. Aside from that his cartoonist behavior went past charming and interesting straight into obnoxious and forced.



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[bboy]

All those scenes were like 2 or 3 minutes long each lol

I suppose, but isn't a movie just a bunch of 2-3 minute scenes? And that lex luthor party felt like a lengthy 2-3 mins to me.