Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (March 24th, 2016)

[Thundercleese]

No, the bookstore comment was in response to your claim that I mentioned Frodo as some sort of "straw man." Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo representing three facets of God (King/Spirit of Guidance/Sacrificial Lamb) is a real thing that books have been published about. Superman's parallels to Christ being a baby sent from above to light the world, etc., is also a real thing. Point being people sometimes make heroes that are Messianic in nature and sometimes they're happy and cheery and sometimes they're more melancholy or flawed but it doesn't inherently mean that the author of said character has some sort of contempt if they convey the latter qualities.

Actually Superman is more rooted in the Jewish faith and the Messianic debate is weak when compared to Moses. But no, your right that comment wasn't at all condescending.

 

[RIDDICK]

I agree that this is a different version and if they want to go the Marvel route and give Sups problems and issues too, that's fine, but then don't tell me his all about Hope and wearing HOPE on his chest, when instead of being inspirational....and as Jor El said, "give people an ideal to strive towards", he lacks that inherent rightness that the classic version is known for. If he's like us, and he doubts himself and struggles against his urge to do the right thing out of fear of what people might think or do, then tone it down with the whole hope thing.

Pretty much. The Jesus imagery and parallels are the worst offenders.

 

[IrishJedi]

Even in the darkest of times there should be Hope. That's kind of the point. There are people in these movies that do see him as that, and the "Savior" angle is poured on a little heavy, at times. But he himself isn't quite sure yet, mainly because of how messed up the world is. He's not even sure if his existence is helping or hurting. That's what his conversation with Lois on the balcony was all about. Later, his conversation with his father (which is all in his imagination, of course) reaffirms that he actually does love this world, as flawed as it is, because he can see its potential in his love for Lois. This kind of reminds me of Dr. Manhattan in WATCHMEN when he sees, through Laurie, that every living person is a miracle of thermodynamics... and thus worth saving.

So he returns, and eventually sacrifices himself to save Lois and the world. But some of that conflict within him obviously remains and has yet to be resolved.

It's darker, deeper and more unsettling than the usual, classic Supes, yes. But it's not that they "don't get" or "don't understand" Superman... They're just trying something a little different is all. It's an interpretation, it's not meant to replace Superman and be the defacto version for all time. I think when people realize that they may calm down a tad.

 

[Khev]

Actually Superman is more rooted in the Jewish faith and the Messianic debate is weak when compared to Moses.

Wait are you saying that Superman should be more like Moses (who lost his temper and committed murder) than Jesus? Interesting...

 

[RIDDICK]

It's darker, deeper and more unsettling...

The problem is not with the dorker-derper-moody interpretation, just that the inconsistency of it all makes the character unlikable.

 

[IrishJedi]

I don't know, I think the character himself has been pretty consistent in these films for the most part, it's how everyone around him views him that varies widly, and he reflects that at times.

That said, this movie was missing a scene like the interrogation room in MOS. I still love that scene.

 

[Khev]

I think the most borderline heartbreaking scene in BvS was when he painfully said "No one stays good in this world Lois" before flying up to face Batman.

 

[crows]

Exactly, that's where Snyder is taking him. They're adapting INJUSTICE, where Superman turns on the people of Earth after Lois, his key link to mankind, dies. Most people before watching BvS, expected a straightforward JLA film where Supes leads the pack into battle. That's cool but nowhere near as compelling as Superman failing to live up to the expectations and ideals of both his fathers. Instead of being a good man, he'll become a bad one. Instead of leading the people of Earth into the sun, he'll lead them into darkness. The Manhattan example is great because basically after BvS, Supes is where Manhattan was when he left to Mars. The difference is Manhattan didn't have to grieve Silk Specter. Superman will have to grieve Lois and it will break him psychologically.

Its completely unorthodox for a cinematic adaptation of Superman or better yet for a JLA film, but that's what I think makes it so desirable for me as a fan of the character. Where Nolan showed us the beginning, fall and rise of Batman, Snyder aims to dissect Supes in a similar way.

There was a simple, popcorny way of doing Superman in this new series, but we've seen that before [in five films] so I'm glad they went the INJUSTICE route instead.

I understand what you are saying but it still bothers me that we technically never got a Superman that was tiny bit joyful or at least a little bit cheery. Im not talking about campy superman saving cats from trees because that would be stupid,
But in Both MOS and BVS Clark and Superman were always at best just thoughtful and wondering, or just I guess....calm, the best we got from him was a calm Superman and I guess if they are going with the Injustice Superman that's fine I guess, but I wish we at least got a superman that was happy before the darkness comes. I didn't want a calm and thoughtful superman, I wish Snyder at least gave us a superman that laughed or something. I know he smiled in these movies but I dont think this guy ever laughed in both movies, At least I cannot recall any moment where he actually laughs at something. (you might think something like laughing is ridiculous and nonsensical and I am just nitpicking for the sake of hate, But I am not, Laughing is actually one of the strongest emotions humans laugh. it is the universal sign for happiness. It is the thing that can make the most scary person seem inviting and approachable, a wide smile or a laugh can be a very powerful thing"
I know this sounds silly but I wish this superman at least had one moment where he genuinely laughed with cheer and happiness at something, with full joy of life.

The dark stuff could have come later, instead we are going to get a kind of moody superman from the beginning that died and will come back and turn evil... thats pretty tragic

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The Snyder Superman hasn't been through what Cap has been through. That's another reason Snyder wanted Batman to lead the JLA. He's been at it for 20 years. The Snyder Superman can eventually become a Cap-like figure of pure moral restraint, civic duty and honor. He needs to go through some **** first though, to the chagrin of many Donner Superman fans.

That's what I like about MOS, and why I didn't get the hate for MOS, because he was literally Superman for one day and way in over his head, and made plenty of rookie mistakes, tactical mistakes, but considering he had never been in a fight in his life..because he can't hurt anyone, and all of a sudden he's fighting a bunch of gods and trying to save the whole world, he did the best he could and there was potential for him to grow and be that classic Superman, which is something a lot people didn't get about the film. He literally killed the "last" of his kind, so I think that experience was enough...as you say **** to become a Cap-like figure of pure moral restraint. I just feel that this film took a step backwards with that character...and now he's dead, in his second film...dead I really get a feeling like they don't have a long term plan, and they just make things up as they go, if it sounds cool, but they don't stop and think, is it what's best for the character in the story.

So right and decent people don't make mistakes? I agree that Evans Cap is closer to Reeve in his ideology and convictions. And I do like his character more than Cavill's Superman. But Cavill Superman isn't "failing" at being Reeve. He's suceeding at being Cavill.

He made plenty of mistakes in MOS and that was fine. I think he succeeded at being Cavill in MOS...he was likable.

How come Keaton doesn't have to follow West's moral code but dammit Cavill needs to follow in the footsteps of Reeve?

Burton was never a comic guy, so his films were his vision of what he thought Batman should be and look like, and the best example of that is Batman Returns. I don't think the West and Keaton comparison is a good example, because West's Batman was a very accurate depiction of the silver age comics Batman, and that version of Batman was very different from what the character was intended to be and what the character became after the silver age. As far as Sups, I wasn't just talking about Reeve...I was talking about the character of Sups in general. Unlike Batman, I would say that Superman's ideals, personality, and "moral code" hasn't change much since the 1950's probably, which can be boring, but when it's done right it can work. The new 52 Sups was a bit of a jerk though...but hey, DC is rebooting the comics again with "Rebirth."

 

[Khev]

I know this sounds silly but I wish this superman at least had one moment where he genuinely laughed with cheer and happiness at something, with full joy of life.

Or maybe after trashing the Batmobile and telling Bruce that the Bat is dead he could have then said, "Now I hope this hasn't turned you off to driving, statistically speaking it's still the safest way to travel by land."

 

[Khev]

I don't think the West and Keaton comparison is a good example, because West's Batman was a very accurate depiction of the silver age comics Batman, and that version of Batman was very different from what the character was intended to be and what the character became after the silver age. As far as Sups, I wasn't just talking about Reeve...I was talking about the character of Sups in general. Unlike Batman, I would say that Superman's ideals, personality, and "moral code" hasn't change much since the 1950's probably

I guess my point is that West and Keaton are about as far removed from each other as you can get but they're each still celebrated for their respective alternate takes on the character. How come that is only "allowed" on account of the fact that Batman has evolved more in the comics than Superman has? One character gets to have alternate takes on film as long as those alternate versions appear in print first?

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I agree that there have been some genuine missteps with this new Superman. Goyer's writing or Snyder having him be smug in the interrogation room and with the downed satelitte. I do think those were real goofs. All I'm arguing against is the notion that Snyder hates the character and/or wants him dead. I do think the BvS Supes IS a decent hero and good guy though, even in spite of some of the mistakes he makes on screen. He probably could have done more at the Capitol but he was clearly rattled and upset. He made a mistake in a time of weakness as opposed to looking around with smug douchery and then flying over to Lois to make out with her or something.

Oh, I don't think Snyder hates Sups at all.

 

[SNIKT1950]

I understand what you are saying but it still bothers me that we technically never got a Superman that was tiny bit joyful or at least a little bit cheery. Im not talking about campy superman saving cats from trees because that would be stupid,
But in Both MOS and BVS Clark and Superman were always at best just thoughtful and wondering, or just I guess....calm, the best we got from him was a calm Superman and I guess if they are going with the Injustice Superman that's fine I guess, but I wish we at least got a superman that was happy before the darkness comes. I didn't want a calm and thoughtful superman, I wish Snyder at least gave us a superman that laughed or something. I know he smiled in these movies but I dont think this guy ever laughed in both movies, At least I cannot recall any moment where he actually laughs at something. (you might think something like laughing is ridiculous and nonsensical and I am just nitpicking for the sake of hate, But I am not, Laughing is actually one of the strongest emotions humans laugh. it is the universal sign for happiness. It is the thing that can make the most scary person seem inviting and approachable, a wide smile or a laugh can be a very powerful thing"
I know this sounds silly but I wish this superman at least had one moment where he genuinely laughed with cheer and happiness at something, with full joy of life.

The dark stuff could have come later, instead we are going to get a kind of moody superman from the beginning that died and will come back and turn evil... thats pretty tragic

The more charming, wiser Superman can come after INJUSTICE.

At that point he's pretty damn weathered and most importantly humbled which is what Snyder has cited as his main goal for this version.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I guess my point is that West and Keaton are about as far removed from each other as you can get but they're each still celebrated for their respective alternate takes on the character. How come that is only "allowed" on account of the fact that Batman has evolved more in the comics than Superman has? One character gets to have alternate takes on film as long as those alternate versions appear in print first?

That's a good point. There shouldn't be a problem with having multiple versions of a character, but I think when it comes to a movie using a familiar brand, something that's iconic, and something that's pretty well established, it's going to be a problem when the new version deviates from what's familiar, especially when it's been done pretty well already, but at the same time they try to sell it as a definitive take or something familiar. Like I've said, MOS is the best Superman film so far, IMO. Reeve might be the definitive Sups, but his films aren't my favorites.

 

[Destro]

Why do folks keep bringing up this INJUSTICE bs? Nothing of what that Knightmare vision is, reflects any part of the INJUSTICE storyline other than Lois being killed. To me that "wait and see" approach doesn't excuse **** movies and wasted potential.

 

[SNIKT1950]

Why do folks keep bringing up INJUSTICE

Because they clearly are adapting it for JLA.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Because they clearly are adapting it for JLA.

It's a weird choice isn't? Of all the stories they can start with, they pick one from a video game, and a story that has Superman as a villain. It's an odd choice if you ask me, especially for the general audience. Although, it is different from the more obvious and traditional story line of heroes fighting a traditional villain. Sups as a villain is a good twist, but it doesn't help the character from MOS who is about hope. At least Sups will look badass if he wears the black suit with the silver logo.

 

[Destro]

Because they clearly are adapting it for JLA.

Clearly, how? Because it's the only story you can remember where Superman is "evil"? Lol, oh boy.

 

[SNIKT1950]

It's a weird choice isn't? Of all the stories they can start with, they pick one from a video game, and a story that has Superman as a villain. It's an odd choice if you ask me, especially for the general audience. Although, it is different from the more obvious and traditional story line of heroes fighting a traditional villain. Sups as a villain is a good twist, but it doesn't help the character from MOS who is about hope. At least Sups will look badass if he wears the black suit with the silver logo.

It makes for a compelling and tragic journey for Supes, that truly defines him in the end as an emissary for hope and mankind.

Snyder from the start (he says this in the MOS bluray) wanted to humble him and bring him down to our level. Because why else would he give a **** about us?

His "death" in BvS makes him experience mortality firsthand. His loss of Lois down the line will make him feel alone. He'll turn to [the] Darkseid for comfort. All that's left is the confrontation with the JLA. That's the Empire moment between Vader and Luke in ESB. At that point he's experienced everything a God shouldn't - leading to his redemption by turning on Darkseid. Compassion for his people brings him back.

Then he will truly have become (matured into) the man Pa Kent & Jor-El hoped he could be that will stand with mankind in the sun.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

It makes for a compelling and tragic journey for Supes, that truly defines him in the end as an emissary for hope and mankind.

Snyder from the start (he says this in the MOS bluray) wanted to humble him and bring him down to our level. Because why else would he give a **** about us?

His "death" in BvS makes him experience mortality firsthand. His loss of Lois down the line will make him feel alone. He'll turn to [the] Darkseid for comfort. All that's left is the confrontation with the JLA. That's the Empire moment between Vader and Luke in ESB. At that point he's experienced everything a God shouldn't - leading to his redemption by turning on Darkseid. Compassion for his people brings him back.

Then he will truly have become (matured into) the man Pa Kent & Jor-El hoped he could be that will stand with mankind in the sun.

He already felt alone in MOS...but whatever, they better not screw all that if that's indeed what's going to happen.